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Cabarrus County CCW problems

CarryOpen

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Not meaning to harp, but the way it's been worded, I believe that a reasonable person could construe your words as consent:

"If you want to get it off of the other application, you can, but I'm not giving it to you."

Let me show you how this reads to me:

"If you want to take the information from the other application, that is fine, I'm just not going to personally provide it to you"

If you do not want to consent to it, then you may want to be more explicit in your wording. Something like:
"Although I cannot stop you from looking at the form, I do not consent to the use of my SSN on this application"

would probably be in order.

This is just my opinion, of course, I'm no lawyer. It looks to me like you inadvertently gave consent to use it.
 

FPV02

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To Dreamer: Thanks for your remarks. We do what we can.

With regard to the Cabarrus Co. Sheriff's Dept., I just received a call from attorney Greg Rodgers of Smith, Rodgers & Strickland, legal counsel for the Cabarrus Co. Sheriff's Dept. He assures us that the section requiring character references has been removed from the concealed handgun permit application.

Most amusing, his excusewas pretty much "a lot of the other sheriffs are doing it too" to which I replied, "So if I get pulled over for speeding in Cabarrus County, I'll get off if I say everbody else is speeding too?" He realized that argument was a loser and backed off fast.

Since it appears there are other irregularities in the issuance of concealed handgun permits in other counties, if anybody sees anything, please contact me at president@GRNC.org

Paul
 

FPV02

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It seems Washington County is non-compliant as well. My note to Sher. Ross:



To:Sheriff James Ross

From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina

Re:Character references for concealed handgun permits



Dear Sheriff Ross:



As Eddie Caldwell of the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association will attest, Grass Roots North Carolina represents many thousands of gun owners in North Carolina. In fact, we werecentral todrafting and passing North Carolina's original concealed handgun law, our concealed handgun reciprocity law, and our law bypassing pistol purchase permits for concealed handgun permit-holders.



According to your web site, concealed handgun permit applications must be accompanied by character references, to whit:



  • References
    1. Applicants must have three (3) separate character references.
    2. References must be at least 21 years old.
    3. References must be a resident of Washington County.
    4. References must not be related to you, or each other, by blood or marriage.
    5. All references must have different addresses from each other and the applicant.
    6. Applicant must provide a valid phone number for the references.
As I am sure you are aware, § 14-415.11(b) of the North Carolina General Statutes stipulates that"The sheriff shall issue[/b] a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S.14-415.12." [Emphasis added]



Furthermore, nothing in § 14-415.12 either requires or enables a sheriff to ask for character references in North Carolina's non-discretionary[/b] concealed handgun permit system.



Accordingly, please reply within ten (10) business days to the following:



1. Are members of your staff advising people to obtain character references to apply for concealed handgun permits under Article 54B of the North Carolina General Statutes?



2. If so, is it or has it been the policy of the Washington County Sheriff's Department to require such character references?



3. If misinformation has been inadvertently given to applicants, what remedial training or measures will be taken to rectify the problem?



4. If it has, in fact, been your policy to require character references, what will you do to rectify this non-compliance with North Carolina General Statutes, including (but not limited to) advising previous callers and applicants of the erroneous procedure?



Please feel free to contact me at the e-mail address above, or at (704) 907-9206 so that we may resolve this issue promptly.



Respectfully,

F. Paul Valone

President, Grass Roots North Carolina
 

FPV02

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And for good measure, one to the weasel who lobbies for the North Carolina Sheriffs Association. He doesn't like me much, but he understands that we will beat the crap out of him -- as we have done before -- if he doesn't comply.



To:Edmund W. Caldwell, Jr., Executive Vice President, North Carolina Sheriffs Association
From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina
Re:Violations of law regarding issuance of concealed handgun permits

Eddie:

Hope you've been well. Below is an e-mail I just sent Washington County Sheriff James Ross regarding his practice of requiring character references for concealed handgun permits. It follows a similar e-mail to Sheriff Riley of Cabarrus County. Yet another letter has been faxed to Sheriff Joyce of Stokes County with regard to additional charges paid by applicants to the Clerk of Court. And I am about to send a letter to Sheriff Bailey of Mecklenburg County regarding failure to send concealed handgun permit renewal notifications as required since January 1 under § 14-415.16.

