Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36

Thread: south Sacramento oc'er, security concerned

  1. #1
    Regular Member leitung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, USA
    Posts
    151

    Post imported post

    I wanted to post on here about an issue we as security officers are having with someone open carrying in sf supermarket at 65th and Stockton blvd. I work for the security company that provides security services for the supermarket. At the supermarket, we have no problem allowing persons carrying a handgun in accordance with ca law. However my concern is that this person was reported to me as flashing some kind of badge and telling a couple of officers that he was a cop. This person does not allow us examine the credentials and before has told us that he was not law enforcement and that his son was a sac pd officer. Then afterward he started with the badge thing. I have educated the officers that oc is legal and not to harass persons oc'ing. My concern solely lies with the flashing of fake credentials and leading people to believe that one is an Leo when intact they are not. I have instructed the officers to contact law enforcement if the person flashes a badge again. I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here. A message to that person, we have no problem with you open carrying, but do not flash any kind of badges or tell us you are a cop if you are not. This sort of activity is illegal and hurts the oc cause which lots of people are fighting hard for. We openly carry guns in the store too, if you want to meet with me to discuss this I am the fat white guard with the smith and wesson 4006.
    I don't work at the store but I am in frequent contact with all of the guards who do. They know who I am.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    642

    Post imported post

    Are you sure he is telling people he's a cop? He can wear a badge and flash it all day long, so long as he never says he is a cop or acts in a way that would make most people think he's a cop.
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

  3. #3
    Regular Member leitung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, USA
    Posts
    151

    Post imported post

    He did one occasion tell some he was a cop according to one guard again this is second hand info though

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Harrah, Oklahoma
    Posts
    769

    Post imported post

    I am a guard down here in San Diego and I always have my recorder going. I'm just waiting for it to save my butt.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...
    Stolen from ConditionThree because it can't be stressed enough.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Oakley, California, United States
    Posts
    637

    Post imported post

    leitung, first let me say thank you for trying to talk sense into someone. Hopefully he see's this as a life lesson and will take head.

    second, as security officers you have the right to ask him to leave your store any time you feel you need to. For the safety of all involed. however you do not have the right, as a security officer, to do an 'E' check. Do not even try to inspect or take his gun. YOU do not have that right, or that power.

    If I were to walk into your store and be confronted by one of your officers, I would leave if asked, but NO ONE is touching my gun w/o a LEO present. I will take any and all actions to protect myself, and my property, from any non sworn leo's.



  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    71

    Post imported post

    Iopencarry wrote:
    leitung, first let me say thank you for trying to talk sense into someone. Hopefully he see's this as a life lesson and will take head.

    second, as security officers you have the right to ask him to leave your store any time you feel you need to. For the safety of all involed. however you do not have the right, as a security officer, to do an 'E' check. Do not even try to inspect or take his gun. YOU do not have that right, or that power.

    If I were to walk into your store and be confronted by one of your officers, I would leave if asked, but NO ONE is touching my gun w/o a LEO present. I will take any and all actions to protect myself, and my property, from any non sworn leo's.

    Dude, you aresupposed to take the blue pill EVERY DAY!!!,,,,,,,,,,Take a breath and relax, the guy said nothing about checking your gun or violating your rights.

    Don't create an issue where there is none......

    This guy is being about as open and friendly as is humanly possible.....why put him on the defensive.



  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Oakley, California, United States
    Posts
    637

    Post imported post

    his quote, "person does not allow us examine the credentials "

    if he was even asking to see this, he was going beyong what is job lets him. How much more is he trying?



  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    71

    Post imported post

    Iopencarry wrote:
    his quote, "person does not allow us examine the credentials "

    if he was even asking to see this, he was going beyong what is job lets him. How much more is he trying?

    I see what you are saying and you are correct that only a LEO can do an E Check (I strongly feel the same way), but I think that he just meant that if the guy was claiming to be a cop, he wanted him to show ID to prove it........

    Badges really mean very little, it's all about the ID card.......If you are going to claim to be a cop and you are going to act like a cop, then you had better be able to back it up with proper ID......

    This guy seems to have a good attitude, but I have run into security guards that thought thatthey were cops. They are not. Just like with LEO's, a few bad security guards can spoil it for the rest that do a good job.



