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south Sacramento oc'er, security concerned

leitung

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Jun 25, 2008
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151
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Port Orchard, Washington, USA
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I wanted to post on here about an issue we as security officers are having with someone open carrying in sf supermarket at 65th and Stockton blvd. I work for the security company that provides security services for the supermarket. At the supermarket, we have no problem allowing persons carrying a handgun in accordance with ca law. However my concern is that this person was reported to me as flashing some kind of badge and telling a couple of officers that he was a cop. This person does not allow us examine the credentials and before has told us that he was not law enforcement and that his son was a sac pd officer. Then afterward he started with the badge thing. I have educated the officers that oc is legal and not to harass persons oc'ing. My concern solely lies with the flashing of fake credentials and leading people to believe that one is an Leo when intact they are not. I have instructed the officers to contact law enforcement if the person flashes a badge again. I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here. A message to that person, we have no problem with you open carrying, but do not flash any kind of badges or tell us you are a cop if you are not. This sort of activity is illegal and hurts the oc cause which lots of people are fighting hard for. We openly carry guns in the store too, if you want to meet with me to discuss this I am the fat white guard with the smith and wesson 4006.
I don't work at the store but I am in frequent contact with all of the guards who do. They know who I am.
 

dirtykoala

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Are you sure he is telling people he's a cop? He can wear a badge and flash it all day long, so long as he never says he is a cop or acts in a way that would make most people think he's a cop.
 

Ca Patriot

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Maybe your security guards should wear audio/video recording devices like the OC community does. I suggest Apple iphones. Thats what I use.
 

chewy352

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Harrah, Oklahoma
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I am a guard down here in San Diego and I always have my recorder going. I'm just waiting for it to save my butt.
 

Iopencarry

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Mar 9, 2010
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Oakley, California, United States
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leitung, first let me say thank you for trying to talk sense into someone. Hopefully he see's this as a life lesson and will take head.

second, as security officers you have the right to ask him to leave your store any time you feel you need to. For the safety of all involed. however you do not have the right, as a security officer, to do an 'E' check. Do not even try to inspect or take his gun. YOU do not have that right, or that power.

If I were to walk into your store and be confronted by one of your officers, I would leave if asked, but NO ONE is touching my gun w/o a LEO present. I will take any and all actions to protect myself, and my property, from any non sworn leo's.
 

greg36f

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Iopencarry wrote:
leitung, first let me say thank you for trying to talk sense into someone. Hopefully he see's this as a life lesson and will take head.

second, as security officers you have the right to ask him to leave your store any time you feel you need to. For the safety of all involed. however you do not have the right, as a security officer, to do an 'E' check. Do not even try to inspect or take his gun. YOU do not have that right, or that power.

If I were to walk into your store and be confronted by one of your officers, I would leave if asked, but NO ONE is touching my gun w/o a LEO present. I will take any and all actions to protect myself, and my property, from any non sworn leo's.


Dude, you aresupposed to take the blue pill EVERY DAY!!!,,,,,,,,,,Take a breath and relax, the guy said nothing about checking your gun or violating your rights.

Don't create an issue where there is none......

This guy is being about as open and friendly as is humanly possible.....why put him on the defensive.
 

greg36f

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Iopencarry wrote:
his quote, "person does not allow us examine the credentials "

if he was even asking to see this, he was going beyong what is job lets him. How much more is he trying?
I see what you are saying and you are correct that only a LEO can do an E Check (I strongly feel the same way), but I think that he just meant that if the guy was claiming to be a cop, he wanted him to show ID to prove it........

Badges really mean very little, it's all about the ID card.......If you are going to claim to be a cop and you are going to act like a cop, then you had better be able to back it up with proper ID......

This guy seems to have a good attitude, but I have run into security guards that thought thatthey were cops. They are not. Just like with LEO's, a few bad security guards can spoil it for the rest that do a good job.
 

Iopencarry

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I agree this guy does seam to be better them most. As I did thank him for trying to open the eyes for the oc'er.

but where do you see anywhere, that a LEO has to show ID when asked? It would be prudent if he did, but he does not have to. Just like you or I do not have to.