Given that when counsel for Cabarrus County called to inform us that character references were being removed from applications to comply with the law, their principal excuse was "other sheriffs are doing it too," it seems clear that we have compliance problems in which sheriffs are inventing new requirements for North Carolina's non-discretionary concealed handgun permit system.

Accordingly, I would suggest you counsel NCSA members on the need to comply with state law in issuing such permits, lest GRNC have to start slinging lawsuits at sheriffs for non-compliance with the law. If we have to do so, I assure you that we will use it to raise a boatload of money which I would take delight in using to target sheriff races across the state.

Please call me at (704) 907-9206 if I can be of further assistance.

F. Paul Valone
President, Grass Roots North Carolina




[line]
From: GRNCFFE@aol.com
To: jross@washconc.org
BCC: GRNCFFE@aol.com
Sent: 5/28/2010 10:32:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Sheriff Ross: Character references for concealed handgun permits



To:Sheriff James Ross

From:F. Paul Valone, President, Grass Roots North Carolina

Re:Character references for concealed handgun permits



Dear Sheriff Ross:



As Eddie Caldwell of the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association will attest, Grass Roots North Carolina represents many thousands of gun owners in North Carolina. In fact, we werecentral todrafting and passing North Carolina's original concealed handgun law, our concealed handgun reciprocity law, and our law bypassing pistol purchase permits for concealed handgun permit-holders.



According to your web site, concealed handgun permit applications must be accompanied by character references, to whit:



  • References
    1. Applicants must have three (3) separate character references.
    2. References must be at least 21 years old.
    3. References must be a resident of Washington County.
    4. References must not be related to you, or each other, by blood or marriage.
    5. All references must have different addresses from each other and the applicant.
    6. Applicant must provide a valid phone number for the references.
As I am sure you are aware, § 14-415.11(b) of the North Carolina General Statutes stipulates that"The sheriff shall issue[/b] a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S.14-415.12." [Emphasis added]



Furthermore, nothing in § 14-415.12 either requires or enables a sheriff to ask for character references in North Carolina's non-discretionary[/b] concealed handgun permit system.



Accordingly, please reply within ten (10) business days to the following:



1. Are members of your staff advising people to obtain character references to apply for concealed handgun permits under Article 54B of the North Carolina General Statutes?



2. If so, is it or has it been the policy of the Washington County Sheriff's Department to require such character references?



3. If misinformation has been inadvertently given to applicants, what remedial training or measures will be taken to rectify the problem?



4. If it has, in fact, been your policy to require character references, what will you do to rectify this non-compliance with North Carolina General Statutes, including (but not limited to) advising previous callers and applicants of the erroneous procedure?



Please feel free to contact me at the e-mail address above, or at (704) 907-9206 so that we may resolve this issue promptly.



Respectfully,

F. Paul Valone

President, Grass Roots North Carolina
 

Dreamer

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Paul, We all really appreciate your hard work on these various issues with extra-legal "requirements" that some Sheriffs put on CHP applications. Great work!

I hate to change the subject when you're on a roll, but there is another issue that I've recently become aware of that I think GRNC might be able to address. I'm not trying to highjack this thread, and if we need to start another thread to address this issue, I'll gladly do that. But I want to throw this one out there, for your consideration.

It seems that a lot of Sheriffs are also putting extra "requirements" and charging VERY high fees for Handgun Purchase Permits here in NC. Under the State statute, there is no requirement that you have to be 21 to get an HPP--as long as you are legally allowed to possess a handgun (18 or over) there is no state prohibition on issuig an HPP to someone under 21. But many Sheriffs put a statement on their websites that you must be 21 or over to apply for an HPP. I've also found a few that require "letters of reference", which again is above and beyond the State requirements.

And also, I've been finding out (through going to various Sheriff's websites) that some sheriffs are charging a LOT more than the the $5 that the State statute says a HPP costs. For instance, Forsyth County Sheriff charges $55 for an HPP. How can they get away with that?

http://www.forsythsheriff.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=27&Itemid=91

I know that the HPP is NOT "shall issue" like the CHP, and I know that it is "discretionary" so Sheriffs can pretty much issue (or not issue) them however they see fit, but this age requirement and extremely high fee issue is really causing problems for some people.

Here in Beaufort Co., Sheriff Jordan follows State guidelines, and our HPPs are $5.

