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Thread: Sign the Petition

  1. #1
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  2. #2
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    However, instead of taking action to help, the state has come under attack by people who are misrepresenting Arizona’s laws and trying to hurt our efforts to support the rule of law.
    You mean the law that says that I must prove my citizenship to any LEO if there is suspicion that I'm in the country illegally? I'm a white guy, but I get my fair share of sun, have very dark, almost black hair and dark brown eyes, it wouldn't be a stretch for someone to conclude that I'm of Latin American decent. So what constitutes reasonable suspicion?

    We all agree that constitutional rights do not apply to those in this country illegally, but what about those who are citizens. All of a sudden my constitutional rights go out the window just because some LEO can say "but your honor, he looked Mexican."

    Secure the border! but do it without creating laws that grants agents of the state the right to demand to see "Papers, please!" You do it with men on the line, planes in the air and an ear to the ground. This country was founded on the principal that the ends don't necessarily justify the means. Arizona's new immigration law is a step backwards 234 years.
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    However, instead of taking action to help, the state has come under attack by people who are misrepresenting Arizona’s laws and trying to hurt our efforts to support the rule of law.
    You mean the law that says that I must prove my citizenship to any LEO if there is suspicion that I'm in the country illegally? I'm a white guy, but I get my fair share of sun, have very dark, almost black hair and dark brown eyes, it wouldn't be a stretch for someone to conclude that I'm of Latin American decent. So what constitutes reasonable suspicion?

    We all agree that constitutional rights do not apply to those in this country illegally, but what about those who are citizens. All of a sudden my constitutional rights go out the window just because some LEO can say "but your honor, he looked Mexican."

    Secure the border! but do it without creating laws that grants agents of the state the right to demand to see "Papers, please!" You do it with men on the line, planes in the air and an ear to the ground. This country was founded on the principal that the ends don't necessarily justify the means. Arizona's new immigration law is a step backwards 234 years.
    Until now I was happy just reading the messages, but lie such as this one drove me to finally register.

    You have no clue about what the AZ law is, and your post proves it. You are telling lies with the way you are stating the law works. Before posting BS about how the AZ law works, perhaps you should read the law itself. However, if you are happy remaining ignorant of the law and just saying crap you have no clue about, then so be it.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    I think you are posting in the wrong states forum. From what I can tell there is more opposition to your states new law among Arizona citizens than anywhere else.

    By the way, the "liar, Liar pants on fire" argument lost credibility in the 3rd grade. Go back to being a troll.
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    Shows how little you actually followed the link then before posting. Besides, you posted about AZ and I replied to it. I'm sorry if you can't stand the fact that you are indeed a liar, but then all you have to do to fix it is educate yourself before posting false claims. So as far as trolling, the person who intentionally posts wrong information is the one trolling and that means you need to look at yourself instead of trying to give me the title that you have earned in this short thread. Again, educate yourself instead of intentionally posting false information or don't cry if called out on it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
    21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
    22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
    23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
    24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
    25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
    26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
    Papers, please! It says nothing about what constitutes reasonable suspicion. And before you point at the laws regarding racial profiling, lets get real for a second, Racial profiling is a fact of life. It goes on every day. Be it when a LEO sees a pimped out caddy with dinted windows riding on a shiny set of 22's with e the base cranked up, to a store clerk who sees me, an unassuming, well dressed white guy with a firearm securely in my holster. RACIAL PROFILING CAN NOT BE STOPPED JUST BECAUSE YOU TELL PEOPLE NOT TO DO IT!

    37 E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON
    38 IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED
    39 ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.
    LEO: But Your Honor, he looks like he could be Mexican. If he where not a citizen I don't have to grant him constitutional rights.

    DEFENSE ATTY: Objection, Your Honor my client IS a united states citizen protected by the fourth and fifth amendment, He is under no obligation to cooperate with an agent of the state conducting an investigation.

    You see what I'm getting at here?
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    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    This of course, has nothing to do with Open Carry in Nevada. You may have chosen the wrong forum.

