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Thread: You're door crashes down and you hear "POLICE!"

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    You see them in T-shirts that says "POLICE" and they have a badge, handcuffs, etc. What would you do?

    If you don't put your gun down, you will be shot. But, if you put your gun down, you could also be shot.

    Some criminals have realized that home owners may have guns. So, they bash your door down, in the middle of the night, yelling loudly: "POLICE!". You see them and they have shirts on that has "police" in big letters. They also have badges, handcuffs etc.

    How would you decide if it was the real police or not?

    Everything is available on the net to copy exactly even local LEO's uniform, belt, handcuffs, shoes, etc. But the real police might be only
    wearing a police T-shirt. If it is a narcotic raid, some may even be wearing masks.

    LEO's have gone to the wrong house. True story: Based on a drug tip
    and other information, a no knock warrent was issued. The police
    bashed the door down, in the middle of the night. The elderly woman, who lived alone, was in a wheelchair. She heard her door being bashed in and there was a loud explosion and some smoke - a flash-bang.

    They rush into her bedroom and she fires one shot, which missed. But
    the return volley killed her. There were no drugs and they were at the wrong address. The officers swore they loudly yelled "police!". Whether they did or not, only the woman knows.

    I know LEOs well enough that if they bash your door down and see you
    with a gun pointed at them, as they rush into your bedroom, they are not going to let you continue holding that weapon while you ask for I.D., in fact, they will probably shoot when they see your gun.

    Once again, your door crashes down and you hear shouting saying: "police.". What would you do?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I'm afraid there is only one solution to this quandary:

    The complete abolition of no-knock raids, and "dynamic entry" for all but the incredibly rare terrorist/hostage scenario.

    As far as I am concerned, a warrant isn't enough. Judges rubber-stamp them, and allow this problem to grow unabated.

    I've argued before that a nothing less than a referendum is an appropriate prerequisite for SWAT use, at this juncture.

    I like what I said previously:

    marshaul wrote:
    Personally, I don't know how I'd react if I were no-knock raided.

    I'd hope to make the right decision, but how can you when police no longer have a standard by which we may unambiguously differentiate them from criminal invaders? When police no longer knock, and instead bust in as formerly only a criminal would, how may we know the difference?

    This is the whole point of warrants and due process (well, one of them anyway), and the police throw it out the door at their own peril.

    And then, rather than accept the peril they've created, they insist that we have no right to defend ourselves against a criminal invader who later turns out to be a cop, but they have the right to murder us in our justified confusion and righteous but unwise attempts at self-defense.

    Clearly, no-knock raids must cease. If there isn't a gun to a hostage's head, I want to see gentle knocks on doors by guys armed with a warrant, not AR-15s.

    The police are intentionally placing their safety at odds with our rights. If their procedures or safety don't yield, then it's going to be our rights.

    I, for one, am not willing to support that. The police need to be the ones to "sacrifice" to defend the American edifice this time. I put "sacrifice" in quotes because the authority they'd be relinquishing was already usurped against moral right, ethical propriety, and historical legal originalism.

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    how can you when police no longer have a standard by which we may unambiguously differentiate them from criminal invaders? When police no longer knock, and instead bust in as formerly only a criminal would, how may we know the difference?


    This is a criminal invasion, and by def. they are tyrants. Marshual you are a smart cookie my Friend. I think this is a matter of great importance (especially with the ("unpatriot act") and should be stressed to our legislature.(though i doubt they act)


    I think we should honor the bravery of this man who defended his home from tyrants.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFnmZKl5WEA

    the followup:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m2JZnXfMtw

    I would expect this from Germany under the Nazis, but the US? it's absurd.


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    This one's a commercial but funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY82s...eature=related

    Lot's of video covering real occurances out there. This stuff happens everyday.

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    Regular Member Ed69's Avatar
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    steveman01 wrote:
    how can you when police no longer have a standard by which we may unambiguously differentiate them from criminal invaders? When police no longer knock, and instead bust in as formerly only a criminal would, how may we know the difference?


