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Thread: Mackinac Island trip

  1. #1
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    Anything I need to be aware of while carrying on a Indiana LTCH while going to and once on the island?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Well... the boat might qualify as a 'vehicle'... so it might be advisable to have a CPL. Once on the island you should be OK.

    ...unless a horse counts as a vehicle.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    He has an Indiana Licence to carry Handgun that is what LTCH means.

    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    OH...

    ok

    <<idiot here

    But the stuff I said applies more heavily to you then.

    EXCERPT - Michigan Open Carry Guide Book 2010 - Evil Creamsicle Productions

    NON-RESIDENT LICENSES TO CARRY CONCEALED HELD BY MICHIGAN RESIDENTS

    A commonly held misconception is that Michigan law renders useless Michigan residents having out of state licenses to carry concealed. However, this is only true of carrying concealed and in/on vehicles. Open carrying on foot under these licenses works just like a resident CPL.

    MCL 750.234d and MCL 750.237a both list the places that are restricted to carry. They exempt people who are licensed by this state or another state to carry concealed pistols.

    A small number of states will issue non-resident 18+ year olds who are legally eligible licenses to carry concealed pistols. Having one of these licenses to carry will enable Michigan residents to OC in the places listed in 234d and 237a.

    These licenses do nothing to enable car carry or any form of CC because MCL 750.227 (Exhibit 21 A) prohibits vehicle carry without a resident license to carry a concealed pistol.

    Non-residents of Michigan cannot use a license to carry from a state other than their home state, because of Section 28.422 (Exhibit 5 A), which specifies that non-residents who carry pistols must have resident licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license by the wording of this law; it just has to be a resident license to do one of those things under some limited circumstances. So for example, a Wisconsin resident can’t carry pistols in Michigan, but an Illinois resident who has a pistol and a FOID card could come to Michigan and experience a whole lot of new found freedom to carry, having the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL.

    Since holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in cars under them in Michigan, there is never a requirement to disclose the licensed status to police, or even to possess the license while OCing, or any other ID for that matter, because disclosure is only related to concealment and vehicles. If you’re carrying in a game area under the license, per MCL 324.43510, (Exhibit 23 A) you would legally have to have the license with you, but there is no law known to the authors that says you’d have to show it.


    ETA: Portion relevant to you highlighted in red

    So... what I would do, personally, is break the gun down and store it unloaded in a case on the boat... since the statute that provides that you cannot carry loaded in a vehicle without a CPL never actually defines the word vehicle, and it is a grey area.

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    OH...

    ok

    <<idiot here

    But the stuff I said applies more heavily to you then.

    EXCERPT - Michigan Open Carry Guide Book 2010 - Evil Creamsicle Productions

    NON-RESIDENT LICENSES TO CARRY CONCEALED HELD BY MICHIGAN RESIDENTS
    That doesn't apply to me. I'm an Indiana Resident carrying on an Indiana LTCH.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    I am aware. That is why I highlighted the second part in red :-D

    Non-residents of Michigan cannot use a license to carry from a state other than their home state, because of Section 28.422 (Exhibit 5 A), which specifies that non-residents who carry pistols must have resident licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license by the wording of this law; it just has to be a resident license to do one of those things under some limited circumstances. So for example, a Wisconsin resident can’t carry pistols in Michigan, but an Illinois resident who has a pistol and a FOID card could come to Michigan and experience a whole lot of new found freedom to carry, having the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL.

    Since holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in cars under them in Michigan, there is never a requirement to disclose the licensed status to police, or even to possess the license while OCing, or any other ID for that matter, because disclosure is only related to concealment and vehicles. If you’re carrying in a game area under the license, per MCL 324.43510, (Exhibit 23 A) you would legally have to have the license with you, but there is no law known to the authors that says you’d have to show it.


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    Ummmm... Like I said, I am an Indiana resident carrying on a Indiana LTCH. That does not apply to me either.

    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    I am aware. That is why I highlighted the second part in red :-D

    Non-residents of Michigan cannot use a license to carry from a state other than their home state, because of Section 28.422 (Exhibit 5 A), which specifies that non-residents who carry pistols must have resident licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license by the wording of this law; it just has to be a resident license to do one of those things under some limited circumstances. So for example, a Wisconsin resident can’t carry pistols in Michigan, but an Illinois resident who has a pistol and a FOID card could come to Michigan and experience a whole lot of new found freedom to carry, having the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL.

