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Thread: Just my two cents

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    Aside from the fact that OC is apparently legal here in AL,
    the majority of us also pay for a CC permit. I have a suggestion.
    Why not give the state of AL the task of issuing a CC/OC permit.
    They could perfom the background check and issue the permit
    just as the sherrifs offices do. Let's say $30 per year, $15 to the state,
    $15 to your county of residence. This way both entities
    collect revenue and we as citizens get what we want. I may be wrong
    but it just seemed to me that it would be a win win scenario.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Alwaysdoubletap wrote:
    Aside from the fact that OC is apparently legal here in AL,
    the majority of us also pay for a CC permit. I have a suggestion.
    Why not give the state of AL the task of issuing a CC/OC permit.
    They could perfom the background check and issue the permit
    just as the sherrifs offices do. Let's say $30 per year, $15 to the state,
    $15 to your county of residence. This way both entities
    collect revenue and we as citizens get what we want. I may be wrong
    but it just seemed to me that it would be a win win scenario.
    How is that in any way the citizens getting what they want?

    Paying for a privilege, not a right.

    Being registered like a sex offender for it.

    Revenuers....

    I don't see anything good in there.
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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Hows about they leave my rights alone?
    How about they responsibly spend the money I already give them?
    How about you take that CC permit and shove it up your ?


    What exactly do so many people have to hide that they don't want to wear a weapon openly? You know it used to be only criminals felt the need to hide their weapons. :X

    I'm already nothing more than a number and a vote to most echelons of government, and I would rather not have to 'license' any more of my rights, thankyouverymuch.


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    mcdonalk wrote:
    Hows about they leave my rights alone?
    How about they responsibly spend the money I already give them?
    How about you take that CC permit and shove it up your ?


    What exactly do so many people have to hide that they don't want to wear a weapon openly? You know it used to be only criminals felt the need to hide their weapons. :X

    I'm already nothing more than a number and a vote to most echelons of government, and I would rather not have to 'license' any more of my rights, thankyouverymuch.


    :deep breathing exercises while counting to ten:
    Okay. I'm cool. I got to go to work.
    +1

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    First of all ,don't pee yourself you might get
    all fussy if you do.I was simply saying that we already have to purchase CC permits. I too like to OC when the mood strikes me or the situation
    calls for it. Although there are places and times that CC gives
    you the tactical advantage and that's not a bad thing. As far as my
    suggestion for a combined CC/OC permit think of this.
    1.If you were questioned by a Leo , all that you would need to do
    is show the proposed permit and that would be that.
    2. Every firearm that you purchase new is registered by
    BATF anyway and your backgound is checked.
    3. A felon can not legally purchase a firearm or a permit to
    carry one.
    And I agree that we shouldn't pay for the right to OC in the first place.
    But let's face it the AL State goverment probably won't pass legislation to
    clarify the right to OC unless they can profit from it.
    And as far as the shoving of a permit in relation to
    me I assure you will require much more ability , attitude,
    and effort than you could ever aspire to have. But at the
    risk of severe and repetitive beatings you are welcome and encouraged
    to try.

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    "What exactly do so many people have to hide that they don't want to wear a weapon openly? You know it used to be only criminals felt the need to hide their weapons. :X-- mcdonalk

    I don't think suggesting that decent citizens who CC instead of OC (IF they can) aresimilar tocriminals is very helpfulsince it's not good 'for the cause' that OC people denigrate CC people -- or vice-versa. So it would be better if you used more'diplomatic' language, if you will,than you did with that particular statement cited above.

    IMO, BOTH carry options have their uses depending upon the circumstances. And in some states, like mine (TX), we can NOT legally OC, so CC (legally or not) is our only option.

    As for why lots of CC people do not want to OC (where legal), most likely they want to avoid attracting attention to themselves and/or experiencing 'unpleasant encounters' with anti-gunsheeple -- or cops who don't know the law (or don't care).

    -- John D.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Alwaysdoubletap wrote:
    1.If you were questioned by a Leo , all that you would need to do
    is show the proposed permit and that would be that.
    For that matter, let's make everyone get permits to move about in public places. That way, if a law enforcement official wants to question you about why you are going to the store, you can show them your permit.... Same idea, right?

    I would rather not compromise my civil rights in exchange for lessening police harassment. If they bother you, that is ignorance on their part, not yours.

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    Well, we've heard all that before about 'our rights' -- and I agree -- but STILL we have no one stepping forward to carry 'illegally,' get arrested andbe a test case all the way to the SCOTUS if necessary (IF they will even hear it when it gets there...they often do not, as they fear controversial issues).

    Any volunteers in a non-OC state to go out and OC?