    This is a criminal invasion, and by def. they are tyrants. Marshual you are a smart cookie my Friend. I think this is a matter of great importance (especially with the ("unpatriot act") and should be stressed to our legislature.(though i doubt they act)


    I think we should honor the bravery of this man who defended his home from tyrants.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFnmZKl5WEA

    the followup:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m2JZnXfMtw

    I would expect this from Germany under the Nazis, but the US? it's absurd.
    I practice all the time fore head shots.Maybe two dead leo's would have made them rethink the no knock ********?Anybody forcing their way in my home will be shot,questions are for later.

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    The police need these kinds of warrants. The fact that they have misused no-knock warrants, and have been allowed to do so by the courts, simply means that they need to be held accountable when they do.

    I don't know of the scenario you propose ever happening. Even if it has occurred as an isolated instance, I won't change how I act based on such a rare occurrence. If it does become commonplace enough where I might have to think about such a scenario, then the police and the courts will be forced to rethink what they do.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    First, they were shooting the pet dogs of a Mayor in a yuppie MD suburb in a botches raid:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26079096/


    Well, not they are setting fire to 7-year-old girls while they sleep, and then shooting them dead in Detroit when they smashed into the wrong apartment...

    http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/17/de...killed-in-swat

    http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...-year-old-girl


    STOP NO-KNOCK WARRANTS!!!
    How many more have to die before the madness stops?!?


    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    SFCRetired wrote:
    Both the "no-knock" warrants and the militarization of police needs to stop. These are supposed to be law enforcement officers, not some glorified storm troopers.
    They're supposed to be peace officers and neighbors. If they're masked then they're thugs even if government sponsored.

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    eye95 wrote:
    The police need these kinds of warrants. The fact that they have misused no-knock warrants, and have been allowed to do so by the courts, simply means that they need to be held accountable when they do.
    Exactly, why do they "need these kinds of warrants," E95?

    Can you articulate that? Why are they needed?




    eye95 wrote:
    I don't know of the scenario you propose ever happening. Even if it has occurred as an isolated instance, I won't change how I act based on such a rare occurrence. If it does become commonplace enough where I might have to think about such a scenario....
    So, it's never happened, eh?

    And if it happened, then hasn't happened to often, eh?

    And if, after it hasn't happened, and hasn't happened too often, then happens too often---then you'll deign to consider that you"might have to think about" it?????

    Great, E95. And how many innocent victims (women, children included) will be traumatized, shot and killed while you tacitly and heartilyaccept JBT mayhem?

    This is, last time I looked, the United States of America. With a Constitution.

    Your position seems like one of an apologist for no-knock atrocities that have been visited upon many citizens, E95. Surely you have read about these events?




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    hNt: If you address what I said in a civil tone (properly representing what I said), I will be happy to answer your questions.

    Until you show me that courtesy, I choose not to deal with you.

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    eye95 wrote:
    hNt: If you address what I said in a civil tone (properly representing what I said), I will be happy to answer your questions.

    Until you show me that courtesy, I choose not to deal with you.
    E95, my post is fine. The tone is fine. The questions, all fine. You are simply being asked to explain how you support your position that no-knock raids are essential.

    Hit a nerve?

    If you cannot substantiate your positions and your ideas, well, I guess....that you cannot.

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    I believe the OP is (in a round about way) asking if you should trust that the people yelling "POLICE" while busting into your door are in fact the police. Home invasions are becoming more common, and these brazen thugs are using the police tactic to confuse potential armed homeowners.You may only have a few minutes to try and tell the difference.

    I live a few blocks from the local "cop shop" in my neighborhood, and the houses in my area are only a few feet apart. I would be surprised that all the commotion would not alert my neighbors. I alsohope they would be smart enough to notice that if there are no police vehicles around that something probably isn't right. Would I becognisant enough at 2 am to pull my pistol out of the safe, slam the magazine home and get a round chambered in the few seconds I wouldhave if someone broke my door open? Probably would, but would I be able to see through the flashlights blaring in my face to determine if they are the police or posers? That I don't think so.

    So the big question is; do I fire or not?
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    hNt: If you address what I said in a civil tone (properly representing what I said), I will be happy to answer your questions.

    Until you show me that courtesy, I choose not to deal with you.
    E95, my post is fine. The tone is fine. The questions, all fine. You are simply being asked to explain how you support your position that no-knock raids are essential.

    Hit a nerve?

