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Thread: Question about the U.S. Military and unconstitutional laws

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    Once you swear in to the United States Military, you take an oath to defend the United States Constitution, right?

    Why is it that there are numerous soldiers who have verbally admitted that they will follow any orders given, even if it involved turning on the very citizens that they swore to take an oath for, and seize their weapons, if need be?

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Are the soldiers trained to be able to interpret the constitution they swore to uphold? Are they familiar with the intricacies of the case law surrounding all the myriad rights and responsibilities of a citizen of the United States? Personally, I would be more worried by the thought of a commander giving an unconstitutional order than whether the order would be followed. Mostly because I'm certain it would be.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    That's pretty much what I'm saying. I have heard many soldiers say that they would not carry out an unconstitutional order, but those are just words. What I saw from New Orleans disgusted me, both from the police and the national guard.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    The last place I worked was a major defense contractor (Northrop Grumman) and they frequently would have seminars and such at our installlation. That meant a lot of military personnel wondering the premises. I took advantage of this situation to ask them what they would do if they received orders from the executive branch to aid in the confiscation of privately owned firearms.

    To a man, they said that this would be an illegal order and they would not carry it out. Of course we know it would be an illegal order because the president takes an oath to defend the Constitution and such an order would be in direct violation of the Constitution and in fact, would be an act of high treason punishable by up to and including his death.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    The question would be, When you are an officer Aaron how are you going to react, what are you going to do?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    The question would be, When you are an officer Aaron how are you going to react, what are you going to do?
    I can say that if it ever came down to that, I will risk losing my job rather than carry out an unlawful and unconstitutional order. Most people at the police departments that I am interested in know exactly how I feel - as do my relatives in law enforcement. They feel exactly the same, and it hasn't hindered their career in the least. I may be a bit old fashion, but I live my life by a moral code, and there is absolutely no part of me that would ever "sell out" or allow me to fall to peer pressure, so to speak.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    The question would be, When you are an officer Aaron how are you going to react, what are you going to do?
    I can say that if it ever came down to that, I will risk losing my job rather than carry out an unlawful and unconstitutional order. Most people at the police departments that I am interested in know exactly how I feel - as do my relatives in law enforcement. They feel exactly the same, and it hasn't hindered their career in the least. I may be a bit old fashion, but I live my life by a moral code, and there is absolutely no part of me that would ever "sell out" or allow me to fall to peer pressure, so to speak.
    That makes you a gentlemen and an honorable man. My hat's off to you, sir.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Thank you for the words. And I mean that!

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    The first line I swore was to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States..." Anything after that must meet the standard of that line. The other part is to obey lawful orders of the officers appointed over me. "Lawful" orders. Seemed pretty simple to me. And as an officer, was simpler yet. I would neither give nor follow an order that was unconstitutional. Period.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Gunslinger wrote:
    The first line I swore was to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States..." Anything after that must meet the standard of that line. The other part is to obey lawful orders of the officers appointed over me. "Lawful" orders. Seemed pretty simple to me. And as an officer, was simpler yet. I would neither give nor follow an order that was unconstitutional. Period.
    Right. And an order of such magnitude against the Bill of Rights coming from a president would in and of itself and by definition, be illegal. He cannot issue such an order with the expectation that it be carried out because the order would be null and void and its obedience, criminal and treasonous. At the moment a commander in chief directed an order of this nature, he would be subject to immediate arrest to be held for trial.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    I have a close friend who just graduated from OCS for the Marine Corps. I asked him point blank, that if he were ordered to fire on civilians, what would he do?

    He said, in not so many words, that the only time he would fire back on civilians would be in self defense. He also mentioned that he is not to follow unlawful orders. He's got his head on straight, so I'm not worried about him.
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

    Vice President of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, ECU Chapter

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    If you are in the military, a policeman or anything similar including a private citizen you are never required to follow an unlawful order. That is your right and responsibility to do. The problem is who gets to decide that it is an unlawful order. If you truly feel tht it isan unlawul order and are willing to take your chances on whoever deciding that you are correct in it being unlawful then you should not follow it. The reason given by many of the nazi's was "I was just following orders". That may or may not release you from responsibility. Either way if you decide to not follow be sure you are right and that someone higher up will agree with you. Otherwise you are out on a limb with you and your principles and someone with a saw in their hand busy cutting you off.

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    SNIP Why is it that there are numerous soldiers who have verbally admitted that they will follow any orders given, even if it involved turning on the very citizens that they swore to take an oath for, and seize their weapons, if need be?
    No offense, but where did you see a list, survey, or interview notes of "numerous soldiers who have verbally admitted they will follow any orders given, even if..."?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member MarlboroLts5150's Avatar
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    Several people here have said the same thing I am now going to. I will NEVER obey or carry out or give to my men an unlawful order.....period.

