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Thread: Cabarrus County CCW problems

  1. #1
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    Cabarrus County doesn't look so good for getting a CCW permt. I called down to ask when I could apply for a permit. The Sergeant over CCW permits started asking me for my name, address, phone numbers, SS#, DL#. I didn't want to give out my SS#, but she said it was necessary to enter me into the system for the background check. I also thought that she was going to start the application process over the phone. Then she asked for 3 references. I said state law didn't allow them to ask for references. She said that their policy was to require 3 references and that state law set the minimum requirements and they were free to go beyond that. I lost my cool and started ranting about how they didn't have the authority to go beyond state law. I finally got fed up and hung up.

    After about 10 minutes, I calmed down and called back and apologized for getting angry. I repeatedly stated my opposition to giving references and asked if I could apply and get denied for not providing references. She couldn't understand why I would want to waste $90 just to get denied.She also asked if I was unable to provide references. I said I could but I didn't want to because I didn't have to. She said she would have to check with the Sheriff to see if he would even accept the application without the references.

    A few hours later she called me back. She said she hadn't checked with the Sheriff yet, but that she was going to call the Attorney General's office before she asked the Sheriff. She also said that she checked their records, and I was on file because I got a purchase permit last year. She said I didn't need references because of this but still wanted to know why I didn't want to give references for a CCW but I did give them for a purchase permit. I told her that the Sheriff had the authority to ask for references before issuing a purchase permit. However for a CCW, he is required to issue a permit if the applicant meets the criteria. I started to read the statute and she cut me off saying that this was her job and she knew the requirements. She said she was still going to check with the AG but that I could come down that afternoon and apply. I told her I had to go to work and I would be down there on Wednesday.

    Also, for anyone in Cabarrus County, starting June 1, you're going to have to make an appointment to apply for a CCW. Their phone prompt says you have to make an appointment now, but it doesn't start until June 1. Unless I'm mistaken, this will apply for renewals too. I can only hope that Cabarrus County wont become like Guilford(I think) where they say you have to wait 6 months before you can even apply.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

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    Some of these counties seem to think they can get away with all sorts of outrageous demands with regards to CHP apps.

    First off, you are not required to give ANY info over the phone. All you need to do is walk in and request an application. You can fill it out on your own time, and have it notarized by any qualified notary you want. You then need to give them the app, the fees, and get fingerprinted, which they probably only do at certain times during the week.

    Someone at GRNC needs to start riding herd on these Sheriff's deparments, and the State AG's office, to get these folks in-line with the rest of the state.

    Eventually, these rogue Sheriffs are going to cost NC it's "gold star" rating, with their arbitrary policies, difficult schedules, and unreasonable demands.

    We need to nip this in the bud.

    Man, I'm glad I live in a county where the Sheriff actually believes in the Rule of Law, follows state guidelines, and processes apps with courtesy, speed and efficiency. I give total props to Beaufort County, and Sheriff Alan Jordan, for a job well done!
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    Regular Member TheFreeman's Avatar
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    I didn't know any better when I first got my permit. I did the whole references thing. I think they actually contacted one of them, but I can't remember. Other than that, I waited like 60 days or so and they called and said I could pick it up. Picked it up and I was done. The only other thing I have to do is get my address changed, which was quick and easy.

    That's no good about them starting that appointment thing. That is just a way to drag out the process and hang people up.

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Adam H wrote:
    I can only hope that Cabarrus County wont become like Guilford(I think) where they say you have to wait 6 months before you can even apply.
    After reading this sentence, I have no idea what you are talking about. There is no 6 month wait to apply for a permit. I called Monday, January 25th & got an appointment for the following Monday.
    Carry on!

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    In another post here, I'd read that some county had a six month wait to apply. I thought it was Guilford. It must have been another county.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    God's Plan of Salvation

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    Adam H wrote:
    In another post here, I'd read that some county had a six month wait to apply. I thought it was Guilford. It must have been another county.
    I saw the same comment but it was referring to how backed up the county was on appointments.

