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Thread: using a real unloaded gun for training

  1. #1
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    I have a friend who teaches Krav Maga. He uses an unloaded Glock to teach disarming. I was always taught NEVER point a gun at someone, so we got in a heated "debate" about this. How do you feel?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Wouldn't want it pointed at me. They make brightly colored training barrels for Glocks, which I guess I'd be fine with.
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    I know many self defense instructors that do it. I don't really care. As long as they're being responsible with it. I'd rather use a non working gun or "prop" gun, but that's just me. I don't hold judgment to those who use real, unloaded guns.

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    those krav maga people are seriously hardcore. no BS'ing around. i'm almost surprised that you said it was unloaded. LOL some of the practice i've seen from krav maga sessions end up quite painful and bloody. kinda like a "practice real or don't practice at all" mentality.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Condemn. First rule of firearms. Treat EVERY gun as if it's loaded. Not 'reasonably safe' - EVERY.

    Anybody thinks they know better than the colonel about pistoleering is someone you need to be wary of.

    Use a mock pistol or the aforementioned training barrel. Super cheap is a water pistol filled with sand.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    simmonsjoe wrote:
    Condemn. First rule of firearms. Treat EVERY gun as if it's loaded. Not 'reasonably safe' - EVERY.

    Anybody thinks they know better than the colonel about pistoleering is someone you need to be wary of.

    Use a mock pistol or the aforementioned training barrel. Super cheap is a water pistol filled with sand.
    That's very true. Like I said, I won't hold judgment against a professional who decides to use a real unloaded weapon, but there is always that chance, no matter how minute it may be, that you forget to unload it, or check the chamber, or something. The chance is always there.

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    "But...but...but...It was unloaded. I was sure it was unloaded."

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    If there is the need to use something realistic, there are plenty of great airsoft choices available. Using a real gun is just asking for trouble. Even when you are "positive" all the live ammo is locked up in another room.

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    I agree using a bright orange training pistol would be a better option, but if this gun is kept at the training facility and always left unloaded (with no ammo on premises), then it seems fine to me. of course every time the weapon is used it should be cleared to be extra sure.

    Maybe the trainer purely bought the gun to train with and doesn't actually use it to shoot in his personal collection. Or what if he keeps a loaded mag nearby in case he needs to stop a BG, a plastic toy ain't gonna cut it in that case.

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    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    t33j wrote:
    Wouldn't want it pointed at me. They make brightly colored training barrels for Glocks, which I guess I'd be fine with.
    ^^ This

    If he really wants to use real glocks, use these training barrels:


    There is NO mistaking that these guns aren't loaded with these barrels in.







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    Ian wrote:
    t33j wrote:
    Wouldn't want it pointed at me. They make brightly colored training barrels for Glocks, which I guess I'd be fine with.
    ^^ This

    If he really wants to use real glocks, use these training barrels:


    There is NO mistaking that these guns aren't loaded with these barrels in.





    That's pretty cool. Better to be safe than sorry!

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    big_bake wrote:
    I agree using a bright orange training pistol would be a better option, but if this gun is kept at the training facility and always left unloaded (with no ammo on premises), then it seems fine to me. of course every time the weapon is used it should be cleared to be extra sure.

    Maybe the trainer purely bought the gun to train with and doesn't actually use it to shoot in his personal collection. Or what if he keeps a loaded mag nearby in case he needs to stop a BG, a plastic toy ain't gonna cut it in that case.
    Guns are always loaded.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    big_bake wrote:
    I agree using a bright orange training pistol would be a better option, but if this gun is kept at the training facility and always left unloaded (with no ammo on premises), then it seems fine to me. of course every time the weapon is used it should be cleared to be extra sure.

    Maybe the trainer purely bought the gun to train with and doesn't actually use it to shoot in his personal collection. Or what if he keeps a loaded mag nearby in case he needs to stop a BG, a plastic toy ain't gonna cut it in that case.
    Guns are always loaded.
    That may be one of the rules of firearm handling, but it is not a rule of reality. Just my opinion.

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    Tess wrote:
    Guns are always loaded.
    Please share how you clean your "always loaded" guns.

