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Thread: Mi State Trooper Illegally Detains Man For Open Carry

  1. #1
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    Was detained this afternoon for about 25 minutes by a trooper. I was very disappointed in him, since he is a trooper.

    He stated that he did not detain me for carrying a gun, but he detained me for failure to produce ID. My firearm was removed, i was frisked and put in the back of the car.

    Creating the audio now, should be live within the hour.

    I was carrying at an outdoor estate auction. An off duty deputy saw my pistol and requested the state trooper.

    I did not stick to wash, rinse, repeat. I started the encounter out by smiling and shaking the hand of the trooper asking "how are you doing?" He asked for id, and things kind of went downhill from there.

    In the end, i consider this a win. The point was made that this is not a stop and id state. The best part is that at the end, The officer re-holstered my firearm for me and we shook hands in front of a crowd of about 150 auction goers. Now lots of people are aware that open carry is legal.

    I did finally give up my ID after several minutes. I did not want to spend the weekend in jail, I have to work tomorrow.

    Then, he is like "what's that?" pointing at my voice recorder. He took it off my belt and began pushing buttons in an apparent attempt to delete the encounter. Without thinking, i grabbed a hold of it and we played tug-of-war for a few seconds until he gave me that "stop or i will taze you" look. Then i said "you can't delete that! That would be criminal!!" he relented and gave it back. Fortunately for me my recorder was "locked" so the buttons wouldn't work.

    *edited to provide links*


    Part I
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybBX04kE0Kk

    Part II
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3znSSGgiLaY

    Part III
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0os57vNunM
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  2. #2
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    lapeer20m wrote:
    Was detained this afternoon for about 25 minutes by a trooper. I was very disappointed in him, since he is a trooper.

    He stated that he did not detain me for carrying a gun, but he detained me for failure to produce ID. My firearm was removed, i was frisked and put in the back of the car.

    Creating the audio now, should be live within the hour.

    I was carrying at an outdoor estate auction. An off duty deputy saw my pistol and requested the state trooper.

    I did not stick to wash, rinse, repeat. I started the encounter out by smiling and shaking the hand of the trooper asking "how are you doing?" He asked for id, and things kind of went downhill from there.

    In the end, i consider this a win. The point was made that this is not a stop and id state. The best part is that at the end, The officer re-holstered my firearm for me and we shook hands in front of a crowd of about 150 auction goers. Now lots of people are aware that open carry is legal.

    I did finally give up my ID after several minutes. I did not want to spend the weekend in jail, I have to work tomorrow.

    Then, he is like "what's that?" pointing at my voice recorder. He took it off my belt and began pushing buttons in an apparent attempt to delete the encounter. Without thinking, i grabbed a hold of it and we played tug-of-war for a few seconds until he gave me that "stop or i will taze you" look. Then i said "you can't delete that! That would be criminal!!" he relented and gave it back. Fortunately for me my recorder was "locked" so the buttons wouldn't work.
    Glad to hear things ended okay, I just don't like how it began, especially him being a State Trooper. What if you were being illegally detained by local PD, and called the State Police for help and this guy showed up. You know.

    Well can't wait for the audio.

    God Bless, carry on
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    God Bless

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Just BC they know it is legal does not mean they all are professional enough to follow the law and not let their personal biases show!

    Sounds like you did a great job in the situation you were presented with.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  4. #4
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    What course of action you need to take is largely dependent on how much permission he had.

    If he had no consent for anything and I was in that situation, I'd have made a complaint to the MSP to have them investigate their own guy for unlawful LEIN access, then I'd make a complaint to the Director of the MSP, and after that I'd complain to the FBI about all the color of law felonious crap the trooper had done.

    But again, that all depends on how much consent you gave him.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    Good call Locking down the recorder. cant wait to hear the audio

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    Audio is taking longer than planned....

    Will post later tonight.....

    the first of three is uploading now,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybBX04kE0Kk
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  7. #7
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    The only way an officer can "check to make sure you're not a felon" is when there's REASONABLE, ARTICULABLE SUSPICION that you ARE a felon.

    If there's no RAS, they cannot stop to make sure you're not a felon.

    Looking forward to the rest of the videos.

  8. #8
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    Double Tap.

  9. #9
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    Wow.. that was just sick.


    Detained for failure to ID...

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    From my understanding if your being detained you are required to give him your name, if the stop itself is unlawful though could they pursue charges for failure to ID after a unlawful detention?

    ETA what kind of recorder do you use with a lock feature?

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    choover wrote:
    From my understanding if your being detained you are required to give him your name, if the stop itself is unlawful though could they pursue charges for failure to ID after a unlawful detention?

    ETA what kind of recorder do you use with a lock feature?
    Lawful detention happens only after RAS that a crime has been committed.

    If you are suspected of a crime, they can ask for your name and where you're from. They can ask you for your ID. They can ask you for your sister's hand in marriage.

    You also have a 4th amendment right against search/seizure of property and person without due process, and a 5th amendment right against self-incrimination.