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    I misunderstood the comment. I thought they meant that Guilford County was intentionally making people wait for 6 months for an appointment. The comment about waiting 6 months for an interview that consisted of turning in the application threw me off.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

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    I understand your frustration. But if you want a CCW, I would be nice and follow their rules. But NC is a right to carry state. That means if you meet the requirements per the law, and pay the permit fee, YOU CAN CARRY !!





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    Why should I follow a rule that the Sheriff's Office has no authority to make or enforce? Giving in to these little infringements is how we got in this situation to begin with.

    I don't "play nice" when it comes to my rights.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

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    If they are truely trying to make you do more than state law allows , maybe you need to contact your state Rep. See if the Rep. can get a fire lit under their butts.

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    Contact my State Rep? I doubt that would do any good. Jeff Barnhardt doesn't seem to care about us.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    God's Plan of Salvation

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    My experience with the Sheriff's office being unhelpful was resolved with a visit to the Sheriff. If you are having trouble with their office, call and make an appointment with the Sheriff. It may take several calls or hold sessions to get an appointment to see him/her. I had to do this with my first pistol purchase permits and it was very easy once I got the Sheriff involved. They are politicians, not bureaucrats, at least not when they are face to face with a constituent.

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    I don't care now. I went down today and applied for the permit. The woman behind the counter didn't like the fact that I refused to put my SS# on the application. I explained that the application said that it was optional. She said it would make it difficult to process my background check without it. I said I would rather not list it. She then said she would get it off my application for a purchase permit from last year. I told her she was free to do that if she wanted to.

    While I was waiting to get fingerprinted, a deputy came and called me aside. She wanted to know why I was being difficult and refused to put my SS# down. I told her it was optional. She said it was but that she couldn't do the FBI background check without it. I said I never list it when buying a gun and I've never had any problems.She said buying a gun and getting a CCW were two completely different things and that I should just cooperate and list my SS#. She also said that she couldn't process my background check without my SS#. She said since I want the CCW, it's in my best interest to cooperate with them and not make things difficult. I finally tried to make her happy by saying if the woman behind the counter had explained this, I would have listed it. She still wanted to lecture me on why I should cooperate. Finally after agreeing with everything she said and "realizing" that I should make it easier on them since I came to them for the CCW. Sure, I didn't, but sometimes you've just got to pick and choose the battles you can win and know when to walk away from ones you can't. I didn't agree with her, and I knew she was bluffing, but I was staring to get a little aggravated with her and I knew that I would lose my cool if I kept arguing my point.

    The only was I got through that was becasue I asked the Lord to help me keep my cool if they started to give me a hard time.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    God's Plan of Salvation

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    I won't lecture on giving or not giving your SSN, but when you told her she was free to take it off of another app, you consented to their use. If you did not consent, I don't believe they could have legally used your SSN. A somewhat moot point now, but I think it important to highlight the nuance.

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    In the words of the deputy that confronted me, I said something along the lines of, "If you want to get it off of the other application, you can, but I'm not giving it to you." The women pulled my SS# off my purchase permit application,and said to the deputy, "I got this SS# off of his purchase permit application, I don't know if it's his or not." The deputy actually asked me, "Is your SS# XX-XXX-XXXX?" I confirmed that it was, but I never told her that I consented to them taking it off of my purchase permit application. Essentially, I told them, if you take it from another application, I can't do anything to stop you. However, I do not consent to this.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    God's Plan of Salvation

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    Adam H:

    Letter going out to Cabarrus Co. Sheriff today.

    FPV

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    To Adam H: FYI, this is the e-mail I sent Riley. Will let you know what they say.

    FPV

    To:Sheriff D. Brad Riley
    From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina
    Re:Character references for concealed handgun permits

    Dear Sheriff Riley:

    As Eddie Caldwell of the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association will attest, Grass Roots North Carolina represents many thousands of gun owners in North Carolina. In fact, we werecentral todrafting and passing North Carolina's original concealed handgun law, our concealed handgun reciprocity law, and our law bypassing pistol purchase permits for concealed handgun permit-holders.

    Reports have been made that administrators in your office are advising people that character references are required to obtain concealed handgun permits. As I am sure you are aware, § 14-415.11(b) of the North Carolina General Statutes stipulates that"The sheriff shall issue a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S.14-415.12."