    Though you may find people in the OC community who support this, you will also find a number of people who are against any law requireing an individual to ID to the state for any reason.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    Read HB2162 and see how far off your stuff is. There was a change to 1070 to help clarify the law. What it does is make the stuff you've been posting nothing more than BS and shows that you have not been kept up to date on the law, which is why I suggested you educate yourself on it before showing that you don't have factual knowledge on the subject.

    You can try to say that racial profiling will happen anyway, but you already admit it does in so many other things. Now why aren't you out there posting about all those also?

    You also need to explain how mirroring a federal law is now somehow unconstitutional.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    There are a number of federal laws that are unconstitutional, the federal gun free school zone for one. So, as you've been told, this is a forum for us to discuss Open Carry in the state of Nevada, take your argument to a more suitable audience. You can even tell all your friends, both of them, that you won an argument online.

    I'm threw arguing with you, as I really don't give a @#$% what asinine laws your state passes until they end up in my state.

    Arguing online is like competing in the special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded!
    I suggest you go volunteer to patrol your states southern border if you really want to make an impact on illegal immigration. Until then GTFO off our forum.
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    There are a number of federal laws that are unconstitutional, the federal gun free school zone for one. So, as you've been told, this is a forum for us to discuss Open Carry in the state of Nevada, take your argument to a more suitable audience. You can even tell all your friends, both of them, that you won an argument online.

    I'm threw arguing with you, as I really don't give a @#$% what asinine laws your state passes until they end up in my state.

    Arguing online is like competing in the special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded!
    I suggest you go volunteer to patrol your states southern border if you really want to make an impact on illegal immigration. Until then GTFO off our forum.
    You really need to educate yourself before spouting off. You don't have a clue what you're talking about in this matter. Have you read the law, or are you just repeating what you heard on tv?

    Also, your remark about the Special Olympics, shows just who is the one who has problems with mental and intellectual deficiencies. Get a life, and maybe you should get off of our forum until you learn how to conduct yourself. What a loser, do you always try to show how superior you are by making fun of disabled kids? Oh Yeah, you're cool.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    HOUSE BILL 2162
    B. For any lawful contact STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF ANY OTHER LAW OR ORDINANCE OF A COUNTY, CITY OR TOWN OR THIS STATE where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who AND is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. Any person who is arrested shall have the person's immigration status determined before the person is released. The person's immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c). A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
    1. A valid Arizona driver license.
    2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
    3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
    4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.
    This sure makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Even if I haven't committed a crime a LEO can detain me indefinitely until I prove that I'm a citizen? Sorry but even your amended law is made of pure fail. You can not violate one god given right of a US citizen until they forfeit another god given right.

    Both the original draft or the amended version are clearly in violation of section 1 of the fourteenth amendment. This law makes me want to excersize me second amendment right to do this;

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
    however I have to think about this first;

    Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
    Clearly the state that has continued to re-ellect the same idiot to the senate relentlessly since 1986 is "disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable," rather than "to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

    do you always try to show how superior you are by making fun of disabled kids?
    You're right, it's not fair to elevate Mr. Mohawk to their level.

    Supporters of this Arizona Law may not be tools of the media, but clearly they are tools of a special interest. I'm no one's tool, least of all yours!
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    HOUSE BILL 2162
    B. For any lawful contact STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF ANY OTHER LAW OR ORDINANCE OF A COUNTY, CITY OR TOWN OR THIS STATE where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who AND is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. Any person who is arrested shall have the person's immigration status determined before the person is released. The person's immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c). A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
    1. A valid Arizona driver license.
    2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
    3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
    4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.
    This sure makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Even if I haven't committed a crime a LEO can detain me indefinitely until I prove that I'm a citizen? Sorry but even your amended law is made of pure fail. You can not violate one god given right of a US citizen until they forfeit another god given right.