  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Oakley, California, United States
    Posts
    637

    Post imported post

    I agree this guy does seam to be better them most. As I did thank him for trying to open the eyes for the oc'er.

    but where do you see anywhere, that a LEO has to show ID when asked? It would be prudent if he did, but he does not have to. Just like you or I do not have to.

    I am not in any way saying the oc'er is right in 'playing cop', and if he does, the REAL cops needto be called.

    All I am saying, is that a security officer needs to know what he/she can ask and what they can not.

    I would leave a store if asked, I have no problem with that, but I will not be asked nor will I show id by a store employee, for oc'ing.





  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lamma Island, HK
    Posts
    964

    Post imported post

    leitung wrote:
    I wanted to post on here about an issue we as security officers are having with someone open carrying in sf supermarket at 65th and Stockton blvd. I work for the security company that provides security services for the supermarket. At the supermarket, we have no problem allowing persons carrying a handgun in accordance with ca law. However my concern is that this person was reported to me as flashing some kind of badge and telling a couple of officers that he was a cop. This person does not allow us examine the credentials and before has told us that he was not law enforcement and that his son was a sac pd officer. Then afterward he started with the badge thing. I have educated the officers that oc is legal and not to harass persons oc'ing. My concern solely lies with the flashing of fake credentials and leading people to believe that one is an Leo when intact they are not. I have instructed the officers to contact law enforcement if the person flashes a badge again. I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here. A message to that person, we have no problem with you open carrying, but do not flash any kind of badges or tell us you are a cop if you are not. This sort of activity is illegal and hurts the oc cause which lots of people are fighting hard for. We openly carry guns in the store too, if you want to meet with me to discuss this I am the fat white guard with the smith and wesson 4006.
    I don't work at the store but I am in frequent contact with all of the guards who do. They know who I am.
    Agreed. It is illegal to even wear clothing with badges on it with the intention to communicate that you are a cop, let alone saying it.

    I agree and appreciate your support for open carry as well as your desire to keep things honest. If he goes around claiming to be a cop again or displaying the badge call the cops.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    84

    Post imported post

    Iopencarry wrote:
    I All I am saying, is that a security officer needs to know what he/she can ask and what they can not.


    Security guard can ask you pretty much anything they want. If you don't answer to their satisfaction they might then ask you to leave. What they can't do is force you to show them something like a badge or an e-check if you refuse. All they can do is show you to the door.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    542

    Post imported post

    sjalterego wrote:
    All they can do is show you to the door.
    [/quote]

    So maybe our new friend here can go ahead and do his job, in lieu of stalking around on forums talking about some guy at a store...that (and do I have this right?) he doesn't even work at?

    I appreciate you looking to keep your....or in this case...other people's customers...safe, but this OCer isn't threatening people, if someone is impersonating a police officer, then do something about it, call the authorities. I don't think I've ever met or heard of an OCer toting around a badge like some of the accounts of "ccw badge" holders.

    I hope that he ends up being off duty LEO.

  13. #13
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Orange County, California, USA
    Posts
    912

    Post imported post

    First, welcome to OCDO.

    Second, it is Security Guard, not Officer. Officers are duly permitted, sworn and qualified individuals in service to the public.

    Third, its good that you came here asking for details. Just like we tell Open Carriers to use a voice recorder in the event of an encounter, I would suggest that you instruct your coworkers to use theirs when they encounter this individual. If they suspect that he is impersonating a police officer, they are well within their rights to ask him to leave or call the local LEOs to the scene. Keep those recorders running! If it turns out he's not then he's got his own issues to deal with. If he is, be prepared for possibly a verbal lashing for wasting the local PDs time. I'm sure you know already, but do not try to detain the individual, absolutely DO NOT attempt to disarm him (if he is an off-duty LEO it could possibly not end well for your co-workers), and do not try to compel him to identify. All three of those things are beyond the authority of us mere citizens when someone is not proving to be a clear threat or clearly violate the law.

