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Thread: Article from Sheboygan Press

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    Regular Member CUOfficer's Avatar
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    Thought this was worth posting. I am not sure that I agree with him biking around town carrying a rifle and a handgun, but apparently the local LEO do notmind. Wouldn't that be considered some type of "vehicle" transportation?

    http://www.sheboyganpress.com/articl...8/1973/SHE0201

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    if it is within the laws, and his right, then i have NO right to say otherwise (anti's take the hint).

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    CUOfficer wrote:
    Thought this was worth posting. I am not sure that I agree with him biking around town carrying a rifle and a handgun, but apparently the local LEO do notmind. Wouldn't that be considered some type of "vehicle" transportation?

    http://www.sheboyganpress.com/articl...8/1973/SHE0201
    SP wrote:
    “I think it alarms people,” Riffel said. “I fully realize that people have rights to openly carry exposed firearms … but people are also concerned, and depending on the situation we certainly are going to ascertain if people are legally able to have firearms and do some checking.”
    Seems like the chief is being reasonable...





    SP wrote:
    Online court records show Hubing has two disorderly conduct convictions, one of which is a 2007 case that was amended from a charge of intentionally pointing a firearm at a person. He also has a deferred conviction agreement pending on misdemeanor counts of disorderly conduct and resisting or obstructing an officer.
    Uh-oh. Sounds like a gun nut now...

    I don't trust this guy is a model of responsible gun carrier.



    SP wrote:
    Hubing said he harbors no ill will toward the people who reported him, but he also has no plans to stop carrying the guns.



    “I understand that concern. I’m probably like the only guy in Sheboygan County that open carries,” Hubing said. “What I’m doing is perfectly legal, so nothing against them. They can (complain) if they want to.”
    He's out for show....stay tuned...watch for more from this character...

    Guys like this are baddddd forthe rest of us.





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    I think there should be a week where everyone possible should carry guns while walking down the street. Lets bankrupt these departments and see if they are interested in harassing OCers any further.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Wow. He pointed a gun at someone and is still riding around with guns on him?

    On the bicycle carry I will have to rethink my position on open carry. In the past I wanted to but thought it was illegal. Perhaps it is legal to ride a bike while open carrying?

    We need to look into this more.
    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    rcawdor57 wrote:
    On the bicycle carry I will have to rethink my position on open carry. In the past I wanted to but thought it was illegal. Perhaps it is legal to ride a bike while open carrying?

    We need to look into this more.
    No need to look further...



    The problem is that it is not within all of the laws. Hopefully someone from the DNR does not read this article and send him a ticket in the mail..:?


    167.31 Safe use and transportation of firearms and bows. (1)
    DEFINITIONS. In this section: (h) “Vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (74),


    (2) PROHIBITIONS; MOTORBOATS AND VEHICLES; HIGHWAYS AND ROADWAYS. (b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded and encased or unless the bow or crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.


    340.01 Words and phrases defined:


    (74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains.


    Even your kid's Radio Flyer wagon is a vehicle if you sit in it with your openly carried handgun and have your wife pull you down the road...

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    Well obviously these police know how to read the statutes without reading to much into them. You have to understand how the statute was intended and IMHO it was intended for "MOTOR" vehicles. Obviously the police in Sheboygan feel the same way.

    Sometimes by reading to much into the statutes we can be our own worst enemy.

    Read the statutes for the letter of the law, do not assume, presume or over read them. The words in print are the letter of the law period.

    This is the second individual who was riding a bicycle while armed that was not charged.

    Racine and now Sheboygan. What does that tell you?

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:


    (74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains.



    Even your kid's Radio Flyer wagon is a vehicle if you sit in it with your openly carried handgun and have your wife pull you down the road...
    Where's the specific definition of "highway" in the statutes? A bicycle can't be ridden on the interstate for instance. So, where is does a street or road end and a highway begin?
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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    Interceptor_Knight wrote:


    (74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains.



    Even your kid's Radio Flyer wagon is a vehicle if you sit in it with your openly carried handgun and have your wife pull you down the road...
    Where's the specific definition of "highway" in the statutes? A bicycle can't be ridden on the interstate for instance. So, where is does a street or road end and a highway begin?
    Here is one definition that I am sure will link to multiple definitions under Wisconsin law:

    340.01(22)


    "Highway" means all public ways and thoroughfares and bridges on the same. It includes the entire width between the boundary lines of every way open to the use of the public as a matter of right for the purposes of vehicular travel. It includes those roads or driveways in the state, county or municipal parks and in state forests which have been opened to the use of the public for the purpose of vehicular travel and roads or driveways upon the grounds of public schools, as defined in s. 115.01 (1), and institutions under the jurisdiction of the county board of supervisors, but does not include private roads or driveways as defined in sub. (46).


    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    rcawdor57 wrote:
    Brass Magnet wrote:
    Interceptor_Knight wrote:



    (74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains.




