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Questions On Being Disarmed While OCing

Scalce

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May 10, 2010
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Greenville, South Carolina, USA
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First, I am not a troll but this is my first post as I am new to the board.

I couldn't really find a better location to post this so I just picked General Discussion.

I have been reading alot about Open Carry on other forums and wanted to learn more about why people believe it is or is not a good idea so I have been reading some threads.

I don't want to get into a debate over CCing or OCing but I do have a few questions which I would be concerned about if I was allowed to OC in SC.

What would happen if someone snuck up behind you and tried to disarm you while OCing and you shot them?

Do you have every legal right to fire at themeven if you do not know theyhave aweapon?

I know that some states, including SC,will only legally allow you to shoot someone if you believe they will cause you or someone else severe bodily harm, dismemberment, or death.

Does the possibility that an attacker may use your own weapon to harm or kill you, someone you are with, or innocent bystanders legally stand up to the definition of proper use of deadly force?

Would you be liable if someone did disarm you and used your weapon to injure or kill someone else?

I know that someone can just as easily get a concealed firearm away from you and you are not going to stop and make sure that an attacker is armed either way but they would not necessarilybe going directly for the gun if it was properly concealed compared to if you were targeted specifically because you had a firearm visible while OCing.

Personally I would be on edge while OCing even if I had training on stopping someone from disarming me and had a holster that had some type of retention device like a Serpa or something similar that officers use.

I know that officers have a higher percentage rate ofbeingdisarmed since they are more likely to deal with criminals on a daily basis but I would still be concerned with the possibilty no matter how slim.

Thanks
 

usmcbess

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Labadie, Missouri, USA
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I would advise only drawing your weapon on them and or using hand to hand defense. However if they persist upon trying to disarm you or assualt you and you have reasonable feelings of imminent injury or death then I would use lethal force.
 

Hunterdave

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Apr 8, 2010
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Bunkie, Louisiana, USA
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You cannot compare a LEOs carrying to OC as LEO confront criminals, have them
boxed in. That's when any struggle over their weapon occurs. Criminals don't just run up out of the blue an try to wrestle their weapon away. A BG while looking for prey,
if he has any gray matter at all, will reject anyone armed and pick the most helpless
he can find.
A hypothetical; if you had to cross a field as a matter of life and death, and on that field you had to fight one of four people, a man with bare fist, a man with a stick, a man a knife, a man with firearm. Which would you choose? Obvious right? A criminal
comes to the same conclusion. He's gonna pick the easiest target he can find.
As to SC law , I cannot speak, but her in Louisiana,I believe that if a BG tried to
wrestle your weapon away and got shot in the process, well a BG just got his
comeuppance, unless you shot him in the back while running away.

Just my opinion. IANAL
 

Dreamer

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Grennsboro NC
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Before we address ANY of your questions, it would be VERY helpful if you put your location on your profile, Laws vary widely from state to state, and it's nearly impossible to give a thoughtful answer to ANY gun-law question if we don't know what state you're writing from...

But you mentioned SC, so lets start there.

In SC, open carry is not legal in most public places, period. Even if you have an SC CWP.

http://www.usacarry.com/south_carolina_concealed_carry_permit_information.html


Now, on to your remark about Police getting disarmed. This almost ALWAYS occurs during a struggle, when an LEO is attempting to subdue or apprehend someone who doesn't want to be arrested.

To my knowledge, there is not a SINGLE recorded incident of an OCer having their firearm grabbed by a criminal.

The only people on record who take handguns from law-abiding OCers without their consent are police officers...
 

Scalce

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Greenville, South Carolina, USA
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Dreamer wrote:
Before we address ANY of your questions, it would be VERY helpful if you put your location on your profile, Laws vary widely from state to state, and it's nearly impossible to give a thoughtful answer to ANY gun-law question if we don't know what state you're writing from...

But you mentioned SC, so lets start there.