I am not in any way saying the oc'er is right in 'playing cop', and if he does, the REAL cops needto be called.

All I am saying, is that a security officer needs to know what he/she can ask and what they can not.

I would leave a store if asked, I have no problem with that, but I will not be asked nor will I show id by a store employee, for oc'ing.
 

Theseus

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Jul 6, 2008
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Lamma Island, HK
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leitung wrote:
I wanted to post on here about an issue we as security officers are having with someone open carrying in sf supermarket at 65th and Stockton blvd. I work for the security company that provides security services for the supermarket. At the supermarket, we have no problem allowing persons carrying a handgun in accordance with ca law. However my concern is that this person was reported to me as flashing some kind of badge and telling a couple of officers that he was a cop. This person does not allow us examine the credentials and before has told us that he was not law enforcement and that his son was a sac pd officer. Then afterward he started with the badge thing. I have educated the officers that oc is legal and not to harass persons oc'ing. My concern solely lies with the flashing of fake credentials and leading people to believe that one is an Leo when intact they are not. I have instructed the officers to contact law enforcement if the person flashes a badge again. I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here. A message to that person, we have no problem with you open carrying, but do not flash any kind of badges or tell us you are a cop if you are not. This sort of activity is illegal and hurts the oc cause which lots of people are fighting hard for. We openly carry guns in the store too, if you want to meet with me to discuss this I am the fat white guard with the smith and wesson 4006.
I don't work at the store but I am in frequent contact with all of the guards who do. They know who I am.
Agreed. It is illegal to even wear clothing with badges on it with the intention to communicate that you are a cop, let alone saying it.

I agree and appreciate your support for open carry as well as your desire to keep things honest. If he goes around claiming to be a cop again or displaying the badge call the cops.
 

sjalterego

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Iopencarry wrote:
I All I am saying, is that a security officer needs to know what he/she can ask and what they can not.

Security guard can ask you pretty much anything they want. If you don't answer to their satisfaction they might then ask you to leave. What they can't do is force you to show them something like a badge or an e-check if you refuse. All they can do is show you to the door.
 

heliopolissolutions

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sjalterego wrote:
All they can do is show you to the door.
[/quote]

So maybe our new friend here can go ahead and do his job, in lieu of stalking around on forums talking about some guy at a store...that (and do I have this right?) he doesn't even work at?

I appreciate you looking to keep your....or in this case...other people's customers...safe, but this OCer isn't threatening people, if someone is impersonating a police officer, then do something about it, call the authorities. I don't think I've ever met or heard of an OCer toting around a badge like some of the accounts of "ccw badge" holders.

I hope that he ends up being off duty LEO.
 

demnogis

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Jul 21, 2008
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Orange County, California, USA
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First, welcome to OCDO.

Second, it is Security Guard, not Officer. Officers are duly permitted, sworn and qualified individuals in service to the public.

Third, its good that you came here asking for details. Just like we tell Open Carriers to use a voice recorder in the event of an encounter, I would suggest that you instruct your coworkers to use theirs when they encounter this individual. If they suspect that he is impersonating a police officer, they are well within their rights to ask him to leave or call the local LEOs to the scene. Keep those recorders running! If it turns out he's not then he's got his own issues to deal with. If he is, be prepared for possibly a verbal lashing for wasting the local PDs time. I'm sure you know already, but do not try to detain the individual, absolutely DO NOT attempt to disarm him (if he is an off-duty LEO it could possibly not end well for your co-workers), and do not try to compel him to identify. All three of those things are beyond the authority of us mere citizens when someone is not proving to be a clear threat or clearly violate the law.

Ultimately my suggestion: Leave 'em be unless he starts harrassing people.
 

Rev_sole

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Sep 24, 2009
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Sacramento, California, United States
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from the BSIS web site.
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/poa.pdf

A GUARD’S AUTHORITY TO QUESTION PEOPLE
A security guard is an agent of the owner of the private property and, in this role, can exercise the owner’s right to ask people on the (owner’s) property what they are doing there, who they are, etc. If they refuse to answer the questions or if their answers are not satisfactory, the guard may ask them to leave. If they do not leave, the guard may arrest them for trespassing, and should call local law enforcement without unreasonable delay.
When on property and not employed as a guard, your authority is no greater than any other person’s. On the other hand, your authority to question people is greater on property where you are on duty as a guard.

