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Thread: Open carry in restaurants illegal?

  1. #1
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    If I'm reading the statutes correctly (IANAL), then OCDO needs to update their state info for Alaska.

    Sec. 11.61.220. Misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree.
    (a) A person commits the crime of misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree if the person
    ...
    (2) knowingly possesses a loaded firearm on the person in any place where intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption on the premises;
    Now, (d)(1) of this section does provide an "affirmative defense" for restaurant carry, but specifically for concealed carry. I can find no provision that allows open carry in a restaurant where alcohol is served, however the state info for Alaska here on this site implies that open carry is permitted so long as the carrier does not drink.

    If I'm reading this correctly, then OCDO's state info is very wrong, and someone following it could find themselves guilty of a class B misdemeanor. Anyone have anything they can add to this? Maybe point me to something I've missed that corrects my misconception?

    If I don't have this wrong, let's get a letter campaign going to our state legislators (yeah, I know, session's ended, but it's not too early to begin lobbying for changes we want to see under the next session!) to get open carry in restaurants permitted -- all it would take would be a repeal of (d)(1)(B) of this section, or else simply striking the word "concealed" (and the reference to the definition of a concealed handgun) from it to keep only handguns permitted.

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    Can you give us a LINK to the whole section of law so WE CAN READ this section in its entirety?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
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  3. #3
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    Sorry about that, here it is:
    http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/...Section220.htm

    This section is fully in agreement with what's on the state legislature's website, this site is just easier to link to and formatted better.

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    Kromey wrote:
    If I'm reading the statutes correctly (IANAL), then OCDO needs to update their state info for Alaska.

    Sec. 11.61.220. Misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree.
    (a) A person commits the crime of misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree if the person
    ...
    (2) knowingly possesses a loaded firearm on the person in any place where intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption on the premises;
    Now, (d)(1) of this section does provide an "affirmative defense" for restaurant carry, but specifically for concealed carry. I can find no provision that allows open carry in a restaurant where alcohol is served, however the state info for Alaska here on this site implies that open carry is permitted so long as the carrier does not drink.

    If I'm reading this correctly, then OCDO's state info is very wrong, and someone following it could find themselves guilty of a class B misdemeanor. Anyone have anything they can add to this? Maybe point me to something I've missed that corrects my misconception?

    If I don't have this wrong, let's get a letter campaign going to our state legislators (yeah, I know, session's ended, but it's not too early to begin lobbying for changes we want to see under the next session!) to get open carry in restaurants permitted -- all it would take would be a repeal of (d)(1)(B) of this section, or else simply striking the word "concealed" (and the reference to the definition of a concealed handgun) from it to keep only handguns permitted.
    (d) In a prosecution under (a)(2) of this section, it is




    (1) an affirmative defense that




    (A) [Repealed, Sec. 7 ch 62 SLA 2003].




    (B) the loaded firearm was a concealed handgun as defined in AS 18.65.790; and




    (C) the possession occurred at a place designated as a restaurant for the purposes of AS 04.16.049 and the defendant did not consume intoxicating liquor at the place;




    (2) a defense that the defendant, at the time of possession, was on business premises




    (A) owned by or leased by the defendant; or




    (B) in the course of the defendant's employment for the owner or lessee of those premises
    If I am assuming your thoughts on this, since you didn't specify....



    It is against the law to knowingly have a possess a firearm in an establishment the sells alcohol for consumption on the premesises.

    It is a defense for the charge that the firearm was concealed OR that possession occured in a portion of the premesis that was a restaurant and the firearm possessor did not consume alcohol.

    So, it would seem to me that OC'ing is a misdemeanor when a person OC's in a restaurant weather he drinks or not. But an individual can conceal in the exact same establishment as long as he does not drink.



    Did I get that right?