    Even your kid's Radio Flyer wagon is a vehicle if you sit in it with your openly carried handgun and have your wife pull you down the road...
    Where's the specific definition of "highway" in the statutes? A bicycle can't be ridden on the interstate for instance. So, where is does a street or road end and a highway begin?
    Here is one definition that I am sure will link to multiple definitions under Wisconsin law:

    340.01(22)


    "Highway" means all public ways and thoroughfares and bridges on the same. It includes the entire width between the boundary lines of every way open to the use of the public as a matter of right for the purposes of vehicular travel. It includes those roads or driveways in the state, county or municipal parks and in state forests which have been opened to the use of the public for the purpose of vehicular travel and roads or driveways upon the grounds of public schools, as defined in s. 115.01 (1), and institutions under the jurisdiction of the county board of supervisors, but does not include private roads or driveways as defined in sub. (46).

    Hmmm...anything a "vehicle" can travel on and is open to the public is a highway? So, a "vehicle"is something that can be drivenon a"highway" but a "highway" isn't a highway unless a "vehicle" cantravel on it.

    Seems likethey arechasing their tails hereto me.
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    I hate to burst this guys bubble, but I open carry in Sheboygan County.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Dustiniac wrote:
    I hate to burst this guys bubble, but I open carry in Sheboygan County.
    Dustiniac, I think what is confusing is the manner of "open carry". Seems this guy was on a bicycle and never got arrested for it and is still doing it. There are a few other stories similar of people riding bicycles and not being arrested for open carrying in or on a "vehicle". I think that is what we have been trying to determine is "A bicycle considered a vehicle under the law?" If so, can we or can't we ride our bicycles while open carrying LEGALLY?

    Wisconsin laws are setup so we have to wade through tons of crap to figure out that one specific instance of legality that hasn't been outlawed yet by unpatriotic legislators.
    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Well obviously these police know how to read the statutes without reading to much into them. You have to understand how the statute was intended and IMHO it was intended for "MOTOR" vehicles. Obviously the police in Sheboygan feel the same way.
    We are back to administrative enforcement policy. If you will notice, I said "DNR" in my post. An urban police officer may not care about a bicycle, but the DNR cares about everything including a hay wagon even if it is not currently attached to anything. The only thing the current DNR adminsitrative enforcement policy will allow you to hunt from is horse back. No trailers, wagons, bicycles, etc....

    By the same token, the DNR may not care about a handgun next to you on the seat of your car/truck if it is encased, but a Milwaukee city Police Officer may consider it concealed.

    If you take time to read the statutes which include the definitions, you will find that "motor vehicle" is treated seperately than "vehicle". Some things apply only to motor vehicles and some things apply to all "vehicles". WI Statute 167.31 and Open carry applies to all vehicles. Fortunately for us, urban police departments are not enforcing it broadly towards all things which are encompassed by the broad definition of a "vehicle".



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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    Well obviously these police know how to read the statutes without reading to much into them. You have to understand how the statute was intended and IMHO it was intended for "MOTOR" vehicles. Obviously the police in Sheboygan feel the same way.
    We are back to administrative enforcement policy. If you will notice, I said "DNR" in my post. An urban police officer may not care about a bicycle, but the DNR cares about everything including a hay wagon even if it is not currently attached to anything. The only thing the current DNR adminsitrative enforcement policy will allow you to hunt from is horse back. No trailers, wagons, bicycles, etc....

    By the same token, the DNR may not care about a handgun next to you on the seat of your car/truck if it is encased, but a Milwaukee city Police Officer may consider it concealed.

    If you take time to read the statutes which include the definitions, you will find that "motor vehicle" is treated seperately than "vehicle". Some things apply only to motor vehicles and some things apply to all "vehicles". WI Statute 167.31 and Open carry applies to all vehicles. Fortunately for us, urban police departments are not enforcing it broadly towards all things which are encompassed by the broad definition of a "vehicle".

    Doesn't matter, A citation is issued at the officer's discretion, whether it is a police officer or a DNR officer. It is all in how you interpret the statute.

    DO NOT OVER READ.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Doesn't matter, A citation is issued at the officer's discretion, whether it is a police officer or a DNR officer. It is all in how you interpret the statute.
    We both agree that it is officer's discretion. The difference is that I recognize the fact that you could be issued a citation andbe convicted. There is no interpretation gray area, only discretion, as the definition is very clear when it states "every device".

    In these same urban areas, a GFSZ violation would be almost certain if you traveled any distance on your bicycle. There again we come to officer discretion if you will be cited.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    Doesn't matter, A citation is issued at the officer's discretion, whether it is a police officer or a DNR officer. It is all in how you interpret the statute.
    We both agree that it is officer's discretion. The difference is that I recognize the fact that you could be issued a citation andbe convicted. There is no interpretation gray area, only discretion, as the definition is very clear when it states "every device".

    In these same urban areas, a GFSZ violation would be almost certain if you traveled any distance on your bicycle. There again we come to officer discretion if you will be cited.
    Would you consider "every device" the shoes on your feet? Crazy but who knows? They are "devices".
    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    rcawdor57 wrote:
    Would you consider "every device" the shoes on your feet? Crazy but who knows? They are "devices".
    Only if you have size100 shoes, you can sit inside one and they have 4 wheels. The same would apply for a size100 roller skate. It must be a device which can be drawn upon or driven on a highway.