Is there anything that can be done about this? Can we pressure these Sheriffs to get in line with the State guidelines? Or is this something that needs to be addressed through the legislature?

Frankly, I find the HPP program to be an insult to all law-abiding citizens. It is a Jim Crow law that was put on the books immediately after the Civil War to prevent minorities and poor people from getting handguns to protect themselves, and it is an embarrassing remnant of the days of Jim Crow laws. I think that ALL the residents of NC should be outraged that such a discretionary law still exists...

Personally, I have a CHP, so I don't need to worry with HPPs any more, but that doesn't mean that it's not an issue . Many people can't afford a CHP, and I think that they still should be allowed to purchase handguns if they are legally eligible. Making people jump through all sorts of extra-statutory hoops, and charging these unreasonable fees is just adding insult to injury of this bad law, and it's discretionary nature.

Thanks in advance for your answer...
 

Dreamer

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Paul, back to the original topic...

I'm currently making a spreadsheet that lists all the NC counties, and includes the following info, for your reference, and for the reference of everyone here...

1. County Name
2. Sheriff Name
3. Do they have a website?
4. Does their website have HPP and CHP info?
5. Does their website have applications for download?
6. What are their fees for HPPs?
7. Require "references" for HPPs?
8. Age requirement of 18 or 21 for HPP?
9. Do they require references for CHP?

Can you think of any other fields that might be important or useful that I've left out?

I'm finding a lot of counties require references for CHPs, and are charging egregiously high fees for HPPs. Looks like it's going to be a busy summer for GRNC... ;)
 

FPV02

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Dreamer:

In terms of your sheriff database, I wouldn't bother to include references for CHPs: They won't be requiring them for much longer, because they can't. That's why Cabarrus immediately ran scared. As you note (and more on this below), the have considerable discretion in issuing purchase permits, so you might ask about char references, notarized affadavits, restrictions on number issued. On CHPs, do they require appointments to apply and how far ahead do those appointments need to be scheduled.

On purchase permits, you are mostly right: It is indeed a Jim Crow law designed to deny firearms to blacks, but dates to 1919, presumably passed in reaction to race riots in St. Louis the previous year. As you note, sheriffs can decline purchase permits for about any reason they like, all couched under deciding you are not of "good moral character." Not only is it archaic, but it is redundant, having been supplanted by NICS.

The problem here is the NC Sheriffs Association. Not only is their lobbyist, Eddie Caldwell, a weasel, they want the power of deciding who gets permits, which they justify on the basis that they have local knowledge. (As in, "I know Jimmy-John fights with his wife. He don't need no gun.") We had a bill in the hopper, introduced by Mark Hilton, but as with most of our bills it got no hearing and died. When it becomes possible, what needs to be done with G.S. 14-402 through 405is for it to be repealed.

[size=§ 14‑404. Issuance or refusal of permit; appeal from refusal; grounds for refusal; sheriff's fee.][/size]

[size=(a) Upon application, the sheriff shall issue the license or permit to a resident of that county, unless the purpose of the permit is for collecting, in which case a sheriff can issue a permit to a nonresident, when the sheriff has done all of the following:][/size]

[size=(1) Verified, before the issuance of a permit, by a criminal history background investigation that it is not a violation of State or federal law for the applicant to purchase, transfer, receive, or possess a handgun. The sheriff shall determine the criminal and background history of any applicant by accessing computerized criminal history records as maintained by the State Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, by conducting a national criminal history records check, by conducting a check through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and by conducting a criminal history check through the Administrative Office of the Courts.][/size]

[size=(2) Fully satisfied himself or herself by affidavits, oral evidence, or otherwise, as to the good moral character of the applicant.][/size]

[size=(3) Fully satisfied himself or herself that the applicant desires the possession of the weapon mentioned for (i) the protection of the home, business, person, family or property, (ii) target shooting, (iii) collecting, or (iv) hunting.][/size]

[size=(b) If the sheriff is not fully satisfied, the sheriff may, for good cause shown, decline to issue the license or permit and shall provide to the applicant within seven days of the refusal a written statement of the reason(s) for the refusal. An appeal from the refusal shall lie by way of petition to the chief judge of the district court for the district in which the application was filed. The determination by the court, on appeal, shall be upon the facts, the law, and the reasonableness of the sheriff's refusal, and shall be final.][/size]
 

Dreamer

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Another thing that varies WILDLY from county to county is the fee charged for HPPs. Some Sheriffs charge a flat $5 for each permit. Some charge as much as $55. Some (like Onslow Co) say on the form they charge $5, but there is an "additional fee for criminal background check", and in the case of Onslow, it is $25, bringing the total to $30.