    Ultimately my suggestion: Leave 'em be unless he starts harrassing people.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Sacramento, California, United States
    Posts
    18

    Post imported post

    from the BSIS web site.
    http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/poa.pdf

    A GUARD’S AUTHORITY TO QUESTION PEOPLE
    A security guard is an agent of the owner of the private property and, in this role, can exercise the owner’s right to ask people on the (owner’s) property what they are doing there, who they are, etc. If they refuse to answer the questions or if their answers are not satisfactory, the guard may ask them to leave. If they do not leave, the guard may arrest them for trespassing, and should call local law enforcement without unreasonable delay.
    When on property and not employed as a guard, your authority is no greater than any other person’s. On the other hand, your authority to question people is greater on property where you are on duty as a guard.

    In my opinion observe and report. Just use good sense.
    keep a factual indecent log,and use the good advice others here have given.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , California, USA
    Posts
    560

    Post imported post

    This whole thread is silly from start to finish. If there is a suspicion that he's flashing a badge and claiming to be a cop, then instruct the guards on site to contact PD to come out and check him out next time he's rumored to be doing so. I'm 100% certain that the local PD will be very interested in checking to see if someone is claiming to be a police officer if they aren't. Also, if he's telling your guards this, then wtf are they doing by not contacting PD to double check? If it were me, I'd most certainly call to verify an off-duty/plainclothes who is flashing a badge at my workplace and trying to throw his weight around. Worst case scenario...he turns out to be a cop, and gets all grumpy that he was checked on and shops elsewhere.

    The OC is only marginally related. Much like if he were wearing a hat.

  16. #16
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Stanislaus County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,586

    Post imported post

    leitung wrote:
    ...I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here...
    What makes you think that? I'm not saying all of us here are perfect, but I can't imagine any of our "active" members doing something THIS stupid.

    After working in the industry for several years, I've found the average guard is FAR below average in the brains department. I'm suspicious that your co-workers may be "stretching" the story in an effort to convince themselves they have reason to dislike the "man with a gun." The job is boring 99% of the time; some guards' imaginations run wild.

    Of course, if this guy is impersonating, I hope he is caught. If he's one of the members here, we need to "cull the herd." If he's not a member here, we need to get him off the streets before he makes us all look like kooks.

    Keep us updated.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    71

    Post imported post

    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    leitung wrote:
    ...I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here...
    What makes you think that? I'm not saying all of us here are perfect, but I can't imagine any of our "active" members doing something THIS stupid.

    After working in the industry for several years, I've found the average guard is FAR below average in the brains department. I'm suspicious that your co-workers may be "stretching" the story in an effort to convince themselves they have reason to dislike the "man with a gun." The job is boring 99% of the time; some guards' imaginations run wild.

    Of course, if this guy is impersonating, I hope he is caught. If he's one of the members here, we need to "cull the herd." If he's not a member here, we need to get him off the streets before he makes us all look like kooks.

    Keep us updated.
    At one time I would have agreed with you, but with open carry becoming so high profile recently, it has attracted a lot more people. Many of these people are ill prepared to open carry and lack some of the same desire to "do it right' that many veteran members here do.

    To some of the newer people, open carry is a cool new thing they saw on TV and they try it to in order to gain attention or just to rebel a bit. The whole “why” and “how” is not a big part of the picture. Next week it will be bungee jumping.

    I have noticed this behavior in some (not many) of the newer members here; both in the attitudes displayed (at least in writing) and the quality of writing structure (I'm sorry if that sounds elitist or snotty, but spell and grammar check is on every computer). My spelling and grammar are horrible, but before I put something out I do my best to see that it is logical (at least to me) and presentable.

    The ones that write in here are probably going to be towards the top of the ‘doing it right crowd” simply because they took the time to look for information and sign up.

    There is a whole other crowd out there that got most if not all of their info from a 5 minute news cast.



  18. #18
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    SoCal, , USA
    Posts
    979

    Post imported post

    I'm pretty much with Greg on this - we've hadquite a fewidiots show up on the forum lately. I can't count the number of times I've said to myself, "Dear God I hope this person isn't actually OCing right now"

    I miss the 'old days' when someone would be on the forum for months before they actually OCd in public.

  19. #19
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Stanislaus County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,586

    Post imported post

    greg36f wrote:
    ...The ones that write in here are probably going to be towards the top of the ‘doing it right crowd” simply because they took the time to look for information and sign up.

    There is a whole other crowd out there that got most if not all of their info from a 5 minute news cast.
    The key word in what I wrote was "active." I guess that term could be applied subjectively, but to me that means they post here regularly. I can't think of anybody from South Sac who stands out as idiotic who posts here regularly.