    Since holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in cars under them in Michigan, there is never a requirement to disclose the licensed status to police, or even to possess the license while OCing, or any other ID for that matter, because disclosure is only related to concealment and vehicles. If you’re carrying in a game area under the license, per MCL 324.43510, (Exhibit 23 A) you would legally have to have the license with you, but there is no law known to the authors that says you’d have to show it.

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    Prometheus wrote:
    Anything I need to be aware of while carrying on a Indiana LTCH while going to and once on the island?
    The boatsare fine.

    Just know Michigan's PFZ's:

    Schools.
    Public or private child care center or day care centers.
    Sports arena or stadium.
    Bar or tavern. Where liquor is by the glass and consumed on the premises.
    Church.
    Entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.
    Hospital.
    Dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Prometheus wrote:
    Ummmm... Like I said, I am an Indiana resident carrying on a Indiana LTCH. That does not apply to me either.
    It does too, if you read more than the first sentence... I'll paraphrase using copy and paste for those of us who are impatient.

    It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license; it just has to be a resident license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. you have the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL. holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in vehicles under them in Michigan


    All of this was there. Seems pretty relevant to me. I was merely trying to provide slightly more information than I'd think you need... I'll learn from the mistake next time.

    Sorry for attempting to be helpful

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Prometheus wrote:
    Ummmm... Like I said, I am an Indiana resident carrying on a Indiana LTCH. That does not apply to me either.
    It does too, if you read more than the first sentence... I'll paraphrase using copy and paste for those of us who are impatient.

    It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license; it just has to be a resident license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. you have the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL. holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in vehicles under them in Michigan


    All of this was there. Seems pretty relevant to me. I was merely trying to provide slightly more information than I'd think you need... I'll learn from the mistake next time.

    Sorry for attempting to be helpful
    Well you did help me the first time you posted. I'm going to the UP and what you are saying is I have to transport my firearm incased and unloaded in Mi? Bummer. But I will ba able to OC. :celebrateYes I have a CHL from Arkansas.

    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Packer fan wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Prometheus wrote:
    Ummmm... Like I said, I am an Indiana resident carrying on a Indiana LTCH. That does not apply to me either.
    It does too, if you read more than the first sentence... I'll paraphrase using copy and paste for those of us who are impatient.

    It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license; it just has to be a resident license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. you have the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL. holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in vehicles under them in Michigan


    All of this was there. Seems pretty relevant to me. I was merely trying to provide slightly more information than I'd think you need... I'll learn from the mistake next time.

    Sorry for attempting to be helpful
    Well you did help me the first time you posted. I'm going to the UP and what you are saying is I have to transport my firearm incased and unloaded in Mi? Bummer. But I will ba able to OC. :celebrateYes I have a CHL from Arkansas.
    OK evil you are confusing me... Are you saying that a person that has a resident CPL from a state that we reciprocate with CANNOT carry concealed in MI?


    NOTE this is NOT TRUE! If you have a reciprocated license to carry concealed from your state of residence you can carry loaded concealed in your car or any other place it is legal to do so in MI.

    As far as transport you may carry your pistol or pistols loaded and concealed in your car. Long guns must be unloaded in both the chamber and the magazine and encased or taken down. This does not apply to loaded detachable mags as long as they are detached from the long gun.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  12. #12
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Packer fan wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Prometheus wrote:
    Ummmm... Like I said, I am an Indiana resident carrying on a Indiana LTCH. That does not apply to me either.
    It does too, if you read more than the first sentence... I'll paraphrase using copy and paste for those of us who are impatient.

    It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license; it just has to be a resident license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. you have the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL. holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in vehicles under them in Michigan


    All of this was there. Seems pretty relevant to me. I was merely trying to provide slightly more information than I'd think you need... I'll learn from the mistake next time.

    Sorry for attempting to be helpful
    Well you did help me the first time you posted. I'm going to the UP and what you are saying is I have to transport my firearm incased and unloaded in Mi? Bummer. But I will ba able to OC. :celebrateYes I have a CHL from Arkansas.
    OK evil you are confusing me... Are you saying that a person that has a resident CPL from a state that we reciprocate with CANNOT carry concealed in MI?


    NOTE this is NOT TRUE! If you have a reciprocated license to carry concealed from your state of residence you can carry loaded concealed in your car or any other place it is legal to do so in MI.

    As far as transport you may carry your pistol or pistols loaded and concealed in your car. Long guns must be unloaded in both the chamber and the magazine and encased or taken down. This does not apply to loaded detachable mags as long as they are detached from the long gun.
    I was referring to more general terms.

    Meaning, a 'licence to carry' is not necessarily a 'license to carry concealed', and some states do issue both. In response to the original post, i was referring to a 'license to carry'.

    EDITED TO ADD: Thank you for pointing these things out, as it lets me know sections I need to clarify... this publication is still being edited and it is about 90 pages...

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    Packer fan wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Prometheus wrote:
    Ummmm... Like I said, I am an Indiana resident carrying on a Indiana LTCH. That does not apply to me either.
    It does too, if you read more than the first sentence... I'll paraphrase using copy and paste for those of us who are impatient.

    It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license; it just has to be a resident license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. you have the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL. holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in vehicles under them in Michigan


    All of this was there. Seems pretty relevant to me. I was merely trying to provide slightly more information than I'd think you need... I'll learn from the mistake next time.

    Sorry for attempting to be helpful
    Well you did help me the first time you posted. I'm going to the UP and what you are saying is I have to transport my firearm incased and unloaded in Mi? Bummer. But I will ba able to OC. :celebrateYes I have a CHL from Arkansas.
    OK evil you are confusing me... Are you saying that a person that has a resident CPL from a state that we reciprocate with CANNOT carry concealed in MI?


    NOTE this is NOT TRUE! If you have a reciprocated license to carry concealed from your state of residence you can carry loaded concealed in your car or any other place it is legal to do so in MI.

    As far as transport you may carry your pistol or pistols loaded and concealed in your car. Long guns must be unloaded in both the chamber and the magazine and encased or taken down. This does not apply to loaded detachable mags as long as they are detached from the long gun.
    I was referring to more general terms.

    Meaning, a 'licence to carry' is not necessarily a 'license to carry concealed', and some states do issue both. In response to the original post, i was referring to a 'license to carry'.

    EDITED TO ADD: Thank you for pointing these things out, as it lets me know sections I need to clarify... this publication is still being edited and it is about 90 pages...
    I believe what EC is referring to is, for example:

    MCL 28.422

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.



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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Prometheus wrote:
    Ummmm... Like I said, I am an Indiana resident carrying on a Indiana LTCH. That does not apply to me either.
    It does too, if you read more than the first sentence... I'll paraphrase using copy and paste for those of us who are impatient.

    It doesn’t have to be a resident concealed carry license; it just has to be a resident license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. you have the same rights as a Michigan resident with a registered handgun and no CPL. holders of these licenses can’t conceal, or carry in vehicles under them in Michigan


    All of this was there. Seems pretty relevant to me. I was merely trying to provide slightly more information than I'd think you need... I'll learn from the mistake next time.

    Sorry for attempting to be helpful
    I appreciate you trying to be helpful, thank you. On the flip side, the section you pointed out didn't apply to me. I figured maybe you didn't see my location so I included it in my first response.

    We must be reading two different things, because (as autosurgeon concurs) that (sub)section doesn't apply to someone (like myself) carrying with their resident permit/license to carry. I understand where you are trying to go and how you got there, but each sub section is dependent on the section... anyway, thanks for trying. :?

    To be crystal clear for anyone who got lost along the way:
    An Indiana Resident can carry a handgun (openly or concealed) in Michigan with their Indiana License to Carry a Handgun (LTCH).

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    I'm no expert on Michigan law, but I think EC is missing a key qualifier in the section he quoted:

    "Non-residents of Michigan cannot use a license to carry from a state other than their home state,"

    By my reading, that means the OP, as a resident of Indiana, couldn't carry on a Texas license, nor Ohio, nor Utah, nor Pennsylvania. But he could carry with a license from his home state, which he has.