In my opinion observe and report. Just use good sense.
keep a factual indecent log,and use the good advice others here have given.
 

NightOwl

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Jul 26, 2008
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, California, USA
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This whole thread is silly from start to finish. If there is a suspicion that he's flashing a badge and claiming to be a cop, then instruct the guards on site to contact PD to come out and check him out next time he's rumored to be doing so. I'm 100% certain that the local PD will be very interested in checking to see if someone is claiming to be a police officer if they aren't. Also, if he's telling your guards this, then wtf are they doing by not contacting PD to double check? If it were me, I'd most certainly call to verify an off-duty/plainclothes who is flashing a badge at my workplace and trying to throw his weight around. Worst case scenario...he turns out to be a cop, and gets all grumpy that he was checked on and shops elsewhere.

The OC is only marginally related. Much like if he were wearing a hat.
 

CA_Libertarian

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Jul 18, 2007
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Stanislaus County, California, USA
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leitung wrote:
...I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here...
What makes you think that? I'm not saying all of us here are perfect, but I can't imagine any of our "active" members doing something THIS stupid.

After working in the industry for several years, I've found the average guard is FAR below average in the brains department. I'm suspicious that your co-workers may be "stretching" the story in an effort to convince themselves they have reason to dislike the "man with a gun." The job is boring 99% of the time; some guards' imaginations run wild.

Of course, if this guy is impersonating, I hope he is caught. If he's one of the members here, we need to "cull the herd." If he's not a member here, we need to get him off the streets before he makes us all look like kooks.

Keep us updated.
 

greg36f

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CA_Libertarian wrote:
leitung wrote:
...I am pretty sure that this person is active on these boards so that's why I thought I would bring it up here...
What makes you think that? I'm not saying all of us here are perfect, but I can't imagine any of our "active" members doing something THIS stupid.

After working in the industry for several years, I've found the average guard is FAR below average in the brains department. I'm suspicious that your co-workers may be "stretching" the story in an effort to convince themselves they have reason to dislike the "man with a gun." The job is boring 99% of the time; some guards' imaginations run wild.

Of course, if this guy is impersonating, I hope he is caught. If he's one of the members here, we need to "cull the herd." If he's not a member here, we need to get him off the streets before he makes us all look like kooks.

Keep us updated.
At one time I would have agreed with you, but with open carry becoming so high profile recently, it has attracted a lot more people. Many of these people are ill prepared to open carry and lack some of the same desire to "do it right' that many veteran members here do.

To some of the newer people, open carry is a cool new thing they saw on TV and they try it to in order to gain attention or just to rebel a bit. The whole “why” and “how” is not a big part of the picture. Next week it will be bungee jumping.

I have noticed this behavior in some (not many) of the newer members here; both in the attitudes displayed (at least in writing) and the quality of writing structure (I'm sorry if that sounds elitist or snotty, but spell and grammar check is on every computer). My spelling and grammar are horrible, but before I put something out I do my best to see that it is logical (at least to me) and presentable.

The ones that write in here are probably going to be towards the top of the ‘doing it right crowd” simply because they took the time to look for information and sign up.

There is a whole other crowd out there that got most if not all of their info from a 5 minute news cast.
 

mjones

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I'm pretty much with Greg on this - we've hadquite a fewidiots show up on the forum lately. I can't count the number of times I've said to myself, "Dear God I hope this person isn't actually OCing right now"

I miss the 'old days' when someone would be on the forum for months before they actually OCd in public.
 

CA_Libertarian

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greg36f wrote:
...The ones that write in here are probably going to be towards the top of the ‘doing it right crowd” simply because they took the time to look for information and sign up.

There is a whole other crowd out there that got most if not all of their info from a 5 minute news cast.
The key word in what I wrote was "active." I guess that term could be applied subjectively, but to me that means they post here regularly. I can't think of anybody from South Sac who stands out as idiotic who posts here regularly.

So, I think we are saying the same thing here, or perhaps just disagree on something subjective.
 
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