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Thread: MWAG call open carry in a bar with CPL

  1. #1
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    I have still not carried openly inside a bar with my cpl yet, as I am not 100% confident I can successfully convince a LEO who wants to take me to jail due to him being misinformed.

    here is the scenario I envision in my head.

    MWAG call while I am in a bar, police arrive, wash rinse repeat does not work, as they have themselves convinced that I am breaking a law.

    how should I advance this interaction?

    go to jail? cite mcl numbers? give a trifold?

    what would be the proper way to keep my weapon from being confinscated, and or going to jail?

    AS YOU and I know, I know it is legal to carry in a bar with a cpl, if it is openly carried, my question is specificly how to deal with a LEO encounter if wash, rinse, repeat is not going to keep you out.

    solutions and on topic is appriciated.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Step 1.) Limber up
    Step 2.) Stick head between ass.
    Step 3.) Kiss ass goodbye.



    Sorry, to be honest, I've wondered the same thing, because even if an officer knows OC is legal, which seems to be a rarity at times, the chances of them knowing that OC with a CPL is admissible in a PFZ is probably like trying to find a gold mine in my backyard.

    I'm curious to see what the others have to say to be honest. I can guarantee that the end result will with almost 100% certainty, result in the need to hire a lawyer though.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Very simple:

    1. SHUT MOUTH
    2. PAY BAIL
    3. CALL ATTORNEY




  4. #4
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Well, I was pretty close.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    No, yours is what you do first. :what:

    Mine is the expected results.

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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    I have still not carried openly inside a bar with my cpl yet, as I am not 100% confident I can successfully convince a LEO who wants to take me to jail due to him being misinformed.

    here is the scenario I envision in my head.

    MWAG call while I am in a bar, police arrive, wash rinse repeat does not work, as they have themselves convinced that I am breaking a law.

    how should I advance this interaction?

    go to jail? cite mcl numbers? give a trifold?

    what would be the proper way to keep my weapon from being confinscated, and or going to jail?

    AS YOU and I know, I know it is legal to carry in a bar with a cpl, if it is openly carried, my question is specificly how to deal with a LEO encounter if wash, rinse, repeat is not going to keep you out.

    solutions and on topic is appriciated.
    This happened when we were at the Plymouth Ice Festival. We simply explained the law to the officer and he called it in on his radio. Most likely spoke to an on call prosecutor and let us go after he realized he was incorrect in thinking it was illegal.

    Simply giving the officer a trifold and telling him to contact the on call prosecutor if he has any questions. Just because there are many uniformed officers shouldnt be a reason to not open carry. I put a trifold in my back pocket where ever I go just for that purpose. This way I dont have to rely on my memory to explain the wording of the law to the officers. In this case he didnt even ask for our ID's or CPL's but if he did I would have provided it for him so we could be on our way quicker.

    To be honest I OC almost everywhere now and I've not had a single LEO encounter since the ice festival and that was many months ago. I OC daily picking up my son at daycare, bike riding on nice days, etc.

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    Regular Member Recoil88's Avatar
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    What is this trifold i keep hearign about?
    In a situation when seconds count-The police will be there in minutes.

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    Recoil88 wrote:
    What is this trifold i keep hearign about?
    http://miopencarry.org/Attachments/M...chure_FLAG.PDF

    The revised brochure will be available soon.

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    My advice is the same for all police abuse where lives aren't in danger. Get your recorders going, ask if you're being detained, leave if no, all other answers mean call 911 and ask for the help of the state police because you're being unlawfully detained.

    There is no law being violated if you properly OC as a CPL holder while in a bar, so it is therefore impossible for the cops to have RAS to stop you. During an unlawful stop, I personally do not feel it is appropriate to give the police a legal lesson, because they wouldn't be stopping you if they knew how to do their jobs. Remember, nothing you can say will help you, and they will only use bullying ass hole intimidation tactics to get you to talk their ears off. Do NOT do them that favor.

    If you are someone who is experienced with stops, wash rinse repeat arguably can be used as an evidence gathering strategy, but it won't really help you on the spot that I've ever seen or heard of. It will either gather evidence if you're really good, or get you to say things you shouldn't.
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    Tell him that you've broken no law and that if he arrests you, he'll be violating you 4th Amendment rights, which he swore to uphold, and therefore has no qualified immunity from a Title 42 USC 1983 lawsuit, which will be forthcoming with him as a named defendant.

    Or, perhaps he would like to call his Sgt. or PA first to ask what statute you are violating.

    Then shut-up.

  11. #11
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    if I am ocing in the bar, do I need to disclose immediately i am a cpl holder if I am ocing?

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Recoil88 wrote:
    What is this trifold i keep hearign about?
    http://miopencarry.org/Attachments/M...chure_FLAG.PDF

    The revised brochure will be available soon.
    yea, i didn't get the revised up last night. i will tonight! :-) my head was burried in the finances last night :-( i didn't go to bed till 230am... i think..