I know for a fact that there are no fees assessed by the Feds for running NICS checks, and that access to the system does not have fees--the COMPLETE operating expenses of the NICS profram are covered by the FBI's operational budget on the Federal level. Granted there is a little time involved in running a check (about 5-10 minutes) but charging $20-50 to do 5 minutes of work seems a little egregious.

Why do some Sheriffs (and some private dealers) charge for NICS checks, but others don't? And is there any law or statute that regulates what people can charge for running NICS checks? (I can't find anything in the NC statutes or the US Code, so I assume that people can charge whatever they want to do a NICS check...)

I'm all for Sheriffs having control over the issuing of CHPs, but the wide variations and completely discretionary nature for the procedures of issuing HPPs is just bizarre, and bordering on a direct infringement of the US and NC Constitutional RKBA.

What can we do to help get this changes, standardized, or outright repealed?

The General Assembly is in session now--can we do anything this session, or at least get the ball rolling for next session?

Again, I remind you that I have a NC CHP, so I have no personal vested interest in the issues with HPPs. I just feel this is a bad law that needs to be repealed, or at least standardized...
 

FPV02

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Get me some proof on those.

Also under G.S. 14-404: [size=(e) The sheriff shall charge for the sheriff's services upon issuing the license or permit a fee of five dollars ($5.00).][/size]

[size=Not sure about criminal background check fees.][/size]
 

Dreamer

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Actually, for Onslow and Forsyth Counties, all you need to do is go to their websites. That should be all the proof you need--they say it right there in black an white:

http://www.forsythsheriff.org/information-mainmenu-85/firearm-permits-mainmenu-91/35-firearm-permits

http://sheriff.onslowcountync.gov/

I called the Onslow Co Sheriff today after downloading their HPP permit app (PDF file). The form says there is a $5 fee for the permit, but that there is "an additional charge for criminal background check". I asked them what that charge was, and they told me it was $25...

I'll work on getting the rest of the info for all 100 counties in the next few days. I've got about 1/4 of them done already...
 

mekender

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According to the site, the forsyth charge is for running the background for a CHP not for a HPP.
 

Dreamer

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Actually, if you look at BOTH pages for CHP and HPP, they have the same text, so I assume they just cut and pasted it and haven't edited the CHP yet. They've re-designed their entire site in the last month or so. In February, HHPs were listed as $49, and CHP's were the standard "going rate" for NC. So I'm assuming they've upped the HPP fees, but haven't edited the CHP page yet.

At least that's what I'm deducing. It would make sense for them to "up" their HPP fees, since they have a history of charging high fees for them, but I don't think they can lower the CHP fees, because that fee is codified in the State statutes...

I'll call them Tuesday and verify.
 

mekender

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Please do, I thought that the $5 HPP fee was also codified in state law.
 

FPV02

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Forsyth seems to have a complete C.F. going on. The link dreamer gives is for concealed handgun permits, not pistol purchase permits. You have to be careful not to confuse the two. But despite the assertions of the site, there are no "new procedures" for CHPs unless you count 1995 as "new." Moreover, the background check costs $80 (not $55) plus $10 for a CHP. I suppose I will have to call them.

Paul
 

TheFreeman

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Thanks for looking into these issues Paul. I'm surprised to see Cabarrus County jump off of that references boat so quickly, but I guess no one has ever really challenged them.
 

tsp45acp

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Great info. My CCW here in Guilford Co. expires in Oct. I'll be renewing soon. I'll be interested to see if the character references are included. they WERE included 5 yrs ago. We'll see if Sherrif BJ Barnes does the right thing. He seems like a stand up guy. But politics are politics. Thanks, Tracy in Greensboro.
 

FPV02

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Tagged Barnes on a non-compliance issue a couple of years back (can't remember what it was), but he backed off fast. Always remember: Power is intoxicating, both for LEOs and even moreso for politicians. A sheriff is both.
 
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