    Or... maybe add a qualifier to that statement?

    That statement left alone -a newbie to guns would see the obvious "not really always" truth and dismiss it - at their peril.



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    SFCRetired wrote:
    I don't care what is being taught or by whom; point a firearm at me and I will either leave rather abruptly or I will consider the person doing the pointing to be a threat and react accordingly.

    There was a young captain many years ago who tried to bring me up on charges when I broke his finger for pointing a loaded .45 at me. The Battalion CO told him that, if he did, I had a very good case against him for attempted murder. The captain was later that year asked to resign for the "good of the service". The boy wasn't wrapped to overly tight.

    And now, I am entirely too old to let some yahoo endanger my life with a weapon he "guarantees is unloaded." Not just "NO", but "H3LL, NO!!"
    Well considering that these self defense schools require you to sign a waiver, are insured, and require you to consent to their methods of training, you'd probably be in for a major lawsuit if you reacted with violence. Also, most of these instructors are far from a typical yahoo. They're very skilled in the art of self defense, weapons defense and tactics, and weapons training. Most of the ones I've met are former special forces operatives. There's one who is former Israeli Defense Force Operative, so it's not like these guys are Joe Blows twirling guns around thinking they're Clint Eastwood.

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    But using a unloaded glock wouldn't be true training. The gun would be so front heavy, it would be asanine. Also the overall weight would be off in a real life situation. The guy is a tool, buy a blue gun.

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    Ian wrote:
    If he really wants to use real glocks, use these training barrels:
    There is NO mistaking that these guns aren't loaded with these barrels in.
    This are really nice.

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    CommonMan101 wrote:
    Tess wrote:
    Guns are always loaded.
    Please share how you clean your "always loaded" guns.

    Or... maybe add a qualifier to that statement?

    That statement left alone -a newbie to guns would see the obvious "not really always" truth and dismiss it - at their peril.

    You field strip a weapon before cleaning it silly.
    See my first post on this thread for your qualifier.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    SFCRetired wrote:
    I don't care what is being taught or by whom; point a firearm at me and I will either leave rather abruptly or I will consider the person doing the pointing to be a threat and react accordingly.

    There was a young captain many years ago who tried to bring me up on charges when I broke his finger for pointing a loaded .45 at me.
    Which finger and how did you break it?

    Why did he point the loaded gun at you?

  21. #21
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    SFCRetired wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    SFCRetired wrote:
    I don't care what is being taught or by whom; point a firearm at me and I will either leave rather abruptly or I will consider the person doing the pointing to be a threat and react accordingly.

    There was a young captain many years ago who tried to bring me up on charges when I broke his finger for pointing a loaded .45 at me.
    Which finger and how did you break it?

    Why did he point the loaded gun at you?
    Trigger finger of his right hand. Yes, the idiot had his finger on the trigger. As to how I broke it, that is for me to know, but any good self-defense instructor could show you how. As to why; I haven't figured that out in the almost forty years since it happened. He never did give a good reason for it.
    Oh man, we have a real Rex Kwon Do on our hands






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    Tess wrote:
    Guns are always loaded.
    I understand this to be a safe firearm handling rule, but I'm sorry, if there is no round in the gun it's not loaded. Then gun can be cleared and passed around for all to check themselves that way everyone knows. then training can begin. The gun won't magically load itself during training.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    big_bake wrote:
    Tess wrote:
    Guns are always loaded.
    I understand this to be a safe firearm handling rule, but I'm sorry, if there is no round in the gun it's not loaded. Then gun can be cleared and passed around for all to check themselves that way everyone knows. then training can begin. The gun won't magically load itself during training.
    Checking it doesn't alter the rules.

    Treat every gun as if it is loaded.

    Therefore, every gun is loaded.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    Checking it doesn't alter the rules.

    Treat every gun as if it is loaded.

    Therefore, every gun is loaded.
    Clearly that statement shows that the gun must be in an unloaded state to be treated as if it is loaded. Yes we treat them that way to be cautious and reduce accidents, but guns can still be in an unloaded condition.


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