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Locked, Cocked, but Not ready to Rock

amzbrady

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oldkim wrote:
Sorry but you said you used to carry a 1911?

And you are asking what mode is the best to carry?



Just odd - it's whole purpose in design is to be carried in condition 1 - loaded, cocked and safety engaged.

Half cocked? I carried a military issue 1911A1 and there is no half cock on a 1911 - I'm sure there there are many variants now. I'm just asking - I don't know everything out there but it just doesn't seem to make sense.

Certainly, on the flip side you can carry in whichever manner you feel safe and comfortable but it's designed to be carried in this manner. Doing otherwise does have it's risk - putting a hammer down is not atotally safe practice.
Heres a Tony Santiago type question : Are wheel guns supposed to be carried hammer down or cocked? :uhoh:
 

fight4your_rights

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Condition 2 is perhaps the most unsafe mode since you have no safety when cocking or de-cocking the hammer. It can also lead to mode confusion and ND's when handling the weapon for cleaning, etc.

Half cock should not be used. It was supposedly designed as a last ditch in case the hammer fell but in some cases it won't always stop the hammer from striking the firing pin.

Condition 3...might as well carry a club.

As another poster said, if you don't feel comfortable with Condition 1, then don't carry a single action auto.
 

Son_of_Perdition

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oldkim wrote:
Sorry but you said you used to carry a 1911?

And you are asking what mode is the best to carry?



Just odd - it's whole purpose in design is to be carried in condition 1 - loaded, cocked and safety engaged.

Half cocked? I carried a military issue 1911A1 and there is no half cock on a 1911 - I'm sure there there are many variants now. I'm just asking - I don't know everything out there but it just doesn't seem to make sense.

Certainly, on the flip side you can carry in whichever manner you feel safe and comfortable but it's designed to be carried in this manner. Doing otherwise does have it's risk - putting a hammer down is not atotally safe practice.
My Kimber 1911 has a half cock. Keeps the hammer and pin off the primer for safety. Pulling the trigger will not fire the gun until you full cock. I don't use 1/2 cock though.
 

oldkim

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The OP stated back in the 70's and 80's - not current production 1911.

Heck, now you can get a 1911 chambered in 9mm or whatever and in pink. Let's not confuse the issue here.

There is no half cocked for a military 1911A1. It's a single action. Not anything new or with in the last decade or two.



History lesson: half cocked orginates or refers to flint locks not 1911's.
 

Norman

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Ok guys, slow down here.

One of the more famous Texas Rangers carried a 1911 with a round chambered, and on the half-cock notch, with the grip safeties tied-down with a piece of rawhide. I am not sure why a 1911 would NOW have a half-cock notch, but NOT have one when it lacked a firing pin safety. I would give you a name, but I don't recall it, and it was in the back of a guns and ammo mag. Article was written by skeeter skelton though, if I remember right.

Also, when my Grandpa was in the military, they were not allowed to carry cocked and locked, under any circumstances. Their 1911 was carried on an empty chamber.
 

Son_of_Perdition

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Metalhead47 wrote:
Son_of_Perdition wrote:
"Israeli Carry".....i.e., carrying without a round chambered.

Thumb safety, no thumb safety, cocked, half cocked. Do not matter when you do not have a chambered cartridge. With one fluid pull of the slide as the weapon comes up on target is pure poetry. Or so I've been told.This is not best for some, but perfect for me. I only use the thumb safety after a discharge. Round in the pipe you know.
And what if your left hand is disabled or otherwise unusable? :shock:

I went back & forth on this myself till I read the story in a gun mag about a guy who was getting in or out of his car, thug came up & put a knife to his neck & said "I'm going to kill you & steal your car," guy pushed the knife away with his left hand, drew & fired with his right. If he'd had to rack the slide, he'd be dead. That convinced me.

Myself, I carry my HiPoint condition 1 always, the Tanfoglio I'm still debating whether to install a double-action trigger & carry with one in the pipe & hammer down ala Beretta 92.


Hum.. Good point but that story is fiction. The whole "I'm going to kill you & steal your car" only happens in movies. Real life would be the guy hops out of car and gets his neck cut from the unseen guy from behind. The end. Dirt bags don't have adiscussion about it before hand. The probability of the loss of use of both arms is highly unlikely but not completely far fetched. I like condition1. I am proficient at it. But some are losing sight of why I Use condition 3. I like to drive, I drive often. I do not have a permit that would allow me to carry loaded in the car. So why would I want to pullmy gun out and raise it in the air to clear a round when I'm standing in the middle of a crowded parking lot at the local Five and Dime.

