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Question about the U.S. Military and unconstitutional laws

Aaron1124

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Once you swear in to the United States Military, you take an oath to defend the United States Constitution, right?

Why is it that there are numerous soldiers who have verbally admitted that they will follow any orders given, even if it involved turning on the very citizens that they swore to take an oath for, and seize their weapons, if need be?
 

Brimstone Baritone

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Are the soldiers trained to be able to interpret the constitution they swore to uphold? Are they familiar with the intricacies of the case law surrounding all the myriad rights and responsibilities of a citizen of the United States? Personally, I would be more worried by the thought of a commander giving an unconstitutional order than whether the order would be followed. Mostly because I'm certain it would be.
 

Aaron1124

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That's pretty much what I'm saying. I have heard many soldiers say that they would not carry out an unconstitutional order, but those are just words. What I saw from New Orleans disgusted me, both from the police and the national guard.
 

SouthernBoy

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The last place I worked was a major defense contractor (Northrop Grumman) and they frequently would have seminars and such at our installlation. That meant a lot of military personnel wondering the premises. I took advantage of this situation to ask them what they would do if they received orders from the executive branch to aid in the confiscation of privately owned firearms.

To a man, they said that this would be an illegal order and they would not carry it out. Of course we know it would be an illegal order because the president takes an oath to defend the Constitution and such an order would be in direct violation of the Constitution and in fact, would be an act of high treason punishable by up to and including his death.
 

Aaron1124

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
The question would be, When you are an officer Aaron how are you going to react, what are you going to do?
I can say that if it ever came down to that, I will risk losing my job rather than carry out an unlawful and unconstitutional order. Most people at the police departments that I am interested in know exactly how I feel - as do my relatives in law enforcement. They feel exactly the same, and it hasn't hindered their career in the least. I may be a bit old fashion, but I live my life by a moral code, and there is absolutely no part of me that would ever "sell out" or allow me to fall to peer pressure, so to speak.
 

SouthernBoy

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Aaron1124 wrote:
sudden valley gunner wrote:
The question would be, When you are an officer Aaron how are you going to react, what are you going to do?
I can say that if it ever came down to that, I will risk losing my job rather than carry out an unlawful and unconstitutional order. Most people at the police departments that I am interested in know exactly how I feel - as do my relatives in law enforcement. They feel exactly the same, and it hasn't hindered their career in the least. I may be a bit old fashion, but I live my life by a moral code, and there is absolutely no part of me that would ever "sell out" or allow me to fall to peer pressure, so to speak.
That makes you a gentlemen and an honorable man. My hat's off to you, sir.
 

Gunslinger

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The first line I swore was to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States..." Anything after that must meet the standard of that line. The other part is to obey lawful orders of the officers appointed over me. "Lawful" orders. Seemed pretty simple to me. And as an officer, was simpler yet. I would neither give nor follow an order that was unconstitutional. Period.
 

SouthernBoy

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Gunslinger wrote:
The first line I swore was to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States..." Anything after that must meet the standard of that line. The other part is to obey lawful orders of the officers appointed over me. "Lawful" orders. Seemed pretty simple to me. And as an officer, was simpler yet. I would neither give nor follow an order that was unconstitutional. Period.
Right. And an order of such magnitude against the Bill of Rights coming from a president would in and of itself and by definition, be illegal. He cannot issue such an order with the expectation that it be carried out because the order would be null and void and its obedience, criminal and treasonous. At the moment a commander in chief directed an order of this nature, he would be subject to immediate arrest to be held for trial.
 

elixin77

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I have a close friend who just graduated from OCS for the Marine Corps. I asked him point blank, that if he were ordered to fire on civilians, what would he do?

He said, in not so many words, that the only time he would fire back on civilians would be in self defense. He also mentioned that he is not to follow unlawful orders. He's got his head on straight, so I'm not worried about him.
 