    Both the original draft or the amended version are clearly in violation of section 1 of the fourteenth amendment. This law makes me want to excersize me second amendment right to do this;

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
    however I have to think about this first;

    Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
    Clearly the state that has continued to re-ellect the same idiot to the senate relentlessly since 1986 is "disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable," rather than "to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

    do you always try to show how superior you are by making fun of disabled kids?
    You're right, it's not fair to elevate Mr. Mohawk to their level.

    Supporters of this Arizona Law may not be tools of the media, but clearly they are tools of a special interest. I'm no one's tool, least of all yours!
    where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who AND is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

    A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
    1. A valid Arizona driver license.
    2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
    3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
    4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

    These are the requirements of Arizona's law which you, yourself posted.

    Federal law requires immigrants to carry their green card with them. The Arizona law requires nothing more than Federal law.

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...g2.html?cat=17

    Under the "Now that you are a Permanent Resident" heading on the USCIS web site, it states: "The Permanent Resident Card, Form I-551, is issued to all Permanent Residents as evidence of alien registration and their Permanent status in the US. The card must be in your possession at all times."

    No one has yet shown me where this law is unconstitutional, including you. If you have a better solution, present it.
    I'm no one's tool, least of all yours!
    Maybe not, but after your "retarded" statement, you have shown yourself to be a tool, none the less.






  13. #13
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    I'm a US citizen. I don't have a green card nor should I have to present any form of identification. Now officer Strong Arm detains me for what ever reason, and demands to see my papers. He is now not allowed to make a judgement call because he's not allowed to use my racial profile to assume that a conservatively dressed white male, approximately 30 years old probably isn't in the country illegally. According to this law he is required to demand something of me that I'm constitutionally within my rights to refuse to present. Now because I decided to just grab $10 of my night stand and leave my wallet behind while I walk to the corner store, I'm jammed up by a ridiculous law. According to this law they can refuse me due process until I prove that I'm entitled to it. Not to mention the fact that I'm not going to cough up an ID card unless the law required it, and in this state, the one who's forum you are posting your garbage propaganda, I don't have to carry an ID card with me at all times.

    If you have a better solution, present it.
    The fact is the border could be secured, and easily. But what the powers that be don't want you to know is that the border is not secure because there are interests who stand to loose a lot of money and position both domestically and internationally should the flow of illegal immigrants and especially the flow of drugs across the border where to be quelled.

    Do you honestly think that the drug wars in Juarez and other major crossing points are not being sustained either actively or passively by agencies of our own government? We need that war so that mexico can remain indebted to us. Ever heard of the North American Union? Getting Mexico into so much debt owed to us is simply a means to that end. Immigration is no different. There are industries right here in our own country who have associated themselves with one another to form special interest groups that lobby to keep immigration law impotent so that there remains a ready supply of cheep labor. Do you know what it would cost you for vegetables alone at the supermarket if american citizens where the ones working in the fields to harvest them? It would be easily double perhaps triple the cost.

    If you want to secure the border, gather all the unemployed and find those who have favorable backgrounds suitable for border patrol, give them an M-4 with a combat load, Night vision, and a radio and a Camel-Bak. Tell them to stand 5 meters apart about 200 meters north of the US border. Give them instructions to shoot on sight anyone attempting to cross. Put the word out on the Mexican streets that crossing the US border illegally will be fatal.

    Done, problem solved, lets go home.
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    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    If you want to secure the border, gather all the unemployed and find those who have favorable backgrounds suitable for border patrol, give them an M-4 with a combat load, Night vision, and a radio and a Camel-Bak. Tell them to stand 5 meters apart about 200 meters north of the US border. Give them instructions to shoot on sight anyone attempting to cross. Put the word out on the Mexican streets that crossing the US border illegally will be fatal.

    Done, problem solved, lets go home.
    That doesn't sound comforting to me, I'm against this bill as you are, but I don't feel that shooting unarmed people would a good solution to... well.... anything.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    flagellum wrote:
    I don't feel that shooting unarmed people would a good solution to... well.... anything.
    I agree with you, it's not a good solution, but it's an absolute one. Personally I think they should be taken into custody and put in labor camps doing the work that US citizens don't want to do until the cost of their capture and prosecution where recovered and then returned to mexico. I'm not talking about taking them to Tijuana either I'm talking about taking them to Mexico's southern most border and dropping them from a c130 with a parachute, a zip cord and an MRE.

    We can't use my plan either, the thirteenth amendment applies. But then we've just opened up another can of worms now haven't we. If we cant hold them bound to forced labor based on the constitution, then that would mean that the constitution applies in full not in part to illegal aliens as well.

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  16. #16
    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    I'm not talking about taking them to Tijuana either I'm talking about taking them to Mexico's southern most border and dropping them from a c130 with a parachute, a zip cord and an MRE.
    That actually sounds like something I would pay money to do. :P
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    There are a number of federal laws that are unconstitutional, the federal gun free school zone for one. So, as you've been told, this is a forum for us to discuss Open Carry in the state of Nevada, take your argument to a more suitable audience. You can even tell all your friends, both of them, that you won an argument online.

    I'm threw arguing with you, as I really don't give a @#$% what asinine laws your state passes until they end up in my state.

    Arguing online is like competing in the special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded!
    I suggest you go volunteer to patrol your states southern border if you really want to make an impact on illegal immigration. Until then GTFO off our forum.
    You bring up AZ and then get pissy because you get a reply. Too bad. I can see that you feel so superior to regular humans that you now have the right to tell them where they can and can't be. So your lack of intelligence can't tell you that I wasn't the one to bring up AZ here, too bad. You invited a response, so get pissed at yourself. I'm wondering why you brought up AZ yourself, since it is a forum for Nevada. But stupidity knows no boundaries, as you show.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    wait, what? I'm not the one who started a topic trying to get support for a bad Arizona law in the state of Nevada.

    Let me sum it up for you; If you want to come to a Nevada open carry gun rights forum to get support for a bad Arizona law that relates to Immigration, and institutes gestapo policies on American citizens, policies that are counter to what many of us in this forum hold very dear, you are barking up the wrong tree.

    Politely go eff yourself.
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  19. #19
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    I have seen this discussion in many forums and as with anything the "My opinion is right" rules applies (everyone thinks their opinion is golden...) THIS is clearly not the proper forum for this discussion (and I for one hope it gets locked or at least moved because of that.)

    Nevada Carrier, not to piss you off but I agree the comment about the Special Olympics was in extremely bad taste and showed that if you are not a tool, you indeed obtain the ability to act (post) as if you are one... Sorry bro but, the truth is the truth on that one What good does it do anyone to use disabled people's special needs in a manner to attempt to insult someone else?


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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    Do you know what it would cost you for vegetables alone at the supermarket if american citizens where the ones working in the fields to harvest them?
    According to studies, $8 a year for an average family.



  21. #21
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    wait, what? I'm not the one who started a topic trying to get support for a bad Arizona law in the state of Nevada.

    Let me sum it up for you; If you want to come to a Nevada open carry gun rights forum to get support for a bad Arizona law that relates to Immigration, and institutes gestapo policies on American citizens, policies that are counter to what many of us in this forum hold very dear, you are barking up the wrong tree.

    Politely go eff yourself.
    And you're saying I'm the one who started the thread? Go back to the beginning and see who posted. While you're there, see who (between you and me) named AZ first. And childish Nazi comparisons are so 1st grade. Show again how little you actually know and that you just wish to run your mouth. After all, you've used Gestapo tactics in this thread yourself.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    And childish Nazi comparisons are so 1st grade.
    If the shoe fits...
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  23. #23
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    I'm glad that you agree your actions fit the comparison to Nazi then. And I'm also glad to see how you handle the fact that you've been accusing me of starting this discussion when I was in fact the third person to post on it.

    Perhaps one day you'll grow up and actually research something before saying something about a law you know nothing about other than what is spoon fed to you. But then again, you can't even realize who started the thread, so you becoming educated is but a dream.

  24. #24
    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    This doesn't apply to anyone in perticular, but it apples to this thread in general.
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
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  25. #25
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    "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
    Second Amendment to the United States Constitution

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