You're door crashes down and you hear "POLICE!"

eye95 · May 17, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

I guess I am intolerant.

I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.

Those who post to me respectfully will receive answers that respect them as a person. Of course, I reserve the right not to respect their ideas.

Unfortunately, this significant difference is lost on some.

HankT · May 17, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

eye95 wrote:

I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

I guess I am intolerant.

I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.

Click to expand...

Those who post to me respectfully will receive answers that respect them as a person. Of course, I reserve the right not to respect their ideas.

Unfortunately, this significant difference is lost on some.

You also reserve the right to not support your statement and belief that no-knock raids on U.S. citizens are essential, as you posted earlier today.

Frankly, I don't blame you, E95, for not explaining your position. It would lay bare your true colors.

You think you can avoid this exposition by instantlyinventing some kind of poltically correct-derived method of how you should be addressed.

But the exposition cannot be avoided.

E95, yourideasare revealed:those of apolice apologist.

Brass Magnet · May 17, 2010

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"When you or any of your employee'sare speaking to me I shall only be addressed as El Conquistador! ":lol:

bomber · May 17, 2010

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HankT wrote:

eye95 wrote:

HankT wrote:

eye95 wrote:

hNt: If you address what I said in a civil tone (properly representing what I said), I will be happy to answer your questions.

Until you show me that courtesy, I choose not to deal with you.

Click to expand...

E95, my post is fine. The tone is fine. The questions, all fine. You are simply being asked to explain how you support your position that no-knock raids are essential.

Hit a nerve?

If you cannot substantiate your positions and your ideas, well, I guess....that you cannot.

Click to expand...

hNt: You have made your choice. I will move on. Maybe, someone else could ask a similar question. I would answer any such respectfully asked query.

Click to expand...

I have no respect for the view that all no-knock raids upon citizens are essential and needed.

Not one iota of respect.

I guess I am intolerant.

I see your demand for "respectful" questions as as a way of avoiding responsibility for your own apologist support for unlawful police actions. We need only "respect" people who show us respect. We need not respect people who do not even stand behind their own ideas.

eye95 wrote:

I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

I guess I am intolerant.

I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.

Click to expand...

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44284&forum_id=65&jump_to=765216#p765216

PWN3D!

bomber · May 17, 2010

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i'd also like to add that both cops and criminals take advantage of late night/early morning entry because the homeowner is often disoriented and/or confused when they wake up to doors slamming and loud screaming. I don't care what the cop or the thug is wearing, at 2 AM it will be hard for me tell which way my shorts go on, let alone decide if the invaders are cops or thugs.

If you do shoot, the cops will likely kill you. Thats just what they are trained to do. If you don't shoot, the thugs will likely kill you, thats just how they think. Thanks to no-knock raids, you are now in a catch-22 when someone kicks your door down at 2am and forces entry into your home.

I don't know about you guys, but I am always armed at home. And if its 2am and i hear someone kicking my door in, i am ready, willing, and able to shoot the first person i see. If its a cop, then i'm done, i will probably not survive to see the cops get their medal of honor. if that ain't f***ed up, I don't know what is.

Deanimator · May 17, 2010

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bomber wrote:

i'd also like to add that both cops and criminals take advantage of late night/early morning entry because the homeowner is often disoriented and/or confused when they wake up to doors slamming and loud screaming. I don't care what the cop or the thug is wearing, at 2 AM it will be hard for me tell which way my shorts go on, let alone decide if the invaders are cops or thugs.

If you do shoot, the cops will likely kill you. Thats just what they are trained to do. If you don't shoot, the thugs will likely kill you, thats just how they think. Thanks to no-knock raids, you are now in a catch-22 when someone kicks your door down at 2am and forces entry into your home.

I don't know about you guys, but I am always armed at home. And if its 2am and i hear someone kicking my door in, i am ready, willing, and able to shoot the first person i see. If its a cop, then i'm done, i will probably not survive to see the cops get their medal of honor. if that ain't f***ed up, I don't know what is.

I don't use or sell drugs or knowingly associate with people who do.

I've had well documented death threats from neo-Nazis.

Even the dumbest, meth addled sheet head can scream "police!" while kicking in your door.

Given that I don't have the SLIGHTEST reason to expect a legitimate no knock police raid, I have no choice but to assume that anybody apparently executing one is really doing so on a pretext in order gain entrance to murder me.