PT111

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If you are in the military, a policeman or anything similar including a private citizen you are never required to follow an unlawful order. That is your right and responsibility to do. The problem is who gets to decide that it is an unlawful order. If you truly feel tht it isan unlawul order and are willing to take your chances on whoever deciding that you are correct in it being unlawful then you should not follow it. The reason given by many of the nazi's was "I was just following orders". That may or may not release you from responsibility. Either way if you decide to not follow be sure you are right and that someone higher up will agree with you. Otherwise you are out on a limb with you and your principles and someone with a saw in their hand busy cutting you off.
 

Citizen

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Aaron1124 wrote:
SNIP Why is it that there are numerous soldiers who have verbally admitted that they will follow any orders given, even if it involved turning on the very citizens that they swore to take an oath for, and seize their weapons, if need be?
No offense, but where did you see a list, survey, or interview notes of "numerous soldiers who have verbally admitted they will follow any orders given, even if..."?
 

MarlboroLts5150

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Several people here have said the same thing I am now going to. I will NEVER obey or carry out or give to my men an unlawful order.....period.

I have as of yet never been put intothat position, and hopefully never will. After seeing what happened after Katrina, and just watching the news every night just strengthens my resolve.

There IS a line....and I will NEVER cross it.



BTW...just FYI....E-6 Torpedoman, Submariner, US NAVY since 2002....and a PATRIOT!
 

SouthernBoy

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MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
Several people here have said the same thing I am now going to. I will NEVER obey or carry out or give to my men an unlawful order.....period.

I have as of yet never been put intothat position, and hopefully never will. After seeing what happened after Katrina, and just watching the news every night just strengthens my resolve.

There IS a line....and I will NEVER cross it.



BTW...just FYI....E-6 Torpedoman, Submariner, US NAVY since 2002....and a PATRIOT!
God bless and keep you, and thank you for your service to our nation. You sentiments are exactly what Americans would hope to hear from our military.
 

cloudcroft

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Soldiers aren't supposed to think, they are just supposed to obey orders...the chain of command is paramount.Either theyobey ordersor they do not. Can't have it both ways and have an effective military, and that's how it's been since the beginning. And should be still.

If this is no longer what the American people want, then the whole military culture needs to be completely done away with and rebuilt from scratch, starting at the very top with the President.

-- John D.
 

PT111

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cloudcroft wrote:
Soldiers aren't supposed to think, they are just supposed to obey orders...the chain of command is paramount.Either theyobey ordersor they do not. Can't have it both ways and have an effective military, and that's how it's been since the beginning. And should be still.

If this is no longer what the American people want, then the whole military culture needs to be completely done away with and rebuilt from scratch, starting at the very top with the President.

-- John D.

Talk like this scares me as for an army to be sucessful you are correct. History is full of conquering heros that by todays moral standards would be executed before they could even get to trial. In fact if you look at some of the "great" leaders they make Hitler look amateurish. Genghis Khan is remembered differently by various people but genocide was just another tool in his bag. His soldiers destroyed one major city to the point that every person in the city was killed, the city burned an destroyed to the point that no one is even sure where it was. This was a city thought to be of over 100.000 people, possibly many times that. Do you think that one of his soldiers would have balkes at carrying out an illegal order?

What you say does scare me that while we tell soldiers that they are not supposed to think we turn right around and say they have to. I am afraid that "War is hell" and there are no morals in war but that doesn't fit our moden attitude. Having morals in war is like carrying a knife to a gunfight and unfortunately our enemies have the gun. There is no better example than Viet Nam.
 

Citizen

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PT111 wrote:
SNIP Genghis Khan...Do you think that one of his soldiers would have balkes at carrying out an illegal order?
Since he was emperor, his orders were automatically legal. :)
 

cloudcroft

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Yes...THOSE people really knew how to wage war. So did the no-nonsense Crusaders. Today we just use the word whether it be the 'war' on terrorism, 'war' on crime or 'war' on drugs. It's all namby-pamby BS. The rest of the world laughs.

Yeteven in more recent time -- WWII Germany for example, or the Russian Red Army -- imagine being a soldier and disobeying an order to burn something or shoot/execute someone (or LOTS of people). You'd be shot along with them. Are we to expect soldiers to disregard the Prime Directive of ALL life: Self Preservation?

I for one amunable to hold them to such a high standard.

-- John D.
 
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