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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    I'm no expert on Michigan law, but I think EC is missing a key qualifier in the section he quoted:

    "Non-residents of Michigan cannot use a license to carry from a state other than their home state,"

    By my reading, that means the OP, as a resident of Indiana, couldn't carry on a Texas license, nor Ohio, nor Utah, nor Pennsylvania. But he could carry with a license from his home state, which he has.

    you got it right!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    I'm no expert on Michigan law, but I think EC is missing a key qualifier in the section he quoted:

    "Non-residents of Michigan cannot use a license to carry from a state other than their home state,"

    By my reading, that means the OP, as a resident of Indiana, couldn't carry on a Texas license, nor Ohio, nor Utah, nor Pennsylvania. But he could carry with a license from his home state, which he has.

    you got it right!
    OK, according to what you are saying, in order to carry either openly or concealed, a non-resident has to have a license from their home state and carry as the out-of-state license allows. But, as I am not a lawyer and don't wish to give legal "advice",what about MCL 28.432 "Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act” which states that: Sec. 12. (1) Section 2 (The Requirement to Register a Pistol) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.
    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.
    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.
    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, “antique
    firearm” means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual’s possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

    I don't see anything about residency here. So it appears that a Wisconsin resident, although unable to carry concealed because Wisconsin does not issue a concealed permit, could arguably OC a pistol if the resident of Wisconsin had a concealed carry permit/license from, say, Pennsylvania. What do you think.

    edit I am aware of the previously mentioned exemption, but I would argue that we have another exemption available to nonresidents...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    I'm no expert on Michigan law, but I think EC is missing a key qualifier in the section he quoted:

    "Non-residents of Michigan cannot use a license to carry from a state other than their home state,"

    By my reading, that means the OP, as a resident of Indiana, couldn't carry on a Texas license, nor Ohio, nor Utah, nor Pennsylvania. But he could carry with a license from his home state, which he has.

    you got it right!
    OK, according to what you are saying, in order to carry either openly or concealed, a non-resident has to have a license from their home state and carry as the out-of-state license allows. But, as I am not a lawyer and don't wish to give legal "advice",what about MCL 28.432 "Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act” which states that: Sec. 12. (1) Section 2 (The Requirement to Register a Pistol) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.
    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.
    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.
    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, “antique
    firearm” means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual’s possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

    I don't see anything about residency here. So it appears that a Wisconsin resident, although unable to carry concealed because Wisconsin does not issue a concealed permit, could arguably OC a pistol if the resident of Wisconsin had a concealed carry permit/license from, say, Pennsylvania. What do you think.

    edit I am aware of the previously mentioned exemption, but I would argue that we have another exemption available to nonresidents...
    Oops was he referring to OC? I thought he was discussing CC at this point...

    Anyway you are correct about OC on an license from other than your home state being legal.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I am aware that the original post had been adequately answered as he was discussing an IN LTCH... just an issue with Evil Creamsicle implying, perhaps unintentionally) that a Wisconsin resident couldn't carry in Michigan (carry not being defined in the response so I took it to mean both OC and CC). Suppose I could have started a thread but just didn't want to mislead our brothers and sisters in Wisconsin into believing that the example given left them out without a possibility to carry a pistol here too. One OCDO member there (Wisc) is still convinced that he can't bring a pistol into Michigan, due to the residency requirement of the citation listed prior to mine. One more reason that pistol registration should be scrapped.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I would love to remove the abomination known as pistol registration!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    AAR:

    I didn't really OC on my trip. Who knows how MI really is about OC, I see a lot of negative posts about IN, but know that problems with OC in IN are few and far between. I didn't really want to push it while on vacation and ruin things.

    I also didn't conceal very well either. Spent a lot of time biking around the island with a full size XD 9 on my hip OWB in a Blade Tech holster, lots of time getting the girls in and out of the bike trailer ect... anyone paying attn would have known I was armed. No one either noticed or cared.

    One day my wife biked and walked quite a bit with an XD on her hip and tight tshirt. If the print of the gun didn't smack you in the face, seeing the bottom 1-2 inches sticking out would have. Again, no one said a word. I'm positive some of the island cops had to notice at one point.

    Anyway, it was a great trip and while on the island (and ferry) I didn't see a single 'no guns' sign either.

  22. #22
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    thats cool, glad you had fun
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

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