    This might HAVE to be done in HI to get that state 'corrected' but I'm sure no one is looking forward to being a test case. Even I -- if I end up moving there and HI still has neither CC or OC by then.

    -- John D.

    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Why don't we just get the law changed back to what it used to be? Previously, you did not need a CC to carry in a vehicle. You only needed a CC in a car if you gun was in the "dash compartment" as the judge ruled. If the gun was on you, or on the seat next to you, or on the dashboard, it was not considered concealed. Let's change the law back, go back to OC w/o the need for a permit or, better yet, carry anyway we want without the government telling us otherwise. Let's change the laws and control the government, not let the government control us. Why should we have to pay to do concealed what we can already do openly? Does that make sense to you?
    Check out my home page @ www.alabamaopencarry.com and Carry On!

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    alwaysdt: Let me try this one more time, because you have not reacted to this point when others have made it.

    Carrying (bearing) is a right. If it is licensed, it becomes a privilege granted by the State at its whim and is no longer a right. Requiring a license to OC is absolutely unacceptable. Period.

    Others may argue that licensed CC is also an infringement on the RKBA. I don't--as long as OC is not restricted for LAC.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    cloudcroft wrote:
    What exactly do so many people have to hide that they don't want to wear a weapon openly? You know it used to be only criminals felt the need to hide their weapons. :X-- mcdonalk
    I don't think suggesting that decent citizens who CC instead of OC (IF they can) aresimilar tocriminals is very helpfulsince it's not good 'for the cause' that OC people denigrate CC people -- or vice-versa. So it would be better if you used more'diplomatic' language, if you will,than you did with that particular statement cited above.
    -- John D.
    We all have our sore subjects, and this one is mine. If I said "the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly" (Alabama Code 1852, ยง15) would that be diplomatic enough for you? In Alabama, at least, carrying a weapon concealed is a crime. It wasn't until the mid 1900's that the government started to issue permits to individuals so they could commit that crime without repercussion.

    Do I think that everyone who CCs is a criminal? Hardly. It is, however, very sad to see the act of bearing arms move from something all civilized people do, to something you have to keep hidden or risk being branded a social outcast.

    Should I be more diplomatic to those who carry concealed because of legitimate reasons other than social pressure? I would like to think that I am. If I came across as talking about those people, then I apologize.

    Alwaysdoubletap wrote:
    First of all ,don't pee yourself you might get
    all fussy if you do.
    That stings a little. Wait, no. That was indigestion.

    I was simply saying that we already have to purchase CC permits. I too like to OC when the mood strikes me or the situation
    calls for it.
    Do we have to purchase CCP now? I thought it was still a choice. I don't have one. Would it make my life easier? Due to a certain wording in a certain law yes it would, but I am not going to cave to the social pressure to conceal a weapon just because the legislature has made carrying openly inconvenient. What exactly is the OC 'mood'? When does a situation 'call for' OC? If I'm ever somewhere I think I need a gun, I'm in the wrong place.

    Although there are places and times that CC gives
    you the tactical advantage and that's not a bad thing.
    Oh, you're one of those CCers.

    As far as my
    suggestion for a combined CC/OC permit think of this.
    1.If you were questioned by a Leo , all that you would need to do
    is show the proposed permit and that would be that.
    Why would I do that? Or are you a proponent of the requirement to identify as well as detainment without RAS?
    2. Every firearm that you purchase new is registered by
    BATF anyway and your backgound is checked.
    And that should be more than enough to satisfy any curiosity about my choice to exercise my rights. Why do you insist that it be taken farther?
    3. A felon can not legally purchase a firearm or a permit to
    carry one.
    And yet, they still have them... Imagine that.

    And I agree that we shouldn't pay for the right to OC in the first place.
    But let's face it the AL State goverment probably won't pass legislation to
    clarify the right to OC unless they can profit from it.
    See, we can agree on something.

    And as far as the shoving of a permit in relation to
    me I assure you will require much more ability , attitude,
    and effort than you could ever aspire to have. But at the
    risk of severe and repetitive beatings you are welcome and encouraged
    to try.
    If I had said, for instance, "How about I come down (up, over) there and shove..." then your response would be appropriate. As it is, you are displaying an awful lot of internet courage assuming that there is not someone out there with the ability to do whatever you think I said.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Eye95, I agree that it is a right and to license it would change it to a privledge. I never said that my suggestion was a perfect one. All I was trying to convey is this:
    As it stands now even though we do have the right to OC, some of us because of ignorance or misenterpretation of the current laws are being harrased or at least having our right infringed upon by others. We as a group would surely like to see the legislation passed that clearly defines our right to OC so this would stop. However it seems unlikley that will happen any time soon. More often than not to get something done requires lobbying. ( which means paying the right person in most cases).
    Ok , the suggestion I proposed would provide a means to that end.
    I also agree that we should not have to "register our rights".
    But there are people in this world that should not be allowed to carry open or concealed. What I mean is those who are mentally disturbed and convicted felons. Sure we all have the right but we must have some sense of responsibility or accountability as we exercise that right.