    Furthermore, nothing in § 14-415.12 either requires or enables a sheriff to ask for character references in North Carolina's non-discretionary concealed handgun permit system.

    Accordingly, please reply within ten (10) business days to the following:

    1. Are members of your staff advising people to obtain character references to apply for concealed handgun permits under Article 54B of the North Carolina General Statutes?

    2. If so, is it or has it been the policy of the Cabarrus County Sheriff's Department to require such character references?

    3. If misinformation has been inadvertently given to applicants, what remedial training or measures will be taken to rectify the problem?

    4. If it has, in fact, been your policy to require character references, what will you do to rectify this non-compliance with North Carolina General Statutes, including (but not limited to) advising previous callers and applicants of the erroneous procedure?

    Please feel free to contact me at the e-mail address above, or at (704) 907-9206 so that we may resolve this issue promptly.

    Respectfully,
    F. Paul Valone
    President, Grass Roots North Carolina

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    Dreamer: You may notice that I just sent a notice to the sheriff of Cabarrus. Also to Stokes on another issue and about to send one to Mecklenburg. I should note, however, that if GRNC should be doing this -- and we should -- then we are not clairvoyant. We need people to report it to us. Like the Harris Teeter issue, I found out about this only because one of GRNC's leadership network happened upon it. My e-mail is president@GRNC.org. When you find REASONABLE things for GRNC to pursue, let us know. For corporations, we ask that you do some initial footwork to find corporate contacts. For sheriffs, we need EVIDENCE that they are doing something not in compliance with NC law.

    Thanks

    Paul

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    FPV02 wrote:
    To Adam H: FYI, this is the e-mail I sent Riley. Will let you know what they say.

    FPV

    To:Sheriff D. Brad Riley
    From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina
    Re:Character references for concealed handgun permits

    Dear Sheriff Riley:

    As Eddie Caldwell of the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association will attest, Grass Roots North Carolina represents many thousands of gun owners in North Carolina. In fact, we werecentral todrafting and passing North Carolina's original concealed handgun law, our concealed handgun reciprocity law, and our law bypassing pistol purchase permits for concealed handgun permit-holders.

    Reports have been made that administrators in your office are advising people that character references are required to obtain concealed handgun permits. As I am sure you are aware, § 14-415.11(b) of the North Carolina General Statutes stipulates that"The sheriff shall issue a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S.14-415.12."

    Furthermore, nothing in § 14-415.12 either requires or enables a sheriff to ask for character references in North Carolina's non-discretionary concealed handgun permit system.

    Accordingly, please reply within ten (10) business days to the following:

    1. Are members of your staff advising people to obtain character references to apply for concealed handgun permits under Article 54B of the North Carolina General Statutes?

    2. If so, is it or has it been the policy of the Cabarrus County Sheriff's Department to require such character references?

    3. If misinformation has been inadvertently given to applicants, what remedial training or measures will be taken to rectify the problem?

    4. If it has, in fact, been your policy to require character references, what will you do to rectify this non-compliance with North Carolina General Statutes, including (but not limited to) advising previous callers and applicants of the erroneous procedure?

    Please feel free to contact me at the e-mail address above, or at (704) 907-9206 so that we may resolve this issue promptly.

    Respectfully,
    F. Paul Valone
    President, Grass Roots North Carolina
    I like that. Please do post what his reply is as I'm in Cabarrus county as well.

  20. #20
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    Paul, thanks for addressing this issue. I didn't mean to imply that GRNC wasn't doing anything, I just meant to point out that you guys have a lot more clout than individuals, and when you get involved in issues like this, things DO tend to get set right.

    I'm eager to see how this issue pans out, and I appreciate your attention to this issue.

    Luckily, I live in Beaufort Co., and Sheriff Jordan and his Deputies actually follow the laws of our fine state, and run a pretty tight, courteous, and effective operation in this county. But as you are aware, not all counties in NC are being run in accordance to NC law with regards to things like CHP's and HPP's, and several counties are in fact requiring information that far exceeds the statutory requirements (like egregious fees for HPP's, bullying people to use their SSN's on applications, and requiring "personal reference letter".) I've dealt with some of the counties in PA as well, and it's a similar situation up there--some Sheriffs follow the law to the letter, and others make up all sorts of silly, intrusive, and prohibitive "rules" and "requirements" that far exceed State statute.

