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We would prefer you not carry a firearm

gogodawgs

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deanf wrote:
They are a public area and are subject to preemption.

Would you care to explain your legal theory? That's not my reading of the RCW. I'd be interested in yours.

The email appears to be a policy decision, based on what we are not sure. Their reasoning is not explained in the email.

Bill can explain it better but I will give a short version.

It is a state agency and they do not have the authority to ban carry (open or concealed) in their premises.

ONLY the legislature can ban carry! State preemption.
 

Aaron1124

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Correct - only the legislature can ban (on a legal level) carry, but they can make a policy against it. At least this is what I get our of the email.
 

Aaron1124

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You may have missed this, but here's an email explaining it. It's not horribly clear to me, but it's what I make out of it

Aaron,

The short answer is no—the preemption statute does not apply to state agencies. A state agency could not, however, criminalize the possession of firearms– the Legislature would have to do that. Although it’s not possible to predict how a court would view specific agency rules limiting firearms, there are certainly examples where agencies have done so. I am pasting a longer explanation from staff that provides some case history and examples that may be of interest to you.

Sincerely,
Rachel
_________________________________________
Rachel Smith
Legislative Assistant to Rep. Dave Upthegrove
Phone: (360) 786-7868
Webpage: http://hdc.leg.wa.gov/members/upthegrove/index.asp
Legislative Hotline: 1-800-562-6000


The preemption section, by its own terms, applies only to local jurisdictions. Under the state constitution, local jurisdictions have the authority to adopt and enforce public safety and health laws unless in conflict with the general laws of the state. RCW 9.41.290 expresses the Legislature's intent to limit the authority of local jurisdictions to pass firearms laws. Although this preemption language is fairly broad, in two cases the Washington Supreme Court has upheld local firearms policies or regulations against a challenge that they were preempted by RCW 9.41.290. In the first case, Cherry v. Municipality of Metropolitan Seattle, 116 Wn.2d 794 (1991), the Court held that RCW 9.41.290 is not preemptive of the authority of a municipal employer to regulate or prohibit a municipal employee's possession of firearms while on the job or in the workplace. The Court determined that the Legislature, by adopting the preemption statute, intended to eliminate a multiplicity of local criminal laws relating to firearms and to advance uniformity in criminal firearms regulation, and that the "laws and ordinances" preempted are laws of application to the general public, not internal rules for employee conduct. In a more recent case, Pacific Northwest Shooting Park Association v. City of Sequim, 158 Wn.2d 342 (2006), the Court upheld the authority of the city of Sequim to impose conditions on the sale of firearms at a gun show being held in the city's convention center. The conditions imposed by the city were a part of a permit for private use of its property, and were not laws or regulations of application to the general public.

State agencies are generally given the authority to adopt rules to administer their programs. The Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission has adopted a rule that generally prohibits the discharge of firearms in upland state park areas (WAC 352-32-120). Many universities and colleges have adopted rules prohibiting possession of firearms on campuses, and other state agencies have adopted rules prohibiting firearms in certain places (e.g., Office of Administrative Hearings facilities, facilities operated by the Washington State School for the Blind or School for the Deaf, grounds of horse racing associations, and licensed child care centers). I am not aware of any legal challenges to these rules. As to whether or not the Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission could adopt a rule prohibiting possession of firearms on state parks, I do not know whether a challenge to the rule would be upheld.
 

gogodawgs

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deanf wrote:
I agree. The email appears to simply be their policy that they choose to enact. They can restrict carry if they choose to, but thankfully, most state agencies don't.

Sorry, misread that last post of yours.

State agencies make policy for their employees.

They do not make them for customers and citizens.
 

Aaron1124

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gogodawgs wrote:
deanf wrote:
I agree. The email appears to simply be their policy that they choose to enact. They can restrict carry if they choose to, but thankfully, most state agencies don't.

Sorry, misread that last post of yours.

State agencies make policy for their employees.

They do not make them for customers and citizens.
I don't see it preempted though, I just see it's not on the list of places where it's illegal.
Also, why isn't the legislature clear on whether or not the preemption law for cities and counties applies to employees of said city or county?
 

Aaron1124

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M1Gunr wrote:
Also, why isn't the legislature clear on whether or not the preemption law for cities and counties applies to employees of said city or county?
but it is...
See Cherry v. The Municipality Of Metropolitan Seattle
http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;id=23

See page 3 paragraph 3
Too bad he was also in possession of drugs.. that didn't help his case, and makes me wonder if they would have looked at it different had he not had the drugs.
 

Bill Starks

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The District manager for my area has informed me that we are ok to carry in the stores and that the Liquor Control Board signs (under 21) are invalid at the liquor store locations.

If the store manager has an issue with your weapon I would take it up with the District manager of your area.

Spokane Area district manager is: [font="Trebuchet MS, Arial, san-serif"]GRANT BULSKI(509-625-5523)[/font]
http://liq.wa.gov/services/searchresults.asp
 

amzbrady

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M1Gunr wrote:
The District manager for my area has informed me that we are ok to carry in the stores and that the Liquor Control Board signs (under 21) are invalid at the liquor store locations.

If the store manager has an issue with your weapon I would take it up with the District manager of your area.