    You don't have to give them anything.

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    choover wrote:
    ETA what kind of recorder do you use with a lock feature?
    My recorder has a "hold" switch - made by Sony.

    Once you flip the switch, none of the buttons will work until you turn "hold" off. Handy for when you keep it going while in a pocket, or for when a cop tries to illegally tamper with evidence to be used against him.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    choover wrote:
    ETA what kind of recorder do you use with a lock feature?
    My recorder has a "hold" switch - made by Sony.

    Once you flip the switch, none of the buttons will work until you turn "hold" off. Handy for when you keep it going while in a pocket, or for when a cop tries to illegally tamper with evidence to be used against him.
    How do you turn hold off?

    Basically I am looking for one that unlocking it is not obvious

  14. #14
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    choover wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    choover wrote:
    ETA what kind of recorder do you use with a lock feature?
    My recorder has a "hold" switch - made by Sony.

    Once you flip the switch, none of the buttons will work until you turn "hold" off. Handy for when you keep it going while in a pocket, or for when a cop tries to illegally tamper with evidence to be used against him.
    How do you turn hold off?

    Basically I am looking for one that unlocking it is not obvious
    It's quite obvious, unfortunately. Just flip the (rather large) switch to off, and it's not on hold anymore.

  15. #15
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    choover wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    choover wrote:
    ETA what kind of recorder do you use with a lock feature?
    My recorder has a "hold" switch - made by Sony.

    Once you flip the switch, none of the buttons will work until you turn "hold" off. Handy for when you keep it going while in a pocket, or for when a cop tries to illegally tamper with evidence to be used against him.
    How do you turn hold off?

    Basically I am looking for one that unlocking it is not obvious
    It's quite obvious, unfortunately. Just flip the (rather large) switch to off, and it's not on hold anymore.
    We need to make one that is not obvious :P something with a lock/unlock code so info cannot be deleted

  16. #16
    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    Boy did he try to back pedal at the end of your recording! I bet he got a earful from his supervisor, and he knew he screwed up big time. His whole demeanor changed to the good cop role.The whole "how do I know your not a felon" is such crap!!!!! Thank god he wasn't able to delete your recording.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    Jblack44 wrote:
    Boy did he try to back pedal at the end of your recording! I bet he got a earful from his supervisor, and he knew he screwed up big time. His whole demeanor changed to the good cop role.The whole "how do I know your not a felon" is such crap!!!!! Thank god he wasn't able to delete your recording.
    I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I would do if I were a felon would be to walk around with an exposed pistol on my hip.

  18. #18
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    i just listened to the first part of lapeer20m contact withe the state trooper, and all i can say is this trooper did not have a clue as to what he was talking about. as forthis trooperbeing progun,pro cpl, pro open carry to me it was all lip service to lapeer20m. this trooper needs to go back to school and relearn all about terry stops and how to talk to the public

  19. #19
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Jblack44 wrote:
    Boy did he try to back pedal at the end of your recording! I bet he got a earful from his supervisor, and he knew he screwed up big time. His whole demeanor changed to the good cop role.The whole "how do I know your not a felon" is such crap!!!!! Thank god he wasn't able to delete your recording.
    I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I would do if I were a felon would be to walk around with an exposed pistol on my hip.
    x1000000000

  20. #20
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    Michigan is not "stop and identify state", period!!! You are not required to produce your ID at all when on foot. Not when have voluntary discussion with police, not when detained, not even when arrested (but you will not be able to secure bond without providing ID). You are not even required to verbally provide your name.

  21. #21
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    vid's are uploading....links should be live around 2300. I am off to bed...

    part II

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dw6xRDSI3Q

    Part III


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0os57vNunM
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    .
    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:36 PM.

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    .
    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:36 PM.

  24. #24
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    This sort of nonsense will only continue until officers such as this suffer a financial loss big enough to discourage others from such rights violations.

  25. #25
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    lapeer,

    Among your options is an FBI Color of Law complaint. This costs no money, and you should keep it on the table as one of your options you might want to pursue.

    http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/color.htm

    "U.S. law enforcement officers and other officials like judges, prosecutors, and security guards have been given tremendous power by local, state, and federal government agencies—authority they must have to enforce the law and ensure justice in our country. These powers include the authority to detain and arrest suspects, to search and seize property, to bring criminal charges, to make rulings in court, and to use deadly force in certain situations.

    "Preventing abuse of this authority, however, is equally necessary to the health of our nation’s democracy. That’s why it’s a federal crime for anyone acting under “color of law” willfully to deprive or conspire to deprive a person of a right protected by the Constitution or U.S. law. “Color of law” simply means that the person is using authority given to him or her by a local, state, or federal government agency."


    Given that it is known that the MSP is well aware of the legality of open carry (they've issued more than one bulletin about it) this officer could very well be found to have willfully deprived you of protected rights. Also, if your belief that other law enforcement officers were involved is true, the entire set of circumstances regarding their actionsmay rise to the level of conspiracy to deprive a citizen of rights, as is also addressed in this process.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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