    I have as of yet never been put intothat position, and hopefully never will. After seeing what happened after Katrina, and just watching the news every night just strengthens my resolve.

    There IS a line....and I will NEVER cross it.



    BTW...just FYI....E-6 Torpedoman, Submariner, US NAVY since 2002....and a PATRIOT!
    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Several people here have said the same thing I am now going to. I will NEVER obey or carry out or give to my men an unlawful order.....period.

    I have as of yet never been put intothat position, and hopefully never will. After seeing what happened after Katrina, and just watching the news every night just strengthens my resolve.

    There IS a line....and I will NEVER cross it.



    BTW...just FYI....E-6 Torpedoman, Submariner, US NAVY since 2002....and a PATRIOT!
    God bless and keep you, and thank you for your service to our nation. You sentiments are exactly what Americans would hope to hear from our military.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Soldiers aren't supposed to think, they are just supposed to obey orders...the chain of command is paramount.Either theyobey ordersor they do not. Can't have it both ways and have an effective military, and that's how it's been since the beginning. And should be still.

    If this is no longer what the American people want, then the whole military culture needs to be completely done away with and rebuilt from scratch, starting at the very top with the President.

    -- John D.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    cloudcroft wrote:
    Soldiers aren't supposed to think, they are just supposed to obey orders...the chain of command is paramount.Either theyobey ordersor they do not. Can't have it both ways and have an effective military, and that's how it's been since the beginning. And should be still.

    If this is no longer what the American people want, then the whole military culture needs to be completely done away with and rebuilt from scratch, starting at the very top with the President.

    -- John D.
    Talk like this scares me as for an army to be sucessful you are correct. History is full of conquering heros that by todays moral standards would be executed before they could even get to trial. In fact if you look at some of the "great" leaders they make Hitler look amateurish. Genghis Khan is remembered differently by various people but genocide was just another tool in his bag. His soldiers destroyed one major city to the point that every person in the city was killed, the city burned an destroyed to the point that no one is even sure where it was. This was a city thought to be of over 100.000 people, possibly many times that. Do you think that one of his soldiers would have balkes at carrying out an illegal order?

    What you say does scare me that while we tell soldiers that they are not supposed to think we turn right around and say they have to. I am afraid that "War is hell" and there are no morals in war but that doesn't fit our moden attitude. Having morals in war is like carrying a knife to a gunfight and unfortunately our enemies have the gun. There is no better example than Viet Nam.

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    PT111 wrote:
    SNIP Genghis Khan...Do you think that one of his soldiers would have balkes at carrying out an illegal order?
    Since he was emperor, his orders were automatically legal.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Yes...THOSE people really knew how to wage war. So did the no-nonsense Crusaders. Today we just use the word whether it be the 'war' on terrorism, 'war' on crime or 'war' on drugs. It's all namby-pamby BS. The rest of the world laughs.

    Yeteven in more recent time -- WWII Germany for example, or the Russian Red Army -- imagine being a soldier and disobeying an order to burn something or shoot/execute someone (or LOTS of people). You'd be shot along with them. Are we to expect soldiers to disregard the Prime Directive of ALL life: Self Preservation?

    I for one amunable to hold them to such a high standard.

    -- John D.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Anyone that might be interested, or that hasn't heard of this group, check them out. And their membership is growing as fast as it is here.

    http://oathkeepers.org/oath/


    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    I'm going to chuck in 2 cents.

    A lot of the soldiers I served with, had no clue why they were serving, at least initially.


    Some wanted college.
    Some didn't want to run a dairy farm in some pasture in Maryland.
    Then some, wanted to make the most of what they could offer, for the benefit of the citizens of the US.

    Hell I can remember a female soldier who literally made sure we was pregnant, or recovering from a pregnancy every day of her life.

    I guess a free paycheck and medical for her family?


    There is however a TON of mental processing that goes on. A change in character and personality is often brought on by this process. Anybody who has sent their youngins off to Basic Training, and met them at graduation took note of it somewhere in the immediate vicinity of the parade field.

    Things are definitely not the same.

    Loyalty is one of the core components of a soldiers existence.
    (They still teaching L.D.R.S.H.I.P. in the Army?)

    Loyalty to "what" is the best question any of us could ask.

    For some, it's the "Chain of Command".
    For others it's "Your fellow soldiers".
    Then there's "To the United States".

    I do have to say, that outside of the oath of enlistment though, there is not a lot of conversation or training (none actually) on the Constitution. Not even a passing reference.