    If you cannot substantiate your positions and your ideas, well, I guess....that you cannot.
    hNt: You have made your choice. I will move on. Maybe, someone else could ask a similar question. I would answer any such respectfully asked query.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    I don't know of the scenario you propose ever happening. Even if it has occurred as an isolated instance, I won't change how I act based on such a rare occurrence. If it does become commonplace enough where I might have to think about such a scenario, then the police and the courts will be forced to rethink what they do.
    Either your "Goggle-Fu" is VERY weak, or you are just lazy, or you CHOOSE to be blind to the reality of the current world. Whatever the excuse for your blindness, NONE of them are excusable if you've got an internet connection and enough functioning fingers to type in a simple Goggle search...


    Houston, TX, 20 July 2004:
    http://www.click2houston.com/news/3551503/detail.html

    East Aukland New Zealand, 11 Sept. 2006:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/louisa-cle...ectid=10400725

    New York, NY, 16 July 2007:
    http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Home-inv..._as_NYC_police

    Los Angeles CA, 26 March 2009:
    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...-Invasion.html

    Atlanta GA, 6 Oct. 2009:
    http://www.wsbtv.com/news/21213454/detail.html

    Gwinnett GA, 15 May 2010, and Lawrenceville GA, 23 April 2010:
    http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/hom.../93866544.html

    Memphis TN, 16 May 2010:
    http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news...pose-as-police


    And these are just the ones where they pose as cops. It is much more common for home invaders to pose as utility workers, plumbers, or political pollsters. I must have seen a few dozen stories that fit those MO's, from all over the USA and Canada.

    Showing you the errors in your reality is becoming tedious...

    Wake up, man. It's not rocket science to do a Goggle Search....
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    eye95 wrote:
    I will move on.
    or you CHOOSE to be blind to the reality
    Left hand Henrietta talking to righthand sockpuppet

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Doug, I generally enjoy your posts, but sometimes you are so obtuse that I just don't know what you're trying to say...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Not one of those cases was the scenario described. The scenario regarded folks dressed as police, claiming to be police, and acting like they were exercising a no-knock warrant. Each of the cases you cited have one or more of those elements, but not all.

    That is a significant difference. It affects the decision to fire.

    Anyway, that's all the response that you will get.

    Again, if you'd like to have a conversation with me, I expect to be addressed without personal insults. Are you capable of that?

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    Houston, TX, 20 July 2004:
    http://www.click2houston.com/news/3551503/detail.html

    OK, this one they were only yelling out that they were police. I'll give you that one...


    East Aukland New Zealand, 11 Sept. 2006:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/louisa-cle...ectid=10400725

    Dressed in body armor, shouting out "Police", heavily armed and early in the morning. What else do you need, flashing blue lighs and donuts?


    New York, NY, 16 July 2007:
    http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Home-inv..._as_NYC_police

    NYPD hats and t-shirts, and badges, waving guns, and forced their way into the house. Doesn't get much more like your scenario than this. Maybe they didn't have enough powdered sugar on their bellies to meet your standards...


    Los Angeles CA, 26 March 2009:
    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...-Invasion.html

    Forced entry, guns, and handcuffs. OK, Maybe I can give you that one too, but as there were no surviving witnesses, it's hard to say how the perps were dressed or what they said...


    Atlanta GA, 6 Oct. 2009:
    http://www.wsbtv.com/news/21213454/detail.html

    Claims of police business, waving guns, forced entrance. OK, no badges, and no t-shirts. I'm feeling generous, I'll give you this one too.


    Gwinnett GA, 15 May 2010, and Lawrenceville GA, 23 April 2010:
    http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/hom.../93866544.html

    Black masks, FBI shirts, heavily armed large groups, forced entry. I don't know, dude, sounds pretty spot-on for your scenario...


    Memphis TN, 16 May 2010:
    http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news...pose-as-police

    Claimed to be cops, forced entry, heavily armed, large group, ransacked house. How many more boxes do you require be checked before it fits your scenario, man?...


    4 out of 7 are spot on. The other 3 are not wearing cop-clothes, but do everything else in a cop-like manner. (notice that many of the victims are not highly educated, or recent immigrants--easier to intimidate, and not as familiar with "real" police)

    And like I said, this was just from a quick Goggle search.

    I suppose if you require that the perps appear cop-like in EVERY aspect, from boots to haircuts, you're only going to find that in the movies.