    **yawn**

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Hey thats ok :celebrate
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    I have still not carried openly inside a bar with my cpl yet, as I am not 100% confident I can successfully convince a LEO who wants to take me to jail due to him being misinformed.

    here is the scenario I envision in my head.

    MWAG call while I am in a bar, police arrive, wash rinse repeat does not work, as they have themselves convinced that I am breaking a law.

    how should I advance this interaction?

    go to jail? cite mcl numbers? give a trifold?

    what would be the proper way to keep my weapon from being confinscated, and or going to jail?

    AS YOU and I know, I know it is legal to carry in a bar with a cpl, if it is openly carried, my question is specificly how to deal with a LEO encounter if wash, rinse, repeat is not going to keep you out.

    solutions and on topic is appriciated.
    this is basicaly what I was asking in the "open carry experiences thread.

  15. #15
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    if I am ocing in the bar, do I need to disclose immediately i am a cpl holder if I am ocing?
    No, however, one of our members recently learned he was getting a charge for 'fail to disclose' because his side was turned away from the officer and/or had his jacket over the firearm, and the officer claimed he did not see his firearm. The man in question's jacket is not long enough to even remotely cover the firearm.

    Though not required, it might be a good idea, however I would specifically say "I am a CPL holder, and am openly carrying a firearm." That way there is absolutely NO question whether or not you are open carrying or concealed carrying, because you've flat out said at the very beginning of the encounter that you are open carrying.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    No, however, one of our members recently learned he was getting a charge for 'fail to disclose' because his side was turned away from the officer and/or had his jacket over the firearm, and the officer claimed he did not see his firearm. The man in question's jacket is not long enough to even remotely cover the firearm.
    Reminds me of a Dean Greenblatt quote from theszerdi's case. Was something like "so you're saying that if a person isn't carrying a concealed weapon that he is immediately required to disclose that he is carrying a concealed pistol?"

    I haven't heard about this case, but I sincerely hope that the cop in question loses his or her job, and that the department and court loses its ass in a law suit. Being as it's an imperfect world, it is of course more reasonable to expect that a color of law complaint will be filed with the FBI. In any case, I hope they get creamed.

    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Actually, I was referring to TheSzerdi's second case...

    He got into a car accident, and the cop that showed up said he was failing to disclose, when he was OCing, claiming that his jacket covered his gun, when I've SEEN the jacket in question, and know how and where he carries, and the jacket isn't even long enough to cover even the hammer of the gun... Wtf? Kind of stupid if you ask me. The cop said it took him something like '10 minutes' to realize he was carrying, though, if you listen to the tape, something like exactly 45 seconds goes by before he realizes it.

    10 minutes.

    45 seconds.

    Hmmmm.. it's sad. I hate to say it, but it's really sad.
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    I agree. The cops lack of situational awareness is the issue that should have been adressed. Instead, he tries to pin it on the OCer?

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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    if I am ocing in the bar, and police show up, do I need to disclose immediately i am a cpl holder if I am ocing?
    (edit'd in red for clarity)

    The logical answer is no...because it's safe to assume that they're there for YOU and it's because you're armed. Keep in mind, the legal answer may differ from the logical answer (as it often does).

    I think it depends on the situation. If LEOs show up because some jerk refuses to leave or there's a physical altercation between a couple people, nothing having to dowith you, then I'd say no - no need to disclose. If they're there because of a report of an armed man at a bar, then it might be a good idea, whether the law requires it or not. I personally feel that there's no need to disclose if you're openly carrying. By definition, open carry discloses itself. Open means visible. Visible means it's disclosed upon sight.

    But then, you could be seated and the gun may not be visible from the LEO's view - in which case, I'd always rather verbally disclose beforeI move or they move and it catches them off guard. Cops don't like surprises. Even if openly carrying and they don't notice until you stand, and it catches them off-guard, I think they'll probably try to throw the failure to disclose at you. So, though it may not be legally required, it would probably be a good idea to disclose as a courtesy if nothing else. I think that immediate disclosure puts the carrier in a better light in the LEO's eyes. It indicates that the person 1) isn't going to be a threat, 2) has the presence of mind to not surprise the LEO, and 3) is acting in accordance with the law.Disclosure doesn't verify these things but it's an indicator.

    Sorry, but Idon't knowif you must disclose in this instance according to the letter of the law.
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    Section 234(d)(1) of Michigan Law disallows Pistols into: 1. Banks, 2. Churches, 3. Courts, 4. Theaters, 5. Sports Arenas, 6. Day Care Centers,7. Hospitals, and 8. Bars.

    Section234(d)(2)(c) of the same Law states that:Persons Licensed by Michigan, or another State [that Michigan reconizes], are allowed to Openly Carry Pistols into the areas listed under Section 234(d)(1). Concealed Carry of a Pistol, even with a License, is Unlawful in the same areas, however, under Section 425(o) of Michigan 372. This is Ironic, but Michigan has, through Preemption, discussed below, decided to allow Open Carry much more Liberally than Concealed Carry.