    The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance, and we "little guys" in the field do what we can to help out the "big guys" in organizations like GRNC, VCDL and others, to keep you informed, point you toward issues that need resolved, and make you aware of bad laws that we need changed. Maintaining our freedoms is a team effort, and we all need to work together--the individuals in our state, AND the politically influential organizations.

    Sorry if you misunderstood my intent. I was actually trying to complement GRNC, and the pull they have as NC's largest 2A-support organization.

    Keep up the great work, and I'm sure you guys at GRNC will get the Cabarrus Co. Sheriff's office on the right track in this matter.

    Thanks for your good work!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Not meaning to harp, but the way it's been worded, I believe that a reasonable person could construe your words as consent:

    "If you want to get it off of the other application, you can, but I'm not giving it to you."

    Let me show you how this reads to me:

    "If you want to take the information from the other application, that is fine, I'm just not going to personally provide it to you"

    If you do not want to consent to it, then you may want to be more explicit in your wording. Something like:
    "Although I cannot stop you from looking at the form, I do not consent to the use of my SSN on this application"

    would probably be in order.

    This is just my opinion, of course, I'm no lawyer. It looks to me like you inadvertently gave consent to use it.

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    Carry Open, I see what you mean.

    FPV02, maybe I haven't been giving GRNC credit. Maybe y'all aren't just wasting money that should be spent defending the RKBA.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    God's Plan of Salvation

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    To Dreamer: Thanks for your remarks. We do what we can.

    With regard to the Cabarrus Co. Sheriff's Dept., I just received a call from attorney Greg Rodgers of Smith, Rodgers & Strickland, legal counsel for the Cabarrus Co. Sheriff's Dept. He assures us that the section requiring character references has been removed from the concealed handgun permit application.

    Most amusing, his excusewas pretty much "a lot of the other sheriffs are doing it too" to which I replied, "So if I get pulled over for speeding in Cabarrus County, I'll get off if I say everbody else is speeding too?" He realized that argument was a loser and backed off fast.

    Since it appears there are other irregularities in the issuance of concealed handgun permits in other counties, if anybody sees anything, please contact me at president@GRNC.org

    Paul

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    It seems Washington County is non-compliant as well. My note to Sher. Ross:



    To:Sheriff James Ross

    From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina

    Re:Character references for concealed handgun permits



    Dear Sheriff Ross:



    As Eddie Caldwell of the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association will attest, Grass Roots North Carolina represents many thousands of gun owners in North Carolina. In fact, we werecentral todrafting and passing North Carolina's original concealed handgun law, our concealed handgun reciprocity law, and our law bypassing pistol purchase permits for concealed handgun permit-holders.



    According to your web site, concealed handgun permit applications must be accompanied by character references, to whit:



    • References
      1. Applicants must have three (3) separate character references.
      2. References must be at least 21 years old.
      3. References must be a resident of Washington County.
      4. References must not be related to you, or each other, by blood or marriage.
      5. All references must have different addresses from each other and the applicant.
      6. Applicant must provide a valid phone number for the references.

    As I am sure you are aware, § 14-415.11(b) of the North Carolina General Statutes stipulates that"The sheriff shall issue[/b] a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S.14-415.12." [Emphasis added]



    Furthermore, nothing in § 14-415.12 either requires or enables a sheriff to ask for character references in North Carolina's non-discretionary[/b] concealed handgun permit system.



    Accordingly, please reply within ten (10) business days to the following:



    1. Are members of your staff advising people to obtain character references to apply for concealed handgun permits under Article 54B of the North Carolina General Statutes?



    2. If so, is it or has it been the policy of the Washington County Sheriff's Department to require such character references?



    3. If misinformation has been inadvertently given to applicants, what remedial training or measures will be taken to rectify the problem?