    I'm just saying that to any reasonable person, a bunch of guys dressed in black with masks, and guns kicking in your door shouting "Police" is going to look like a REAL no-knock raid. I don't think most folks are going to have the time or visual acuity to read the lettering on their badges in a situation like this --real cops or not...

    Home invaders posing as cops is much more common than you think. That is what is making these no-knocks so dangerous. The bad guys have put homeowners in a situation that NOBODY is going to know if it's the real cops or some punk thugs.

    Unfortunately. this confusion benefits both the real cops and the criminals, because now homeowners will be less likely to defend themselves immediately when they hear someone knocking down their door--bad guys barge on in and then have the upper hand, and cops barge on in and don't have to worry as much about getting shot by the law-abiding homeowners who's house was raided by mistake...

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    hNt: If you address what I said in a civil tone (properly representing what I said), I will be happy to answer your questions.

    Until you show me that courtesy, I choose not to deal with you.
    E95, my post is fine. The tone is fine. The questions, all fine. You are simply being asked to explain how you support your position that no-knock raids are essential.

    Hit a nerve?

    If you cannot substantiate your positions and your ideas, well, I guess....that you cannot.
    hNt: You have made your choice. I will move on. Maybe, someone else could ask a similar question. I would answer any such respectfully asked query.
    I have no respect for the view that all no-knock raids upon citizens are essential and needed.

    Not one iota of respect.

    I guess I am intolerant.

    I see your demand for "respectful" questions as as a way of avoiding responsibility for your own apologist support for unlawful police actions. We need only "respect" people who show us respect. We need not respect people who do not even stand behind their own ideas.




    eye95 wrote:
    I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

    I guess I am intolerant.

    I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...765216#p765216

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    eye95 wrote:
    I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

    I guess I am intolerant.

    I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.
    Those who post to me respectfully will receive answers that respect them as a person. Of course, I reserve the right not to respect their ideas.

    Unfortunately, this significant difference is lost on some.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

    I guess I am intolerant.

    I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.
    Those who post to me respectfully will receive answers that respect them as a person. Of course, I reserve the right not to respect their ideas.

    Unfortunately, this significant difference is lost on some.
    You also reserve the right to not support your statement and belief that no-knock raids on U.S. citizens are essential, as you posted earlier today.

    Frankly, I don't blame you, E95, for not explaining your position. It would lay bare your true colors.

    You think you can avoid this exposition by instantlyinventing some kind of poltically correct-derived method of how you should be addressed.

    But the exposition cannot be avoided.

    E95, yourideasare revealed:those of apolice apologist.

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    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    hNt: If you address what I said in a civil tone (properly representing what I said), I will be happy to answer your questions.

    Until you show me that courtesy, I choose not to deal with you.
    E95, my post is fine. The tone is fine. The questions, all fine. You are simply being asked to explain how you support your position that no-knock raids are essential.

    Hit a nerve?

    If you cannot substantiate your positions and your ideas, well, I guess....that you cannot.
    hNt: You have made your choice. I will move on. Maybe, someone else could ask a similar question. I would answer any such respectfully asked query.
    I have no respect for the view that all no-knock raids upon citizens are essential and needed.

    Not one iota of respect.

    I guess I am intolerant.

    I see your demand for "respectful" questions as as a way of avoiding responsibility for your own apologist support for unlawful police actions. We need only "respect" people who show us respect. We need not respect people who do not even stand behind their own ideas.




    eye95 wrote:
    I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

    I guess I am intolerant.

    I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...765216#p765216
    PWN3D!

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    i'd also like to add that both cops and criminals take advantage of late night/early morning entry because the homeowner is often disoriented and/or confused when they wake up to doors slamming and loud screaming. I don't care what the cop or the thug is wearing, at 2 AM it will be hard for me tell which way my shorts go on, let alone decide if the invaders are cops or thugs.

    If you do shoot, the cops will likely kill you. Thats just what they are trained to do. If you don't shoot, the thugs will likely kill you, thats just how they think. Thanks to no-knock raids, you are now in a catch-22 when someone kicks your door down at 2am and forces entry into your home.

    I don't know about you guys, but I am always armed at home. And if its 2am and i hear someone kicking my door in, i am ready, willing, and able to shoot the first person i see. If its a cop, then i'm done, i will probably not survive to see the cops get their medal of honor. if that ain't f***ed up, I don't know what is.

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