If through laziness or stupidity, the police somehow choose me as a target, I'm probably going to get killed. I probably won't be the only one.

In all too many instances, police engage in these raids ineptly, frivolously, or maliciously. Having learned that they have raided the wrong place, either by getting the address or the identities wrong, it is all too common for them to display the utmost in contempt and callousness toward the innocent victims.

If I survive such a goat rope, it is my intention to destroy as many careers, finances, lives and families as humanly possible via the civil court system and any other legal means available to me. If I can't take you house and your kids' college fund, I'll destroy your reputation.

If you raid my house by mistake, it's the law of the vendetta, for as long as I live.

bomber · May 17, 2010

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Deanimator wrote:

In all too many instances, police engage in these raids ineptly, frivolously, or maliciously. Having learned that they have raided the wrong place, either by getting the address or the identities wrong, it is all too common for them to display the utmost in contempt and callousness toward the innocent victims.

this is the true evidence of their contempt for the citizens they "serve" and their arrogance

open4years · May 17, 2010

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steveman01 wrote:

how can you when police no longer have a standard by which we may unambiguously differentiate them from criminal invaders? When police no longer knock, and instead bust in as formerly only a criminal would, how may we know the difference?

This is a criminal invasion, and by def. they are tyrants. Marshual you are a smart cookie my Friend. I think this is a matter of great importance (especially with the ("unpatriot act") and should be stressed to our legislature.(though i doubt they act)

I think we should honor the bravery of this man who defended his home from tyrants.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFnmZKl5WEA

the followup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m2JZnXfMtw

I would expect this from Germany under the Nazis, but the US? it's absurd.

Thank you Steve for posting these links to the videos. While watching, I could not believe that the officers were rewarded for not shooting anyone!!!!!!!!

The officers were under fire and they fired back. I can tell you that they were doing there best to hit the shooter!! Now, if they didn't return fire and convinced them that they were police, then I could see them being recognized.

Two officers were hit in their vests. Does anyone here think that the officers were intentionally missing the shooter?? The cheif should have put them on leave and have someone external to the department conduct an investigation.

If the officers were allowed to return to duty, they should have been sent to the firing range for an intensive review of their shooting skills!

This topic has worried me for years as I'm still not sure of what I would do

HankT · May 17, 2010

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Deanimator wrote:

In all too many instances, police engage in these raids ineptly, frivolously, or maliciously. Having learned that they have raided the wrong place, either by getting the address or the identities wrong, it is all too common for them to display the utmost in contempt and callousness toward the innocent victims.

"In all too many instances?" "Ineptly?"

That's different, completely different from what E95 says.

Of course, there just happens to be a new thread that describes a no-knock warrant raid in Detroit yesterday morning. The police, who according to E95 "need these kind of warrants," killed a 7-year old girl.

Just bad luck for her, I guess. Hey, according to E95 it doesn't happen. And if it does happen, well, it doesn't happen too too often.

Read it here:

And they say we're the bad guys with guns?

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44361&forum_id=57&jump_to=765827

tcmech · May 17, 2010

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Back to the original question, my only answer is that better be a kevlar t-shirt, and a damn thick one at that.

Edit, I would also like to add the fact that 100% of the violent home invasions take place in the home.

open4years · May 17, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

The police need these kinds of warrants. The fact that they have misused no-knock warrants, and have been allowed to do so by the courts, simply means that they need to be held accountable when they do.

I don't know of the scenario you propose ever happening. Even if it has occurred as an isolated instance, I won't change how I act based on such a rare occurrence. If it does become commonplace enough where I might have to think about such a scenario, then the police and the courts will be forced to rethink what they do.

If you were referring to the case I mentioned, it did happen. It was years ago but I will never forget it. It made me ask what I would do; I still don't have an answer. If I did return fire, I would like to have a full auto weapon and a ballistic vests. Then, if they turned out to be real LEOs, I'm a dead man. The back up would make certain I died after seeing their buddies dead.

Maybe, with all seriousness, a SAFE room might be the answer. You would have time to call in and find out if they are real LEO's. It might come in handy when BGs attack, too. Maybe a few gun ports!

steveman01 · May 17, 2010

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I'm surprised(but glad)that they did not gun them down(like ruby ridge)after two officers shot. Or gas'em and burn'em(waco). Though they may have if the man was using a rifle instead of a shotgun, cause then the two officers would be dead. And i'm sure that would've changed the story dramatically. The medals were for not retreating under fire!(though they were supposed to) Honoring our leo's for maximum damage...head shaking. I honor the man for standing his ground!