    Some have been wise enough to look up, and study, the Constitution that they swore an oath to.

    Others would be willing to remain ignorant, and therein lies the problem. These are your federal baby killers.

    Hate to put it that way, but that's the truth.

    Need proof? Look at Katrina videos.



    Let's put this in perspective though.

    If a soldier is loyal to his or her government, that is not so much of an issue so long as government is abiding by the Constitution they also swore to defend.

    When "the people" allow their government to violate the constitution, they are setting themselves up for failure. They are also setting their service members up for failure.

    So yeah, make your votes count.
    Hold your elected representatives accountable.
    Impeach those who oppose the constitution.


    Remember first and foremost, that the military is a big, stonkin, ever sharp blade of war. It is the iron fist of destruction. It is meant to engage and destroy enemies of the United States, in close, personal combat.

    It is not a police force.

    Not in this country, or any other.

    As Forrest would say, "That's all I got to say about that..."


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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    It would depend upon which part of the oath the person deemed to be more important to them:

    I, Joe Soldier, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me according to regulation and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    To some persons the "obey the orders" part is more important than the "support and defend part", especially when the "President of the United States" becomes a domestic enemy of the Constitution.

    You can see, though, how the two halves of the oath can conflict with each other. I believe the first half far outweighs the second half.
    I see no conflict at all. The president is also required to support and defend the Constitution which means that anything he does outside of it is, by definition, not only illegal but requires no obligation of direction or order upon the military.

    The first obligation of the military is to the Constitution... not the commander in chief or any other officer. Obligations to those individuals must follow the supreme law which is the Constitution.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  23. #23
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    slowfiveoh wrote:
    I'm going to chuck in 2 cents.

    A lot of the soldiers I served with, had no clue why they were serving, at least initially.


    Some wanted college.
    Some didn't want to run a dairy farm in some pasture in Maryland.
    Then some, wanted to make the most of what they could offer, for the benefit of the citizens of the US.

    Hell I can remember a female soldier who literally made sure we was pregnant, or recovering from a pregnancy every day of her life.

    I guess a free paycheck and medical for her family?


    There is however a TON of mental processing that goes on. A change in character and personality is often brought on by this process. Anybody who has sent their youngins off to Basic Training, and met them at graduation took note of it somewhere in the immediate vicinity of the parade field.

    Things are definitely not the same.

    Loyalty is one of the core components of a soldiers existence.
    (They still teaching L.D.R.S.H.I.P. in the Army?)

    Loyalty to "what" is the best question any of us could ask.

    For some, it's the "Chain of Command".
    For others it's "Your fellow soldiers".
    Then there's "To the United States".

    I do have to say, that outside of the oath of enlistment though, there is not a lot of conversation or training (none actually) on the Constitution. Not even a passing reference.

    Some have been wise enough to look up, and study, the Constitution that they swore an oath to.

    Others would be willing to remain ignorant, and therein lies the problem. These are your federal baby killers.

    Hate to put it that way, but that's the truth.

    Need proof? Look at Katrina videos.



    Let's put this in perspective though.

    If a soldier is loyal to his or her government, that is not so much of an issue so long as government is abiding by the Constitution they also swore to defend.

    When "the people" allow their government to violate the constitution, they are setting themselves up for failure. They are also setting their service members up for failure.

    So yeah, make your votes count.
    Hold your elected representatives accountable.
    Impeach those who oppose the constitution.


    Remember first and foremost, that the military is a big, stonkin, ever sharp blade of war. It is the iron fist of destruction. It is meant to engage and destroy enemies of the United States, in close, personal combat.

    It is not a police force.

    Not in this country, or any other.

    As Forrest would say, "That's all I got to say about that..."

    Absolutely and spot on correct.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    The question would be, When you are an officer Aaron how are you going to react, what are you going to do?
    I can say that if it ever came down to that, I will risk losing my job rather than carry out an unlawful and unconstitutional order. Most people at the police departments that I am interested in know exactly how I feel - as do my relatives in law enforcement. They feel exactly the same, and it hasn't hindered their career in the least. I may be a bit old fashion, but I live my life by a moral code, and there is absolutely no part of me that would ever "sell out" or allow me to fall to peer pressure, so to speak.
    That makes you a gentlemen and an honorable man. My hat's off to you, sir.
    +1 Aaron hope you rub off on set a fine example for your peers.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Once you swear in to the United States Military, you take an oath to defend the United States Constitution, right?

    Why is it that there are numerous soldiers who have verbally admitted that they will follow any orders given, even if it involved turning on the very citizens that they swore to take an oath for, and seize their weapons, if need be?
    because they are not trained to think, they are trained to kill.

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