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Thread: question about signs for no OC

  1. #1
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    i know that for CC the sign on the door has to be atleast 11x14 with atleast one inch wording or its not a legal sign. and that you still can OC if it only says concealed guns are not allowed. but bannging all guns or OC does it have to be that same size as CC for it to be a ligitimate sign or does that not have a rulling on how big the sign and wording have to be?

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    I'm sure I'll be corrected, but the sign is just a suggestion, right?

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    Regular Member Broondog's Avatar
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    goalseter88 wrote:
    i know that for CC the sign on the door has to be atleast 11x14 with atleast one inch wording or its not a legal sign. and that you still can OC if it only says concealed guns are not allowed. but bannging all guns or OC does it have to be that same size as CC for it to be a ligitimate sign or does that not have a rulling on how big the sign and wording have to be?
    ya know, that's a really good question. i honestly never thought about it.

    i also never even thought about OC'ing in a place that had a NO CC sign. i suppose that taken literally the sign only prohibits one and not the other.

    i did a quick search and the only thing i found was a PDF file made by St, Louis volunteer attorneys (or some such group) that said to the effect that as long as the sign was of legal size and format, it could say anything one wanted it to.

    i have personally only come across the 'standard' sign that we all see around at various places. now that my interest is piqued i may actually read the signs or do a bit more intensive research on the subject.

    then again, someone might pop in here with more of an answer before i do.


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    i personally still CC in the places with the no CCW's signs....my mentality is...if it's concealed...no one is supposed to know you have it?

    but being as this is the OC forum...i OC whenever i'm in an area that allows it....more times than often i have to CC due to living stl city.

  5. #5
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    The sign is just a suggestion until you are asked to leave. Regardless of the legality of the sign. Is this correct?

  6. #6
    Regular Member Broondog's Avatar
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    Bug Eater wrote:
    The sign is just a suggestion until you are asked to leave. Regardless of the legality of the sign. Is this correct?
    nope. it's against the law but not a criminal offense.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

    571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

    (15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;

    2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry endorsement for a period of three years. Upon conviction of charges arising from a citation issued pursuant to this subsection, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue. The sheriff shall suspend or revoke the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue shall issue a notice of such suspension or revocation of the concealed carry endorsement and take action to remove the concealed carry endorsement from the individual's driving record. The director of revenue shall notify the licensee that he or she must apply for a new license pursuant to chapter 302, RSMo, which does not contain such endorsement. A concealed carry endorsement suspension pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall be reinstated at the time of the renewal of his or her driver's license. The notice issued by the department of revenue shall be mailed to the last known address shown on the individual's driving record. The notice is deemed received three days after mailing.


    I'm the one who's gotta die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way I want to.
    Jimi Hendrix

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    Broondog wrote:
    Bug Eater wrote:
    The sign is just a suggestion until you are asked to leave. Regardless of the legality of the sign. Is this correct?
    nope. it's against the law but not a criminal offense.
    That's why I was saying it's a suggestion - because it's not a criminal offense. But you are right, there is a difference.

    Now I have some more reading to do. I appreciate the link too!

  8. #8
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    Broondog,

    what confuses me is something you pointed out. If its unlawful but not criminal, than that may just past the test for trespassing by itself as written in MoRS 569-140

    569.140. 1. A person commits the crime of trespass in the first degree if he knowingly enters unlawfully or knowingly remains unlawfully in a building or inhabitable structure or upon real property

    If carrying the gun past a legal sign is defined as being unlawful, than does that make your presence unlawful as well such that you could now be found in violation of this statute in relation to trespass though the carrying of the gun past tht sign is not, in itself, a criminal offense?

    569.140.2. A person does not commit the crime of trespass in the first degree by entering or remaining upon real property unless the real property is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or as to which notice against trespass is given by:
    (1) Actual communication to the actor; or
    (2) Posting in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

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