Looks as if a shotgun is no longer an effective home defense gun... I'll be switching to my 30/30!

No wonder folks are scared of their g'ment and scared to OC! I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to carry, for there are risks in both cases. As for me 24/7 Speer GoldDot +P's, in process of switching from stainless beretta m9 to either XD or SR9.

eye95 · May 17, 2010

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open4years wrote:

eye95 wrote:

The police need these kinds of warrants. The fact that they have misused no-knock warrants, and have been allowed to do so by the courts, simply means that they need to be held accountable when they do.

I don't know of the scenario you propose ever happening. Even if it has occurred as an isolated instance, I won't change how I act based on such a rare occurrence. If it does become commonplace enough where I might have to think about such a scenario, then the police and the courts will be forced to rethink what they do.

Click to expand...

If you were referring to the case I mentioned, it did happen. It was years ago but I will never forget it. It made me ask what I would do; I still don't have an answer. If I did return fire, I would like to have a full auto weapon and a ballistic vests. Then, if they turned out to be real LEOs, I'm a dead man. The back up would make certain I died after seeing their buddies dead.

Maybe, with all seriousness, a SAFE room might be the answer. You would have time to call in and find out if they are real LEO's. It might come in handy when BGs attack, too. Maybe a few gun ports!

Based upon what I have seen in this thread, such scenarios are extremely rare. Even the ones that folks have tried to document didn't fully match the scenario originally proposed. Some yell police, but aren't wearing the get-up. None of them mentioned badges. Some knocked, claimed to be police, and were let in.

If criminals, in sufficient numbers, announce, "Police," break down the door, are wearing Police garb, and have badges, you're toast. I am going to plan for that unlikely (and hopeless) eventuality as much as I would for a 747 hitting my house.

On the no-knock warrant that is blamed for this scenario being possible, cops need them for very specific cases, such as well-armed, known felons barricaded in a house. LEOs should have to prove that announcing themselves and allowing time for a response would put them in grave danger from the arsenal within. No-knocks should only be issued if the officers are advised that mistakes will be considered criminal negligence and will result in charges.

The problem is not no-knock warrants. It is the ridiculously low level of crime, low level of threat, and low level of RAS needed before one is granted, all of this combined with some incredible negligence.

eye95 · May 17, 2010

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double-tap

My wireless mouse seems to be clicking twice of late for each single press. Have no fear. It has been replaced with a new wireless keyboard/mouse setup. Just gotta get it out of the box.

Dreamer · May 17, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

Some yell police, but aren't wearing the get-up. None of them mentioned badges.

Monumental Reading Comprehension Fail...

New York, NY, 16 July 2007:
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Home-invaders_pose_as_NYC_police

Monday, July 16, 2007[/b]

In two separate incidents, men posing as members of the New York Police Department (NYPD), have invaded homes in the New York City area. In both cases, they robbed the residents, but in the most recent, they sexually assaulted a woman.

On Saturday, July 14, at 1:09 a.m. EDT (UTC-4), four men knocked on the door of a Yonkers, New York, apartment. The 33-year-old male that lives there opened the door, as the men outside wore NYPD hats and t-shirts, and had badges hanging around their necks.

The men promptly ordered the male victim to the floor. "When this guy pushed me, he had a gun in my face," the victim said. "I could see the other guy. He motioned to the others, come on, let's go, let's go." The intruders shouted "Where are the drugs?" as they ransacked the apartment.

Two of the men entered the bedroom and sexually assaulted the 30-year-old female. The couple has a five-year-old child, who was sleeping in another bedroom. "The more I resisted, the more he began to hit me," the woman said. She said she was sexually assaulted by two of the men while her boyfriend was bound and guarded.

Police said the men then left with a cell phone, a laptop computer, a diamond ring and a gold chain. Police do not believe that they were real officers. As of this afternoon, no arrests have been made.

Huck · May 17, 2010

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When police no longer knock, and instead bust in as formerly only a criminal would, how may we know the difference?

As far as I'm concerned there is no difference! A home invasion, is a home invasion! No matter who's kicking down the door.