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    Alwaysdoubletap wrote:
    Aside from the fact that OC is apparently legal here in AL,
    the majority of us also pay for a CC permit. I have a suggestion.
    Why not give the state of AL the task of issuing a CC/OC permit.
    They could perfom the background check and issue the permit
    just as the sherrifs offices do. Let's say $30 per year, $15 to the state,
    $15 to your county of residence. This way both entities
    collect revenue and we as citizens get what we want. I may be wrong
    but it just seemed to me that it would be a win win scenario.

    Seems like a good idea, especially if it would standardize whatever restrictions are in place for carrying a gun. For example, it doesn't make any sense to do a backround check for a CCer and not do one for a OCer. Makes no sense, say, to prohibit someone who has a domestic violence misdemeaner from CCing legally--but allowing someone with the same DV rap to OC legally. Similarly, it makes little sense to prohibit CC in a state to those 21 and over, but to allow people under 21 to OC. Should be the same age restriction for CC as for OC. Pick an age: 18, 19, 20, 21, whichever age a state decides is right for its residents.

    If the background check and restrictions decided upon by a given state'slawsare under the reasonable regulation rubric (and therefore constitutional)then it would be best to make the restrictions the same for both CC and OC.

    That's where we are headed anyway.


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    Wow. Two people, neither of whom list Alabama as their location in their profile, come into the Alabama forum of the Open Carry advocacy site, and call for Alabama to restrict the right to Open Carry!

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    eye95 wrote:
    Wow. Two people, neither of whom list Alabama as their location in their profile, come into the Alabama forum of the Open Carry advocacy site, and call for Alabama to restrict the right to Open Carry!
    Huh? Is there some kind of, uhm, restriction, against posting in a thread in the Alabama subforum, E95?



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    As you can see Eye95 I am from AL. And I am not advocating restricting open carry. Go back and read what I have said.

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    Hank T,
    Thank you for actually reading my post and being open minded enough to look at the big picture. So far you seem to be the only respondant to do so.

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    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Wow. Two people, neither of whom list Alabama as their location in their profile, come into the Alabama forum of the Open Carry advocacy site, and call for Alabama to restrict the right to Open Carry!
    Huh? Is there some kind of, uhm, restriction, against posting in a thread in the Alabama subforum, E95?

    Nope, hNt. Did I say there was? Just making an observation. Seems like it struck a nerve.

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    NOW we can see that you are in Alabama.

    You are suggesting that Alabama issue a permit to OC. That action, in and of itself, gives the State the authority to determine who gets the permit and who does not. That's not the way RIGHTS work.

    I did read what you wrote. I just think its silly and dangerous.

    Don't put too much stock in the approval you did receive!

  20. #20
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    Alwaysdoubletap wrote:
    Hank T,
    Thank you for actually reading my post and being open minded enough to look at the big picture. So far you seem to be the only respondant to do so.
    Somebody has to take an adult approach to the reality of regulation of carry behavior, ADT. That's what you did, too.

    Most of the ideologically-driven seem to think that if they oppose ANY idea about ANY regulation that they're doing good.

    Those folks are fighting the last war--where it made sense to oppose ALL attempts at regulation--since the object by the antis was to ban guns.

    The next (actually, current) war is one of negotiating the new regulations (those that are constitutional) that will come to the CC and OC communities--not to ban guns, but to restrict certain behaviors while carrying a gun that are anti-social. Another example is drinking while carrying. Astonishingly, most states don't have a law against carry a gun while being, say, at .15 BAC. Yet ALL states have specific DUI laws/enforcement structures--because it benefits their populations. The new wave of gun carry regulation (that which is constitutional) will eventually produce CUI (carrying under the influence) laws that will parallel the DUI laws/enforcement structures.

    I have no problem with that kind of stuff if it's done right. As long as states and the antis stay away from their previously held goal of banning guns, as long as states and antis respect the 2nd Amendment, they will be able to introduce plenty of new (reasonable) laws for gun carriers.

    We'd better get used to the idea and be part of the process--rather than fighting the last war.

    We won the last war, by the way. The antis lost. Why is that so hard for some to understand? It's not some complicated concept like Shrodinger's Cat or something...

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    +1 to ignoring the approval you did receive...