Spokane Area district manager is: [font="Trebuchet MS, Arial, san-serif"]GRANT BULSKI (509-625-5523)[/font]
http://liq.wa.gov/services/searchresults.asp
I wonder if people are mistaking the signs that say you must be 21 to purchase, thinking they say no one under 21 allowed.
 

amzbrady

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M1Gunr wrote:
I wonder if people are mistaking the signs that say you must be 21 to purchase, thinking they say no one under 21 allowed.
That was exactly the issue I got corrected in Tacoma.
ahhh, I see. I know our liquor store has a sign that says we card everyone, no one under 21 can purchase, or something like that. I take my daughter in when I go in.
 

SpyderTattoo

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If the liquor store is a state entity that is not a school, court, jail, or limited to persons 21 or older, how can they have a policy that disallows carrying a gun? They don't serve alcohol, they just sell it.

I see it as, because it's a state entity it's like public property, which is covered under preemption. It's lawful to walk down the street with your sidearm. This is what I've learned from this website.
 

deanf

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I see it as, because it's a state entity it's like public property, which is covered under preemption.

You might want to re-read the RCW. It preempts counties and municipalities. The liquor store is neither of these.

Preemption is not the proper argument here.
 

SpyderTattoo

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Ah, I see what you're saying. Yes, not a city, county, municipality. Preemption wouldn't apply directly. But because it's a state entity, like any public property, they can't make a policy prohibiting guns. Just like they can't do that at the state capitol.
 

deanf

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Actually Title 66 gives the Liquor Control Board fairly broad authority to run the stores as they see fit. Of course they still have to comply with the state constitution.

We get back to the government-acting-as-private-property-owner argument, which still isn't settled. That's the argument I would use if I was the bureaucrat that made the rule banning guns in liquor stores.

Given that preemption doesn't apply, the only argument left is the constitutional one.
 

BigDave

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Look at the first sentence of State Preemption-" The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state "

The State of Washington meaning the legislature not State Agencies or Employees and as to Cherry v Metro and the Sequim Case does not apply to this area as Cherry was an employee employer relationship and the Sequim had to to do with breaking of a contract between the two, State Preemption was not allowed as it was not properly before the court.

Both of those cases are misrepresented by the anti's to try and get a hold on their agenda.

This type of action was just thrown out on Seattle Parks Gun Restrictions, it was a rule not a law and the King County Judged ruled it was in violation of State Preemption.

The Liquor Control Board controls where the restrictions of those under 21 are prohibited in an establishment classified by the state liquor control board.
They do not post Liquor Stores as they do not serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.
 

deanf

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The State of Washington meaning the legislature not State Agencies or Employees and as to Cherry v Metro and the Sequim Case does not apply to this area as Cherry was an employee employer relationship and the Sequim had to to do with breaking of a contract between the two, State Preemption was not allowed as it was not properly before the court.

Simmer down. No one is making a Cherry or Sequim argument in this case.

Look at the first sentence of State Preemption-" The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state "

But the state cannot preempt itself. That's a legal absurdity.

This type of action was just thrown out on Seattle Parks Gun Restrictions, it was a rule not a law and the King County Judged ruled it was in violation of State Preemption.

Irrelevant. Concerned a local government enforcing an administrative rule. That's not what we are discussing.

The Liquor Control Board controls where the restrictions of those under 21 are prohibited in an establishment classified by the state liquor control board.
They do not post Liquor Stores as they do not serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.

They also control (and set the rules for conduct in) their retail outlets. Since the government-acting-as-private-property-owner issue is not settled, this is the argument they would make if they chose to ban guns. Constitutionally, it's suspect, but clearly not a preemption violation.
 

BigDave

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deanf wrote:
The State of Washington meaning the legislature not State Agencies or Employees and as to Cherry v Metro and the Sequim Case does not apply to this area as Cherry was an employee employer relationship and the Sequim had to to do with breaking of a contract between the two, State Preemption was not allowed as it was not properly before the court.
Simmer down. No one is making a Cherry or Sequim argument in this case.

Look at the first sentence of State Preemption-" The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state "
But the state cannot preempt itself. That's a legal absurdity.

This type of action was just thrown out on Seattle Parks Gun Restrictions, it was a rule not a law and the King County Judged ruled it was in violation of State Preemption.
Irrelevant. Concerned a local government enforcing an administrative rule. That's not what we are discussing.

The Liquor Control Board controls where the restrictions of those under 21 are prohibited in an establishment classified by the state liquor control board.
They do not post Liquor Stores as they do not serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.
They also control (and set the rules for conduct in) their retail outlets. Since the government-acting-as-private-property-owner issue is not settled, this is the argument they would make if they chose to ban guns. Constitutionally, it's suspect, but clearly not a preemption violation.
dean piss up a rope and learn to read what was written.

City Agencies do not have the authority to enforce any rules upon citizens that are in violation of the State Constitution or State Law.

The State Legislature are the only ones that can make or change the law not an agency.

Agencies set rules upon how they operate not restrict the rights of the People of Washington.

Go ahead and continue with your promoting anti-gun agenda.

So to directly answer the OP question, they do not have the authority to restrict you from carrying your weapon in a Washington State Liquor Store and the arguments oppose this position are off base.
 
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