In SC, open carry is not legal in most public places, period. Even if you have an SC CWP.

http://www.usacarry.com/south_carolina_concealed_carry_permit_information.html


Now, on to your remark about Police getting disarmed. This almost ALWAYS occurs during a struggle, when an LEO is attempting to subdue or apprehend someone who doesn't want to be arrested.

To my knowledge, there is not a SINGLE recorded incident of an OCer having their firearm grabbed by a criminal.

The only people on record who take handguns from law-abiding OCers without their consent are police officers...

I updated my profile so now my location is there.

I did state that I was in SC and I am not currently allowed to OC but I know you may have missed it in my post.

I figured most people would jump all over the fact that you will most likely not get targeted by a criminal because you are OCing and not really focus on my questions.

I think using the rationale that it only happens to cops, most criminals are chicken shits (which is mostly true), andthere is no recorded event of it ever happening or unlikely is being kind of oblivious to the possibility and ramifications if it did happen.
 
Joined
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across Death's Door on Washington Island, Wisconsi
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Scalce wrote:
andthere is no recorded event of it ever happening or unlikely is being kind of oblivious to the possibility and ramifications if it did happen.
The road to hell is paved with what-ifs.

The possibility exists but the probability is so slim that it has notoriously not yet happened. The ramifications are thus anile imaginary hypothetical and hysterical.

Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. I use a SERPA for OC.
 

SouthernBoy

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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
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Dreamer wrote:
Before we address ANY of your questions, it would be VERY helpful if you put your location on your profile, Laws vary widely from state to state, and it's nearly impossible to give a thoughtful answer to ANY gun-law question if we don't know what state you're writing from...

But you mentioned SC, so lets start there.

In SC, open carry is not legal in most public places, period. Even if you have an SC CWP.

http://www.usacarry.com/south_carolina_concealed_carry_permit_information.html


Now, on to your remark about Police getting disarmed. This almost ALWAYS occurs during a struggle, when an LEO is attempting to subdue or apprehend someone who doesn't want to be arrested.

To my knowledge, there is not a SINGLE recorded incident of an OCer having their firearm grabbed by a criminal.

The only people on record who take handguns from law-abiding OCers without their consent are police officers...
Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him. There seems to be some more info about this along the lines that the guy was not practicing good awareness and may have purposely entered areas where there was a chance of an encounter. However, I am not that familiar with the details.
 
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SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

[sub]Personal attack deleted[/sub]
 

Scalce

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Greenville, South Carolina, USA
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We are not talking about pigs flying here.

With the number of OCers increasing I would say that the probability of someone getting their firearm taken away also increases.

I am not criticizing OCing but some proponents obviously jump on anyone who brings up questions or concerns with anything surrounding OC.

I guess I will keep my "anile imaginary hypothetical and hysterical" thoughts to myself and let the more realistic people keep living in their dream world.
 

SouthernBoy

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

[sub]Personal attack deleted[/sub]
Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

([sub]Personal attack deleted better be deleted)

[/sub]
 
Joined
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across Death's Door on Washington Island, Wisconsi
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SouthernBoy wrote:
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

[sub]Personal attack deleted[/sub]
Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

([sub]Personal attack deleted better be deleted)

[/sub]
I did not ask and I don't care, others may.

[sub]Personal attack deleted[/sub] Present company excepted.
 

hp-hobo

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Jun 24, 2008
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399
Location
Manchester State Forest, SC
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SouthernBoy wrote:
I may be incorrect, I often am, but as I recall from reading on this forum the situation didn't occur as originally reported.

I seem to remember that this individual did in fact call the cops about having his gun stolen, but as it turns out he fabricated the whole thing in hopes of getting an insurance payout for a gun that he had lostor damaged. I do not however have any documentation to back that up.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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Whatcom County
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My suggestion if you are able is to meet up with some OC'ers in a neighboring state where it is legal.