    4. If it has, in fact, been your policy to require character references, what will you do to rectify this non-compliance with North Carolina General Statutes, including (but not limited to) advising previous callers and applicants of the erroneous procedure?



    Please feel free to contact me at the e-mail address above, or at (704) 907-9206 so that we may resolve this issue promptly.



    Respectfully,

    F. Paul Valone

    President, Grass Roots North Carolina

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    And for good measure, one to the weasel who lobbies for the North Carolina Sheriffs Association. He doesn't like me much, but he understands that we will beat the crap out of him -- as we have done before -- if he doesn't comply.



    To:Edmund W. Caldwell, Jr., Executive Vice President, North Carolina Sheriffs Association
    From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina
    Re:Violations of law regarding issuance of concealed handgun permits

    Eddie:

    Hope you've been well. Below is an e-mail I just sent Washington County Sheriff James Ross regarding his practice of requiring character references for concealed handgun permits. It follows a similar e-mail to Sheriff Riley of Cabarrus County. Yet another letter has been faxed to Sheriff Joyce of Stokes County with regard to additional charges paid by applicants to the Clerk of Court. And I am about to send a letter to Sheriff Bailey of Mecklenburg County regarding failure to send concealed handgun permit renewal notifications as required since January 1 under § 14-415.16.

    Given that when counsel for Cabarrus County called to inform us that character references were being removed from applications to comply with the law, their principal excuse was "other sheriffs are doing it too," it seems clear that we have compliance problems in which sheriffs are inventing new requirements for North Carolina's non-discretionary concealed handgun permit system.

    Accordingly, I would suggest you counsel NCSA members on the need to comply with state law in issuing such permits, lest GRNC have to start slinging lawsuits at sheriffs for non-compliance with the law. If we have to do so, I assure you that we will use it to raise a boatload of money which I would take delight in using to target sheriff races across the state.

    Please call me at (704) 907-9206 if I can be of further assistance.

    F. Paul Valone
    President, Grass Roots North Carolina




    [line]
    From: GRNCFFE@aol.com
    To: jross@washconc.org
    BCC: GRNCFFE@aol.com
    Sent: 5/28/2010 10:32:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: Sheriff Ross: Character references for concealed handgun permits



    To:Sheriff James Ross

    From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina

    Re:Character references for concealed handgun permits



    Dear Sheriff Ross:



    As Eddie Caldwell of the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association will attest, Grass Roots North Carolina represents many thousands of gun owners in North Carolina. In fact, we werecentral todrafting and passing North Carolina's original concealed handgun law, our concealed handgun reciprocity law, and our law bypassing pistol purchase permits for concealed handgun permit-holders.



    According to your web site, concealed handgun permit applications must be accompanied by character references, to whit:



    • References
      1. Applicants must have three (3) separate character references.
      2. References must be at least 21 years old.
      3. References must be a resident of Washington County.
      4. References must not be related to you, or each other, by blood or marriage.
      5. All references must have different addresses from each other and the applicant.
      6. Applicant must provide a valid phone number for the references.

    As I am sure you are aware, § 14-415.11(b) of the North Carolina General Statutes stipulates that"The sheriff shall issue[/b] a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S.14-415.12." [Emphasis added]



    Furthermore, nothing in § 14-415.12 either requires or enables a sheriff to ask for character references in North Carolina's non-discretionary[/b] concealed handgun permit system.



    Accordingly, please reply within ten (10) business days to the following:



    1. Are members of your staff advising people to obtain character references to apply for concealed handgun permits under Article 54B of the North Carolina General Statutes?



    2. If so, is it or has it been the policy of the Washington County Sheriff's Department to require such character references?



    3. If misinformation has been inadvertently given to applicants, what remedial training or measures will be taken to rectify the problem?



    4. If it has, in fact, been your policy to require character references, what will you do to rectify this non-compliance with North Carolina General Statutes, including (but not limited to) advising previous callers and applicants of the erroneous procedure?



    Please feel free to contact me at the e-mail address above, or at (704) 907-9206 so that we may resolve this issue promptly.



    Respectfully,

    F. Paul Valone

    President, Grass Roots North Carolina

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