    *** Although somewhat speculative, Concealed Carry, throughout much of The Country, and especially in The South where I am from, is seen as a certain type of 'evil' or an 'evil-practice', in general. However, long before the invention of Concealed Carry Licenses, Open Carry was the common everyday means for Americans to Carry their Arms whilst in Public, and it was generally accepted practice to do so.***

    Open Carry, with or without a License, is Legal in Michigan, and is not Brandishing, per Michigan Attorney General Jennifer M. Grannholm, under Opinion 7101, issued on February. 6, 2002.

    234(e) of Michigan Law disallows a Person to Brandish a Firearm in Public. Brandishing has been held to mean to waive about, or otherwise unnessecarily point, a Firearm, negligently or recklessly at any other Person.

    Under the Opinion cited above, 7101 supra., according to The Michigan AttorneyGeneral, Open Carry whilst the Pistol is in a Holster, is not Brandish under Michigan Law 234(e).

    Michigan Law 123.1102provides that: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    Therefore, Michigan Laws 123.1102 and MCL 234(d) work together in tandem to bar any such action by any Local Government, i.e. a City/County, from regulating more stringently the incident to Keep and Bear Arms in Michigan.

    Any Person who is at least 18 years old, a Citizen of The United States of America and a Resident or Vistor of Michigan, and not a Convicted Felon, may Openly Carry a Legally Resgistered Pistol in Public, the same being in a Holster, while conducting His Business in Michigan.

    Convicted Felons have a means, and limitations, on when they become eligible to retain a Firearm in Michigan. This Law is spelled out under 224(f) of Michigan Code. Surprisingly, in Michigan, a Felony is considered such when it is punishable by Imprisonment for 4 years or more. This is odd, but is a State Right, becuase; throughout most ofThe Country a Felony starts at more than 1 year in Prison. Under Federal Law, however, Felony, for the purposes of Firearms, is any State Crime punishable for Imprisonment by more than 2 years, per 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(20)(B), provided; that the Crime is listed asa Misdemeanor under that States Laws. ***I know of only one State thus far that does this and it is Maryland.***

    Ironically, Michigan does have a Registration (of sorts), by requireing a Pistol to be Inspected under applicableState Law. Michigan Law Section 232 and 228 requires these actions, and failure to do so is a Misdemeanor punishable by 90 days in Jail and a $100 fine.

    Do not carry a Pistol with Intentto use it Unlawfully with Malice, Carry the same Conceaeld (without a License), or Discharge the same outside of Self-Defense or otherLawfull purposes. These Lawsarecodified under Sections226, 227, and 234-234(c).

    Vehicle Carry, atleast to me, is complicated..., consult with Michigan Carry or an Trusted Attorney. The Michigan State Police can not advise one on these matters.

    *** All Sections quoted herein, except 425(o) of Michigan Act 372 and The Preemption Statute 1102, are codified under Michigan Penal Code Act 328 of 1931, as they are found within Chapter XXXVII.***

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    "Ironically, Michigan does have a Registration (of sorts), by requireing a Pistol to be Inspected under applicableState Law. Michigan Law Section 232 and 228 requires these actions, and failure to do so is a Misdemeanor punishable by 90 days in Jail and a $100 fine."

    Section 228 (750.228, Safety Inspection) was repealed, effective January 7, 2009.


  22. #22
    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    aadvark wrote:
    Ironically, Michigan does have a Registration (of sorts), by requireing a Pistol to be Inspected under applicableState Law. Michigan Law Section 232 and 228 requires these actions, and failure to do so is a Misdemeanor punishable by 90 days in Jail and a $100 fine.
    Great post - and I only have one conflict with it. The above quote of pistol "registration" is no longer valid. Michigan did away with "safety inspections/registrations", I think wasin '09.
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

  23. #23
    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    Ah, SpringerXD, ya barely beat me to it!
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    aadvark wrote:

    Ironically, Michigan does have a Registration (of sorts), by requireing a Pistol to be Inspected under applicableState Law. Michigan Law Section 232 and 228 requires these actions, and failure to do so is a Misdemeanor punishable by 90 days in Jail and a $100 fine.



    Vehicle Carry, atleast to me, is complicated..., consult with Michigan Carry or an Trusted Attorney. The Michigan State Police can not advise one on these matters.
    2points here should be adressed. All else is correct.

    The safety inspection was tossed out last year, it is no longer a requirement. *cite needed*

    Vehicle carry is really quite simple. If you have a CPL you are covered , and if you dont have a CPL dont do it its a felony as seen in 750.231a.

    This includes any vehicle, wether the pistol is concealed or visible, it is considered to be concealed by law. If you are in or on any vehicle. Including a bycicle, and quite possibly roller skates.

    You can be charged with a DUI on a bycycle, therefore you can be charged with a CCW, if you dont have a CPL.



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    stainless1911 wrote:
    aadvark wrote:
    snip
    "You can be charged with a DUI on a bycycle, therefore you can be charged with a CCW, if you dont have a CPL"
    *

    The above quote is an assumption not based on facts. We all know this is a grey area and in my opinion the law specifically states "put firearm in to" which cannot be done on a bicycle. Unless you can cite the law proving me wrong do not assume that what is state above is a fact.

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