You don't have to OC but having a cup of coffee or getting a bite to eat with others OCing you will see almost immediately that there really is nothing to it.

Every self defense situation is different, and you just have to use good judgement especially when it comes to lethal force. A crazed 300 pound 6'5'' man trying to take my gun vs. a 90 pound hippy lady I can foresee different outcomes for those scenarios.
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
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sudden valley gunner wrote:
My suggestion if you are able is to meet up with some OC'ers in a neighboring state where it is legal.

You don't have to OC but having a cup of coffee or getting a bite to eat with others OCing you will see almost immediately that there really is nothing to it.

Every self defense situation is different, and you just have to use good judgement especially when it comes to lethal force. A crazed 300 pound 6'5'' man trying to take my gun vs. a 90 pound hippy lady I can foresee different outcomes for those scenarios.
hey, I am 6'6" 300 pounds , I use a Serpa retention holster...Lot's of luck getting my gun:lol:
 

cscitney87

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Lakewood, Colorado, USA
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Use 100% protection. Strap the holster securely to your Belt. A simply clip pocket holster doesn't mechanically secure. Once you are mechanically secure to your person you need to mechanically secure your pistol. A preformed holster that Fits your pistol indeed keeps it in place, but you need better. Get a holster with a strap that comes over the rear of your pistol and snaps together snug. Adjust the straps so that the snap Faces your body. That way nobody can get the pistol out of the holster and the only release is between the pistol and your side. The bad guy will try but will not succeed before you are able to reply. Due to your situational awareness- you only have to secure your pistol for about .30 milliseconds before I'm sure you'll have a knee or a fist in there somewhere.
 

SouthernBoy

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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
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Master Doug Huffman wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him.
The only essential detail needed is a verifiable citation. I am sure that you know that there is/has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a verifiable snatch from an LAC.

Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview.

[sub]Personal attack deleted[/sub]
Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

([sub]Personal attack deleted better be deleted)

[/sub]
I did not ask and I don't care, others may.

[sub]Personal attack deleted[/sub] Present company excepted.
Hey, you know I'm just playin' with ya'. No malice intended.
 

Scalce

New member
Joined
May 10, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Greenville, South Carolina, USA
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I thank you guys for the posts that actually try to address my concerns and questions politely.

I am dissapointed in the attitude that some members have towards other gun lovers who are just trying to understand the OC movement and what it stands for.

I think part of that defensive attitude is what has been putting alot of people off.

We need all gun owners to work together.

I'll keep reading here and learning though.

Keep fighting for what you believe in.
 

rmansu2

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Mar 12, 2009
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Baton Rouge, Louisiana, USA
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...... will only legally allow you to shoot someone if you believe they will cause you or someone else severe bodily harm, dismemberment, or death......

I would say if they are grabbing for your firearm they are trying to cause you "severe bodily harm".

I usually carry an open-assisted blade clipped in my front pocket which someone may catch in their forearm. (at least I hope I could react that fast). If not, more likely turn toward them with an elbow.

You would have a serious problem with the law that you may or may not be able to overcome.
 

Dreamer

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Grennsboro NC
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SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes there is. Centreville, VA, around 4:00am a few years ago. A man out walking his dog was accosted and had his OC'd gun taken from him. There seems to be some more info about this along the lines that the guy was not practicing good awareness and may have purposely entered areas where there was a chance of an encounter. However, I am not that familiar with the details.
You're speaking of this incident which occurred in 2006, I presume:

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm


As it turns out, this was a false report, and the fellow in fact, was later found by FCPD to have the gun in his house hidden in a drawer. This has been verified by several OCDO members who live in FFX County and have spoken with FCPD on this issue.

FCPD just never updated the report. I'm still looking for more info on this case. Fairfax County's website isn't very user-friendly, and it doesn't appear that there is any simple way to get to older, archived police reports...

I have written an email to FCPD, to get the "official story" in writing, so we can post it, and OFFICIALLY put this myth to rest...
 
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