So get a permit you say. At this time, I pay no man for the rightto bear arms. Think about it.I will at some point. Perhaps when I'm a slow old man and I need that extra 2/10th of a second reaction time.

EDIT: for spelling, Hooked on phonics didn't work for me.
 

oldkim

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Some further research:

Using the "half-cock" as a safety
The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a "fail-safe" and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn't use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.
Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with "Series 80" type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm


 

gogodawgs

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Son_of_Perdition wrote:
Hum.. Good point but that story is fiction. The whole "I'm going to kill you & steal your car" only happens in movies. Real life would be the guy hops out of car and gets his neck cut from the unseen guy from behind. The end. Dirt bags don't have adiscussion about it before hand. The probability of the loss of use of both arms is highly unlikely but not completely far fetched. I like condition1. I am proficient at it. But some are losing sight of why I Use condition 3. I like to drive, I drive often. I do not have a permit that would allow me to carry loaded in the car. So why would I want to pullmy gun out and raise it in the air to clear a round when I'm standing in the middle of a crowded parking lot at the local Five and Dime.

So get a permit you say. At this time, I pay no man for the rightto bear arms. Think about it.I will at some point. Perhaps when I'm a slow old man and I need that extra 2/10th of a second reaction time.

EDIT: for spelling, Hooked on phonics didn't work for me.
That is untrue, I witnessed this near exact event in 1988 in Vancouver, WA on Andreson Ave. It was in the newspaper. The car was allowed to be stolen. Firearm was kept concealed.
 

Son_of_Perdition

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gogodawgs wrote:
Son_of_Perdition wrote:
Hum.. Good point but that story is fiction. The whole "I'm going to kill you & steal your car" only happens in movies. Real life would be the guy hops out of car and gets his neck cut from the unseen guy from behind. The end. Dirt bags don't have adiscussion about it before hand. The probability of the loss of use of both arms is highly unlikely but not completely far fetched. I like condition1. I am proficient at it. But some are losing sight of why I Use condition 3. I like to drive, I drive often. I do not have a permit that would allow me to carry loaded in the car. So why would I want to pullmy gun out and raise it in the air to clear a round when I'm standing in the middle of a crowded parking lot at the local Five and Dime.

So get a permit you say. At this time, I pay no man for the rightto bear arms. Think about it.I will at some point. Perhaps when I'm a slow old man and I need that extra 2/10th of a second reaction time.

EDIT: for spelling, Hooked on phonics didn't work for me.
That is untrue, I witnessed this near exact event in 1988 in Vancouver, WA on Andreson Ave. It was in the newspaper. The car was allowed to be stolen. Firearm was kept concealed.

Fair enough. My point is that even in that situation. The actions of the perp were not effected by what condition the gun was in. When bad dudes go and cut up people. Be it crazy lady at Target. psycho kid slaying Chines dudes. It just happens. If that was what they were looking to have happen. What you witnessed wasn't someone looking to stab or they would have stabbed. I'm just trying to boil it down to simple commonterms and not encompass all situations. The story is most likely true. But what I failed to convey is that it is most likely something Iwill never encounter. The loss of use of my left hand that is. I bet your situation the victims left hand was in no way impeded anymore than the right,Iguess?What I mean is. If he could have used one hand. He could have used both. Or non at all as It appears it played out.

I'm not looking to fight or be a hatter. Irespect all your opinion's and in no way want to anger anyone on this forum. I do enjoy thoughtful debate and come ac-crossedaggressive sometimes. And if I do I apologize. I do carry condition 1 at times but 3 is more use-full to me. personal convenient preference.
 

gogodawgs

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Should you be prepared to fire one hand? off hand? or just strong hand and both hands?

I know my choice of weapon and method of carry leaves the options open for me. Sig229 DA/SA.

When I buy a 1911, I will buy a version I can carry, one that has an ambidextrous safety.
 

Son_of_Perdition

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gogodawgs wrote:
Should you be prepared to fire one hand? off hand? or just strong hand and both hands?

I know my choice of weapon and method of carry leaves the options open for me. Sig229 DA/SA.

When I buy a 1911, I will buy a version I can carry, one that has an ambidextrous safety.
It's good to be proficient at all I surmise. And with that you would just have to use whatever means available at the given time. You can't make a situation conform to you. You must conform to the situation.
 

BigDave

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As with any firearm have it loaded one in the pipe ready to put into action and if their is an external safety engage it, practice with it as well, so Cocked and Locked.

Some will argue the Israel carry is the way to go and charge a round when drawing to shoot, if I am not mistaken they no longer practice this.
What happens when you can only use one hand, how do you charge that round?

I have found some who are not comfortable with their weapon they tend not to carry with one in the pipe, I suggest you get use to it as it has it's benefits.

If you do not have a CPL well get one, this will allow you to as well carry in a stadium or convention center that a city ordinance prohibits firearms in and of course a vehicle. RCW 9.41.300 (2)(b)(i)
 

Son_of_Perdition

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I like condition 1. I love it bunch's when it is more convenient to carry that way.

Side note: Ifconvenience at the moment finds you Israeli carryingand one of your handsis incapacitated. You can just reach for your one-hand-cocking backup.

Doesn't everyone have one? (Tongue in cheek)

Lignose, Einhand 3A

lignose%20cal%206.35-01.jpg


lignose%20cal%206.35-03.jpg
 

marshaul

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oldkim wrote:
There is no half cocked for a military 1911A1.  It's a single action.  Not anything new or with in the last decade or two.

 

History lesson: half cocked orginates or refers to flint locks not 1911's.
Half-cock positions were and are used extensively on single-action revolvers. So, they certainly didn't disappear at any point before the 1911.

While it seems you've clarified this in a later posts, I just want to be clear for the history buffs:

The 1911, as it was originally designed, definitely did have a half-cock notch, although it was probably intended only as a failsafe in the even the hammer slipped during a transition from Condition 2 to Condition 1 (the pistol was, by the way, definitely designed to be carried in Condition 2 as well as Condition 1, as evidenced by the long, serrated hammer spur, and the lack of thumb safety (not grip safety as is so often erroneously claimed) on the 1910 prototype).

Anyway, it definitely existed from the beginning, and definitely would have been compared to a half-cock notch in its day.

Here is a copy of the blueprint from '28, shortly after the A1 was introduced:
 

1245A Defender

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Son_of_Perdition wrote:
I like condition 1. I love it bunch's when it is more convenient to carry that way.

Side note: Ifconvenience at the moment finds you Israeli carryingand one of your handsis incapacitated. You can just reach for your one-hand-cocking backup.

Doesn't everyone have one? (Tongue in cheek)

Lignose, Einhand 3A

lignose%20cal%206.35-01.jpg


lignose%20cal%206.35-03.jpg
my home modified RAVEN 25 auto,, im a lefty, carry empty pipe, striker down.
rack the slide with my trigger finger,, got a clip on the other side so it hangs in my pocket... ready to strike!!
001-3.jpg
 

Metalhead47

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Son_of_Perdition wrote:
I like condition 1. I love it bunch's when it is more convenient to carry that way.

Side note: Ifconvenience at the moment finds you Israeli carryingand one of your handsis incapacitated. You can just reach for your one-hand-cocking backup.

Doesn't everyone have one? (Tongue in cheek)

Lignose, Einhand 3A

lignose%20cal%206.35-01.jpg


lignose%20cal%206.35-03.jpg
:what:

Where the heck did you find that monstrosity? And people say Hipoints are ugly :uhoh:

I certainly respect where you're coming from about getting a permit. My thoughts are, much as it goads me to get a gov't permission slip to exercise my rights, that law isn't going to change any time soon, and since I don't get to choose when, how, or even if I need my sidearm to safe my life or another's, I would rather carry in a manner that best encompasses all possible situations (I've even practice drawing from the strong side with my weak hand), and always requires the same motions so there's no confused fuddling under stress.
 

Mainsail

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Ugh. Every time this comes up I have to wonder what people are thinking. If you knew, beforehand, that a violent criminal was going to attack you in the parking lot outside the grocery store, would you still go?

Carrying a firearm in such a condition that requires the use of both hands to make it ready to fire, assumes that you will have foreknowledge of the event and will be prepared by making sure that you have both hands free. Do you have such foreknowledge, and if so, why haven’t you won the lottery?

Any time you assume preparedness for only an exclusive (narrow) set of circumstances you are setting yourself up to fail.

If I am attacked:

I don’t know for sure that both my hands will be free…

I don’t know for sure that in a stressful situation I won’t short-stroke the slide…

I don’t know for sure that in a stressful situation I won’t be trying to squeeze the trigger while I’m chambering a round…

I don’t know what planet you’re on, but I seldom have two free hands. I might have a sack of groceries, a 2x4, the mail, cellphone, girlfriend, or any number of other things in my left hand that would either prevent or seriously slow my ability to engage an attacker. You can pretend you’re all mall ninja and walking around like Mr. Tacticool, arms at your side like some western gunslinger all the time, but I’m just a regular guy going about my business. Sometimes that business will occupy my off-hand.
 
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