    Especially as we now see a bit of ignorance rear its ugly head in Hank's post. That war did not end for the "anti's". They are still fighting the same war. They did not drop their "previously held goal".... banning guns is still the goal. Many have found that they meet less resistance if they don't come out and say it on tv. But read their opinion pieces, read their stances on their own websites, just LISTEN to what they say!

    No, those who want to take our guns away from us completely have not reduced their efforts. They have only begun a different tack. Obviously the subtlety is working on some.

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    Ok Eye95 one more time just for you. I'm not saying issue a permit to OC. Let's go slow.
    1. In order to purchase a handgun legally in AL from a licencensed dealer you must pass a Background check.
    2. To legally carry a handgun concealed in AL you must purchase a pistol permit and pass a background check.
    3.A convicted felon can not do either of these things.
    4.Reguardless of rights anyone who is mentally disturbed or is a convicted felon should not carry openly or concealed nor should they be allowed to obtain a hangun or any other firearm.

    If the state of Alabama issued a permit that allowed law abiding legal firearm owners who are not mentally disturbed to carry those firearms openly or concealed whichever they choose , how is that silly or dangerous. All it would mean is that the bearer of that permit has been deemed a person who under already exsisting laws and regulations who can own and carry a handgun concealed or openly.

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    Alwaysdoubletap wrote:
    Ok Eye95 one more time just for you. I'm not saying issue a permit to OC. Let's go slow.
    1. In order to purchase a handgun legally in AL from a licencensed dealer you must pass a Background check.
    2. To legally carry a handgun concealed in AL you must purchase a pistol permit and pass a background check.
    3.A convicted felon can not do either of these things.
    4.Reguardless of rights anyone who is mentally disturbed or is a convicted felon should not carry openly or concealed nor should they be allowed to obtain a hangun or any other firearm.

    If the state of Alabama issued a permit that allowed law abiding legal firearm owners who are not mentally disturbed to carry those firearms openly or concealed whichever they choose , how is that silly or dangerous. All it would mean is that the bearer of that permit has been deemed a person who under already exsisting laws and regulations who can own and carry a handgun concealed or openly.
    I hope this isn't becoming a heated debate, because I don't want this to be impolite, but I'd have to agree with eye95. This line of reasoning is dangerous because when has the government ever gotten a small bit of power and then left it at that? No, government by its very nature is constantly grabbing at more power.

    As it stands right now, Alabama case law has stated that the legislature cannot regulate OC in any way because it already regulates CC. So to regulate both would be in violation of Alabama's constitution. To create a law/permit process for the "right" to OC would 1. be unconstitutional, and 2. actually bring us backwards. From there you know that the gun ban crowd would only be constantly thinking of new restrictions to add to this permit. And more people to exclude from getting a permit. You know what, how bout anybody on that Homeland Security memo's list... you know, people who voted for Ron Paul, or are against abortion, those people shouldn't be able to get carry permits for sure. And on and on we would go. There is never just one step down that road, it is only the first step.

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    dixieborn wrote:
    I hope this isn't becoming a heated debate, because I don't want this to be impolite, but I'd have to agree with eye95. This line of reasoning is dangerous because when has the government ever gotten a small bit of power and then left it at that? No, government by its very nature is constantly grabbing at more power.

    As it stands right now, Alabama case law has stated that the legislature cannot regulate OC in any way because it already regulates CC. So to regulate both would be in violation of Alabama's constitution. To create a law/permit process for the "right" to OC would 1. be unconstitutional, and 2. actually bring us backwards. From there you know that the gun ban crowd would only be constantly thinking of new restrictions to add to this permit. And more people to exclude from getting a permit. You know what, how bout anybody on that Homeland Security memo's list... you know, people who voted for Ron Paul, or are against abortion, those people shouldn't be able to get carry permits for sure. And on and on we would go. There is never just one step down that road, it is only the first step.
    Who, exactly,is the "gun ban crowd" in Alabama, DB?

    And can you provide a reference to their desire to "ban" guns in Alabama?

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    Hank please, don't get petty with me. If you refer back to page 1 of this topic, you might recall that you brought up the "gun ban crowd" in general when referencing the "antis". You seemed to be speaking in general terms (i.e. national); regardless of whether I misinterpreted your intent, I was speaking in general terms. No, I do not have references for this in Alabama as I was not restricting my point to Alabama. If you want a reference, please see the brady bunch.

    Now please stop polluting a perfectly good discussion, and I will return to my long acquired skill of ignoring you.

    Doubletap... please don't take this as a sign that I am typically impolite. It's just Hank has a bit of a reputation around here... read enough of his posts and you'll see.

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