With all the instances of the cops hitting the wrong house, all too ofton with innocent people killed or injured,it should be obvious that the cops havenot done a thorough investigation. It's also obvious that the judge who signs the warrents has'nt done his/her job of making sure that the reason for the warrent is valid. What more reasons does anyone need that no-knock raidsdo farmore harm than good?

steveman01 · May 17, 2010

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Dreamer wrote:

Police said the men then left with a cell phone, a laptop computer, a diamond ring and a gold chain. Police do not believe that they were real officers. As of this afternoon, no arrests have been made.

Looks to me like the possibility of them being real leo's is still open...not that it matters.

As far as I'm concerned there is no difference! A home invasion, is a home invasion! No matter who's kicking down the door.

That's what I say...

Ole Man Dan · May 17, 2010

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open4years wrote:

You see them in T-shirts that says "POLICE" and they have a badge, handcuffs, etc. What would you do?

If you don't put your gun down, you will be shot. But, if you put your gun down, you could also be shot.

Some criminals have realized that home owners may have guns. So, they bash your door down, in the middle of the night, yelling loudly: "POLICE!". You see them and they have shirts on that has "police" in big letters. They also have badges, handcuffs etc.

How would you decide if it was the real police or not?

Everything is available on the net to copy exactly even local LEO's uniform, belt, handcuffs, shoes, etc. But the real police might be only
wearing a police T-shirt. If it is a narcotic raid, some may even be wearing masks.

LEO's have gone to the wrong house. True story: Based on a drug tip
and other information, a no knock warrent was issued. The police
bashed the door down, in the middle of the night. The elderly woman, who lived alone, was in a wheelchair. She heard her door being bashed in and there was a loud explosion and some smoke - a flash-bang.

They rush into her bedroom and she fires one shot, which missed. But
the return volley killed her. There were no drugs and they were at the wrong address. The officers swore they loudly yelled "police!". Whether they did or not, only the woman knows.

I know LEOs well enough that if they bash your door down and see you
with a gun pointed at them, as they rush into your bedroom, they are not going to let you continue holding that weapon while you ask for I.D., in fact, they will probably shoot when they see your gun.

Once again, your door crashes down and you hear shouting saying: "police.". What would you do?

*****
Take it from a retired LEO... If it's LEO at your door, you don't want to be holding a gun. The smart move would be to hold your hands in the air and inform them that you have a weapon.
The scenario you described is a 'No Win' for the home owner. I hate to say that: 'If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it may be a duck' OR LEO.
That said there are also a few 'Yard Birds' that have impersonated Officers. NO WIN SITUATION

marshaul · May 17, 2010

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HankT wrote:

eye95 wrote:

HankT wrote:

eye95 wrote:

hNt: If you address what I said in a civil tone (properly representing what I said), I will be happy to answer your questions.

Until you show me that courtesy, I choose not to deal with you.

Click to expand...

E95, my post is fine. The tone is fine. The questions, all fine. You are simply being asked to explain how you support your position that no-knock raids are essential.

Hit a nerve?

If you cannot substantiate your positions and your ideas, well, I guess....that you cannot.

Click to expand...

hNt: You have made your choice. I will move on. Maybe, someone else could ask a similar question. I would answer any such respectfully asked query.

Click to expand...

I have no respect for the view that all no-knock raids upon citizens are essential and needed.

Not one iota of respect.

I guess I am intolerant.

I see your demand for "respectful" questions as as a way of avoiding responsibility for your own apologist support for unlawful police actions. We need only "respect" people who show us respect. We need not respect people who do not even stand behind their own ideas.

eye95 wrote:

I have no respect for the view that we do not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Not one iota of respect.

I guess I am intolerant.

I see the demand for tolerance as a way of forcing legitimacy on repugnant ideas. We need only respect people who show us respect. We need not respect their ideas.

Click to expand...

Hank, today you are my favorite poster.

Well said, sir.

GLOCK21GB · May 17, 2010

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Since both Criminals & PoLICE are known to Kick in peoples doors at 3 am, If it happens here I don't have the time to ask them questions, so It will be treated as a hostile HOME INVASION & who ever comes inside my home will be treated as criminals...so I vote.....WHO ever kicks in my door at 3 am is getting this.......one round at a time x 5000

You're door crashes down and you hear "POLICE!"

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