    Seems just a little conveluted to me!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    JoeSparky wrote:
    It is a defense for the charge that the firearm was concealed OR that possession occured in a portion of the premesis that was a restaurant and the firearm possessor did not consume alcohol.
    That conjunction should be AND, not or, which is what raised this whole thing for me -- if you look at the law again, (d)(1)(B) ends in "and", meaning that both it and (d)(1)(C) must be true (the handgun must be concealed and the person must not be drinking). Although your next paragraph indicates that you may have simply mistyped the conjunction here...

    JoeSparky wrote:
    So, it would seem to me that OC'ing is a misdemeanor when a person OC's in a restaurant weather he drinks or not. But an individual can conceal in the exact same establishment as long as he does not drink.
    That's how I read it as well, and that's why I'm raising this point -- the OCDO information on Alaska's laws implies that one may OC in a restaurant if one does not drink, but the only such provision I can find applies solely to CC. I'm not willing to say, without more information, that my knowledge of the law is better than that of whoever wrote the OCDO page, though, which is why I'm asking.

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    good catch... I missed the "and" in my read!:what:



    Send a PM to Mike or John and the change may be forthcoming or

    do nothing and HOPE that Mike or John even see the discussion and make any needed changes.... LOL

    That was a JOKE! Please take it as such!!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Remember, in Alaska one does not need a License to Conceal any Firearm or Weapon, therefore; merely Conceal the same just before you enter The Establishment and do not Drink Alcohol while there, whilst Armed.



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    I'd like to add the statute says a LOADED firearm. I've searched case law in Alaska regarding the status of loaded and unloaded, and the only cases I could come up with if the person infers an unloaded firearm is loaded to another individual in which case the firearm is treated as loaded.

    I've yet to hear about any cases in which someone was charged with a misdemeanor for open carry of an unloaded firearm in an establishment which serves alcohol for consumption on the premises.
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    You're right, aardvark, I could simply conceal when going to a restaurant; I'm usually the DD anyway so I'm rarely drinking as it is. I'm just not sure how easily I'd be able to conceal a full-size Springfield XDM40 or Glock 22 (the two guns I'm trying to choose between for my first firearm), especially since money's tight enough that I'll likely only be able to buy one holster for now, and I'm very definitely favoring the OWB styles (in theory -- I've yet to actually try out any).

    That is a good point, insane.kangaroo, I could simply unload and enter. "Loaded" is defined in AK statutes (sorry, don't have the reference handy, but I think it's in the same section already being discussed here) as having a loaded magazine inserted and/or a round in the chamber. So I could simply eject the magazine and chambered round before I enter. I think I like that less than switching to CC, if only because it requires unholstering the weapon to rack the slide and eject that round, but at least that's another option.

    And, of course, I could simply disarm and lock my weapon in my car before entering.

    Either way, I'm going to write to my state legislators about this one. It seems silly to permit CC while restricting OC under otherwise identical circumstances. I would urge others to do the same as well.

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    Now about concealment in Alaska....

    I know no permit needed as long as you are 21 years or more.



    http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/...Section220.htm


    (e) For purposes of this section, a deadly weapon on a person is concealed if it is covered or enclosed in any manner so that an observer cannot determine that it is a weapon without removing it from that which covers or encloses it or without opening, lifting, or removing that which covers or encloses it; a deadly weapon on a person is not concealed if it is an unloaded firearm encased in a closed container designed for transporting firearms.



    Seems like according to the statute posted"Printing" is a NO NO... Does make it more challenging!



    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    Seems like according to the statute posted"Printing" is a NO NO... Does make it more challenging!
    My reading is that "printing" is only a "no-no" when it's obvious what is printing. Most examples I've seen it is clear that there is something underneath the shirt, but rarely clear what it is. Since the statute does say that the observer has to know it is a weapon, I think these less extreme examples of printing would be acceptable -- i.e. the weapon is still considered concealed. But, IANAL.

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    I agree with Kromey!

    The Alaska State Legislature, oddly, authorized Concealed Carry of a Firearm in a place that sells Alcohol for Consumption on-premises, yet, in turn, Criminalizes Open Carry whilst there. (...provided, one does not drink Alcohol, of course, as a matter of Law.)

    The State Legislature should overturn the whole Law, and repeal the sectionof this Statute, 5th Degree Weapons Misconduct, ...I believe,regarding this matter.