    So, I think we are saying the same thing here, or perhaps just disagree on something subjective.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    71

    Post imported post

    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    greg36f wrote:
    ...The ones that write in here are probably going to be towards the top of the ‘doing it right crowd” simply because they took the time to look for information and sign up.

    There is a whole other crowd out there that got most if not all of their info from a 5 minute news cast.
    The key word in what I wrote was "active." I guess that term could be applied subjectively, but to me that means they post here regularly. I can't think of anybody from South Sac who stands out as idiotic who posts here regularly.

    So, I think we are saying the same thing here, or perhaps just disagree on something subjective.
    I agree,,,,,Most of the posts that make me go OMG:shock:are from people who have one or two posts.....

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Tahoe, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    109

    Post imported post

    So a guard (or owner) can ask a person OC'ng to leave. At what point is it wrong?

    Can you refuse service to blacks? Women? Handicapped people? Juveniles? People wearing certain clothing?

    The business has opened the doors to the public, and in essence created a public place. They should have no right to restrict who comes in as long as they let the public in.

    A gun owner, exercising a fundamental right in CA shouldn't need to comply with a request to leave any more than a black man, simply because of their skin color or what they're carrying.

  22. #22
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Stanislaus County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,586

    Post imported post

    merle wrote:
    So a guard (or owner) can ask a person OC'ng to leave. At what point is it wrong?

    Can you refuse service to blacks? Women? Handicapped people? Juveniles? People wearing certain clothing?

    The business has opened the doors to the public, and in essence created a public place. They should have no right to restrict who comes in as long as they let the public in.

    A gun owner, exercising a fundamental right in CA shouldn't need to comply with a request to leave any more than a black man, simply because of their skin color or what they're carrying.
    I think business owners should be able to discriminate in any way they choose. I don't think it's a good business decision. The free market might allow such a business to exist, but competing businesses will do much better by not discriminating.

    I don't think it's the proper function of government to make life "fair." Governments only reasonable purpose (IMO) is to ensure the rights of the People, NOT infringe on rights. That means the right to decide who I allow on my private property, who I choose to contract with, who I associate with, etc.

    Again, I don't think it's good business to do so, but each person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of their property in the fashion they choose. If you don't like the way they do business, shop elsewhere.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    49

    Post imported post

    demnogis wrote:
    Second, it is Security Guard, not Officer. Officers are duly permitted, sworn and qualified individuals in service to the public.
    You may want to inform BSIS that their nomenclature is incorrect and have them and the State Legislature change all the references to "Officer" in the BPC. After all, they must be wrong, according to you, if they use the term "Officer" to refer to anyone other than a "duly permitted, sworn and qualified individuals in service to the public."




  24. #24
    Regular Member March Hare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Arridzona - Flatlander
    Posts
    355

    Post imported post

    merle wrote:
    So a guard (or owner) can ask a person OC'ng to leave.* At what point is it wrong?

    Can you refuse service to blacks?* Women?* Handicapped people?* Juveniles?* People wearing certain clothing?

    The business has opened the doors to the public, and in essence created a public place.* They should have no right to restrict who comes in as long as they let the public in.*

    A gun owner, exercising a fundamental right in CA shouldn't need to comply with a request to leave any more than a black man, simply because of their skin color or what they're carrying.
    The store/business, although open to the public, is still private property.
    The business has the right to refuse service to, or ask anyone they want to leave.
    If the person doesn't leave, they're guilty of trespass.

    -MH
    $2 Bill - Calling Card of the 2A Movement
    If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
    Seriously, who is John Galt?
    Vires et honestas

  25. #25
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Orange County, California, USA
    Posts
    912

    Post imported post

    Old Timer wrote:
    demnogis wrote:
    Second, it is Security Guard, not Officer. Officers are duly permitted, sworn and qualified individuals in service to the public.
    You may want to inform BSIS that their nomenclature is incorrect and have them and the State Legislature change all the references to "Officer" in the BPC. After all, they must be wrong, according to you, if they use the term "Officer" to refer to anyone other than a "duly permitted, sworn and qualified individuals in service to the public."*
    You're right. I should inform them. I forgot to include military personnel too. A plastic badge and taser does not an officer make.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •