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Thread: Pilot arrested for concealed carry at Atlanta Airport

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    http://www.11alive.com/rss/rss_story...storyid=144097

    Not much in the way of details yet. did he carry to defend himself and his passengers? Or, did he have nefarious motives? Should pilots carry?

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Should pilots carry? Are you kidding? Everyone should carry.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    I happen to agree. Not everyone will.

    So, no, I am not kidding.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    I think pilots should be allowed to carry. Like cabbitone said, they already have the lives of possibly hundreds of people in their hands.

    A small hole won't explosively depressurize a jet. Mythbusters already did that one. You need a pretty big friggen hole. If they do shoot a hole in it just descend below 10,000 and people can take off their oxygen masks. NBD.
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    cabbitone wrote:
    Honestly if we trust pilots to be on the up and up and not only fly us safely but to be trusted with whatever an air plane is going for and not to use them as weapons, we should trust them to be able to defend themselves and if they choose their passengers. Sure there should be some stipulations but they should be able to carry protection the same as air marshals. If some one manages to sneak whatever on to a flight I'd hate to rely on the CHANCE that it may have an air marshal or that MAYBE the passengers will be able to overpower whomever/whatever.

    By stipulations, I mean MAYBE some form of training, I have no idea what you'd need to know for being on a plane, and type of gear like fragmenting ammo that is designed not to pierce the skin of a plane.
    Have you watched the MythBusters episode where they try to cause an explosive decompression? Piercing the skin of a plane is not a real concern. The real fear would be damage to systems critical to maintaining flight. However, considering redundancy and other design features to aid in landing a crippled plane, I don't even worry about that.

    Of course, there is the argument about the safety of the other passengers. However, this argument is no different than the argument on the ground.

    We have already seen what can happen if we allow hijackers to take control of a plane. Could a tragedy resulting from trying to prevent the hijackers from gaining control be much worse?

    I think that all pilots should be trained on systems that could be damaged by gunfire and that any pilot who otherwise qualifies to own a firearm be allowed to carry it, concealed or openly, while on duty.

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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    I think pilots should be allowed to carry. Like cabbitone said, they already have the lives of possibly hundreds of people in their hands.

    A small hole won't explosively depressurize a jet. Mythbusters already did that one. You need a pretty big friggen hole. If they do shoot a hole in it just descend below 10,000 and people can take off their oxygen masks. NBD.
    I had to take a call while I was typing my post. Of course, I didn't see that you had beaten me to the punch on the MythBusters!

    IIRC, it took a huge explosion to create the explosive decompression. And, huge explosions on a plane create a lot more problems than just the decompression.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    From the news article:
    ATLANTA -- Police arrested a Delta Air Lines pilot at Hartsfield Jackson International Airport Monday morning for carrying a concealed weapon. Matthew McDaniel was arrested by police at about 8:30 Monday morning at the airport, and taken to the Clayton County Jail.According to Atlanta police, an officer was called to the T-gates checkpoint after a report of a weapon found by TSA screeners. An x-ray machine found a loaded .38 special in McDaniel's luggage. He told police that he forgotten to remove the gun after cleaning out his girlfriend's bag.
    The guy failed to declare his handgun, which he had improperly stored in his checked (??) luggage.

    The "I forgot" excuse will not cover him. He's toast.

    While I despise the TSA regs as much as anyone else, they do exist and until repealed/recalled we are going to have to live with and obey them or suffer the consequences. He failed to inspect his luggage - something folks should have learned over the last nine years is a very necessary thing to do.

    Sorry, but no sympathy here.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    'Nuff Sed...


    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    cabbitone wrote:
    Honestly if we trust pilots to be on the up and up and not only fly us safely but to be trusted with whatever an air plane is going for and not to use them as weapons, we should trust them to be able to defend themselves and if they choose their passengers. Sure there should be some stipulations but they should be able to carry protection the same as air marshals. If some one manages to sneak whatever on to a flight I'd hate to rely on the CHANCE that it may have an air marshal or that MAYBE the passengers will be able to overpower whomever/whatever.

    By stipulations, I mean MAYBE some form of training, I have no idea what you'd need to know for being on a plane, and type of gear like fragmenting ammo that is designed not to pierce the skin of a plane.
    Go ahead and "pierce the skin" as much as you want. With the amount of ammo you could sneak onto a plane, the airframe would never notice.

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    cabbitone wrote:
    Honestly if we trust pilots to be on the up and up and not only fly us safely but to be trusted with whatever an air plane is going for and not to use them as weapons, we should trust them to be able to defend themselves and if they choose their passengers. Sure there should be some stipulations but they should be able to carry protection the same as air marshals. If some one manages to sneak whatever on to a flight I'd hate to rely on the CHANCE that it may have an air marshal or that MAYBE the passengers will be able to overpower whomever/whatever.

    By stipulations, I mean MAYBE some form of training, I have no idea what you'd need to know for being on a plane, and type of gear like fragmenting ammo that is designed not to pierce the skin of a plane.
    I'm suprised that nobody has said this yet or knows this... Pilots that are Air Marshals ARE allowed to carry on the plane... Yes, they share the nameas the Federal Air Marshals, but they are not the same... If you are a pilot, all you have to do is go through the training, pass some shooting tests (which are super easy), pass a background check, and you are an Air Marshal and can carry a gun with you on the plane... My wife's dad is one.

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    Maybe it's my concussion, but I thought a ruling was made that pilots could carry after they went through a special course. The last I heard the course was way backed up. I thought the FAA approved it, but at the time I read this, only one airline gave the green light. IS it my concussion or not?

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    I like to post before I read everyone else's posts so I won't be influenced. This time, I should have read first! I'm glad to know that I haven't suffered another brain bleed.

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    I think we could cut the cost of added security in airports by allowing everyone to carry firearms onto a plane. Last time I checked, law abiding citizens outnumbered criminals, so even if a hijacker got on a plane with a gun, I like my odds.
    Nevada Campus Carry: The Movement Continues
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    I think we could cut the cost of added security in airports by allowing everyone to carry firearms onto a plane. Last time I checked, law abiding citizens outnumbered criminals, so even if a hijacker got on a plane with a gun, I like my odds.
    We all know that anywhere weapons are not permitted, only criminals will be so equipped. Terroists will continue to find new ways to avoid the current screening process. In return, the FAA will counter with added security methods. Maybe if we all flew naked, after intensive cavity searches, we might then be safe!

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    Reading Comprehension, people...

    The original story was about a pilot who got busted for having an undeclared firearm in his CHECKED luggage.

    He wasn't wearing it on his hip, or in his pocket, or his ankle. He had it in his CHECKED LUGGAGE, and he didn't declare or properly secure it. It has nothing to do with polits being able to leaglly carry in the cockpit. It has hothing to do with Pilots having Air Marshall credentials. The pilot F-ed up, and did something that even a TSA officer would have gotten busted for.

    Anyone who is legal to own a gun CAN legally put a firearm in their checked luggage--IF you declare it with TSA, and IF you have it in a TSA-approved container.

    But you can't just go tossing a pistol in your soft-sided Samsonite, and throw it on the "checked luggage" desk, which is what this pilot did.

    Go back and read the story. About 90% of this thread is nonsensical BS that has NOTHING to do with the original story--do some of of you people even BOTHER to use the hotlinks and read these stories before you comment on them?

    Jumpin' Haysoose on a pogostick, people... Reading is Fundamental...
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    How about this for a reading lesson: Here is the first post. The headline and the text in the linked article refers to a concealed weapon. We later learned that it was in his luggage.

    Here is one more thing that reading would have helped with. I, as the OP, specifically asked for opinions on pilots carrying, since it seemed to be relevant based upon the original story.

    It might be helpful to read carefully before demanding that others do so.

    <--> <O>

    eye95 wrote:
    http://www.11alive.com/rss/rss_story...storyid=144097

    Not much in the way of details yet. did he carry to defend himself and his passengers? Or, did he have nefarious motives? Should pilots carry?

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    Dreamer wrote:
    <image snip>
    Oooh, the crossfire. :shock:



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    donny wrote:
    Armed pilots are not Air Marshalls. They're called Federal Flight Deck Officers and possess nowhere near the same enforcement or carry powers as FAMs. The FAM Service runs the FFDO program though. And I wouldn't call the training all that easy...
    Exactly. The Department of Transportation has made it fairly difficult and expensive to get the training. A pilot has to want it really bad to go through the hoops that they require.

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    ccwinstructor wrote:
    donny wrote:
    Armed pilots are not Air Marshalls. They're called Federal Flight Deck Officers and possess nowhere near the same enforcement or carry powers as FAMs. The FAM Service runs the FFDO program though. And I wouldn't call the training all that easy...
    Exactly. The Department of Transportation has made it fairly difficult and expensive to get the training. A pilot has to want it really bad to go through the hoops that they require.
    If I was A pilot I would.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    eye95 wrote:
    Piercing the skin of a plane is not a real concern. The real fear would be damage to systems critical to maintaining flight. However, considering redundancy and other design features to aid in landing a crippled plane, I don't even worry about that.
    I gotta wonder how much redundancy and design features were created with potentialbullet damage in mind.

    You may elect to not even worry about that. But that choice may not be justified.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Well just arm them with Swine's dart gun.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    cabbitone wrote:
    Looping back around past the potential problems back to the pilots themselves, is there anything in place precluding people with criminal histories(felons etc) from becoming commercial pilots?
    There is no background check required to get a pilot's license, but all airlines and most other major aviation employers do a background check as part of the application process.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    I gotta wonder how much redundancy and design features were created with potentialbullet damage in mind.

    You may elect to not even worry about that. But that choice may not be justified.
    Depends if you're considering a commercial airliner (none) or an A-10 (lots).

    Nevertheless, it would be very, verydifficult for a handgun bullet (or bullets) to cripple an airliner, despite what you might have seen on TV or in the movies. Decompressions, an engine failure, hydraulic failure, fuel leaks--all these can be dealt with. Even certain failures of the flight controls can be overcome. Consider the Hawaiian 737 "convertible", the MD-11 crash in Iowa, and Sully's Hudson River excursion as examples of how airliners can survive (to varying degrees) massive damage .

    This does not preclude the hypothetical "golden BB" that somehow does fatal damage (maybe hits a fuel line and electrical wiring simultaneously, causing an explosion). However, the statistical odds are such that I would be much more concerned with Iranian nuclear terrorism, alien invasion, or even zombies.

    To sum up: as a commercial pilot, I elect not to worry about it and recommend everyone else follow suit.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Eeyore wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    I gotta wonder how much redundancy and design features were created with potentialbullet damage in mind.

    You may elect to not even worry about that. But that choice may not be justified.
    Depends if you're considering a commercial airliner (none) or an A-10 (lots).

    Nevertheless, it would be very, verydifficult for a handgun bullet (or bullets) to cripple an airliner, despite what you might have seen on TV or in the movies. Decompressions, an engine failure, hydraulic failure, fuel leaks--all these can be dealt with. Even certain failures of the flight controls can be overcome. Consider the Hawaiian 737 "convertible", the MD-11 crash in Iowa, and Sully's Hudson River excursion as examples of how airliners can survive (to varying degrees) massive damage .

    This does not preclude the hypothetical "golden BB" that somehow does fatal damage (maybe hits a fuel line and electrical wiring simultaneously, causing an explosion). However, the statistical odds are such that I would be much more concerned with Iranian nuclear terrorism, alien invasion, or even zombies.

    To sum up: as a commercial pilot, I elect not to worry about it and recommend everyone else follow suit.
    Let's not consider an A-10.

    So a gunshot to a fuel line coincident with a hit on electrical wiring might produce crippling damage? What wouldor couldhappen in such an event?

    How much fuel liine and electrical wiring is there in a typical passenger airlner. Say a 757? Are there any other critical items that could cause serious problems if damaged/destroyed by a gunshot? Other than the pilot.

    BTW, since you're a commercial pilot: Do you cary a gun onboard? What do you think of LACs onboard with guns, say if they had a CPL/CCW? How about OC?

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    From what I have heard about the FFDO program, the requirement to encase the gun to/from the aircraft is partly to balme for the one negligent discharge - seems to me the policy should be to MINIMIZE gun handling - FFDOs should be allowed to carry concealed in their holster to from all flight assignments and official airline business and be federally exempt from all state carry laws while on duty like this.

    I think this may take Congressional action as bureaucrats just have to have their complicated and often silly/dangerous rules.

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