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    Thanks for the discussion folks, John has updated the map to show concealed carry equired at alcohol serving restaurants in Alaska: http://www.opencarry.org/restaurant.html

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    Awesome, thanks Mike! With any luck we'll be asking you to change it back by this time next year.

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    BTW I brought this up in one of my first post you all thought i was NVTS!



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    Wirelesscto wrote:
    BTW I brought this up in one of my first post you all thought i was NVTS!

    I have found more than once that what I thought I said or typed was not what was understood by those hearing or reading my comments. LOL
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    Wirelesscto wrote:
    BTW I brought this up in one of my first post you all thought i was NVTS!

    I have found more than once that what I thought I said or typed was not what was understood by those hearing or reading my comments. LOL
    Hoo boy! I've been there soooooo many times.

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    You need no permit in Alaska to OC or CC, there are not alot in Alaska that I have seen that CC though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archsgurl View Post
    You need no permit in Alaska to OC or CC, there are not alot in Alaska that I have seen that CC though.
    cc means concealed so you won't see it.
    I think you would be surprised at how many people cc.
    I've had people that know me say, I see your not carrying today,
    And I had as many as 3 handguns on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    cc means concealed so you won't see it.
    I think you would be surprised at how many people cc.
    I've had people that know me say, I see your not carrying today,
    And I had as many as 3 handguns on.

    Yes I know what CC means, I had to CC in Texas. Also good for you on the CCing, but I am glad that I no longer have to hide my gun to help others feel comfortable.

  21. #21
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    open carry vice concealed

    I think the issue is that if there are other persons in the restaurant or bar. even if ur carrying and not drinking other drunks in the bar could see ur oc weapon and get stupis as opposed to it being concealed. Just a thought
    Quote Originally Posted by Kromey View Post
    You're right, aardvark, I could simply conceal when going to a restaurant; I'm usually the DD anyway so I'm rarely drinking as it is. I'm just not sure how easily I'd be able to conceal a full-size Springfield XDM40 or Glock 22 (the two guns I'm trying to choose between for my first firearm), especially since money's tight enough that I'll likely only be able to buy one holster for now, and I'm very definitely favoring the OWB styles (in theory -- I've yet to actually try out any).

    That is a good point, insane.kangaroo, I could simply unload and enter. "Loaded" is defined in AK statutes (sorry, don't have the reference handy, but I think it's in the same section already being discussed here) as having a loaded magazine inserted and/or a round in the chamber. So I could simply eject the magazine and chambered round before I enter. I think I like that less than switching to CC, if only because it requires unholstering the weapon to rack the slide and eject that round, but at least that's another option.

    And, of course, I could simply disarm and lock my weapon in my car before entering.

    Either way, I'm going to write to my state legislators about this one. It seems silly to permit CC while restricting OC under otherwise identical circumstances. I would urge others to do the same as well.

  22. #22
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    You can carry in a restaurant as long as you dont consume alcohol but you cannot carry in a bar.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by waapl01 View Post
    I think the issue is that if there are other persons in the restaurant or bar. even if ur carrying and not drinking other drunks in the bar could see ur oc weapon and get stupis as opposed to it being concealed. Just a thought
    Who is drunk? The person OCing? Do your state laws permit intoxication in public?

    Insofar as "get stupid" possibilities, cite please. When and where has this occurred?

    In Virginia a very large number of us OC every time we go out to eat. Never have found a single instance of an OCer being physically confronted.
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    Bottom line:

    1) You can carry a loaded, concealed weapon into a restaurant if you have a CCW and you do not drink alcohol.

    2) You can carry an unloaded weapon in a bar. (The term "loaded weapon" is explicitly defined in the statute; I comply by clearing the weapon and putting my pistol magazine in my pocket.)
    Last edited by Nanook; 10-04-2010 at 08:50 PM.

  25. #25
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    Nanook, if you mean CCW to be a permit, you would be incorrect as a permit is not required in Alaska to conceal carry a firearm.
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