    Back to reality and administrative policy. The DNR looks at everything with wheels. If you take a flat hay wagon and pull a couple of wheels off of it, it can not be drawn upon the highway in that condition. For administrative enforcement purposes it is not considered a vehicle so long as it remains in that condition.

    Anyone who has taken hunters' safety should be aware of this scenerio. If not, then maybe you need refresher training....

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    I would like to see the look on the face of the judge when you go into court because you were issued a citation for OCing in your radio flyer.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    rcawdor57 wrote:
    Would you consider "every device" the shoes on your feet? Crazy but who knows? They are "devices".
    Only if you have size100 shoes, you can sit inside one and they have 4 wheels. The same would apply for a size100 roller skate. It must be a device which can be drawn upon or driven on a highway.

    Back to reality and administrative policy. The DNR looks at everything with wheels. If you take a flat hay wagon and pull a couple of wheels off of it, it can not be drawn upon the highway in that condition. For administrative enforcement purposes it is not considered a vehicle so long as it remains in that condition.

    Anyone who has taken hunters' safety should be aware of this scenerio. If not, then maybe you need refresher training....
    LOL!

    I remember the wagon issue. Heck, IIRC the DNR even has that Radio Flyer wagon scenario in the regs as illegal. Wow, the laws in Wisconsin are so bad.
    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    I would like to see the look on the face of the judge when you go into court because you were issued a citation for OCing in your radio flyer.

    What is even better would be the look on my wife's face when I asked her to pull me down the street on my Radio Flyer while I am OCing...

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    rcawdor57 wrote:
    LOL!

    I remember the wagon issue. Heck, IIRC the DNR even has that Radio Flyer wagon scenario in the regs as illegal. Wow, the laws in Wisconsin are so bad.




    http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/faq/blinds/Q1.htm


    I want to use something with wheels as a hunting blind, is this legal?
    It is illegal to possess a loaded or uncased firearm or bow in a vehicle or to shoot from a vehicle; therefore, it is illegal to use a vehicle as a hunting blind or stand, unless you are a disabled hunter with the appropriate permit. Vehicle means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway or other roadway. However, if you render a blind or stand with wheels incapable of transportation- remove one or more wheels from a hay wagon or put a car without a motor up on blocks, for instance, it would no longer be considered a “vehicle” and could then be used as a blind or stand.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    I would like to see the look on the face of the judge when you go into court because you were issued a citation for OCing in your radio flyer.

    What is even better would be the look on my wife's face when I asked her to pull me down the street on my Radio Flyer while I am OCing...
    You can also be arrested if you are open carrying while in a wheel chair or other "assisted mobility" device. I am doing yard work right now so I won't go dig out the statute but they are also considered "vehicles". Sad, sad, sad.


    Edited to add: So what if you are disabled let's say from knee surgery and you hobble into Wally World and hop on one of those electric shopping carts and cruise through the store while open carrying? Illegal?
    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    rcawdor57 wrote:
    You can also be arrested if you are open carrying while in a wheel chair or other "assisted mobility" device. I am doing yard work right now so I won't go dig out the statute but they are also considered "vehicles". Sad, sad, sad.


    Edited to add: So what if you are disabled let's say from knee surgery and you hobble into Wally World and hop on one of those electric shopping carts and cruise through the store while open carrying? Illegal?
    If you are in a conventional wheel chair, you may be good to go. I don't think that any prosecutor would wish to face the immenant fecal storm which would occur should they attempt to charge. It is a reasonable expectation toexpect administrative enforcement policy to exempt wheel chairs. The statute only specifically calls out powered wheel chairs

    electric personal assistive mobility device.
    Electric shopping carts are clearly prohibited from being used as they clearly fit the definition of vehicle.



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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    rcawdor57 wrote:
    You can also be arrested if you are open carrying while in a wheel chair or other "assisted mobility" device. I am doing yard work right now so I won't go dig out the statute but they are also considered "vehicles". Sad, sad, sad.


    Edited to add: So what if you are disabled let's say from knee surgery and you hobble into Wally World and hop on one of those electric shopping carts and cruise through the store while open carrying? Illegal?
    If you are in a conventional wheel chair, you may be good to go as you are not able to walk without one. The statute only specifically calls out powered wheel chairs

    electric personal assistive mobility device.
    Electric shopping carts are clearly prohibited from being used as they clearly fit the definition of vehicle.

    Isn't that just nuts? Imagine if you were a war veteran without any legs and you used an electric wheelchair to get around. Even in your own home you could not have your firearm with you. That is nuts!

    What idjuts wrote these laws?
    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    rcawdor57 wrote:
    Isn't that just nuts? Imagine if you were a war veteran without any legs and you used an electric wheelchair to get around. Even in your own home you could not have your firearm with you. That is nuts!

    What idjuts wrote these laws?
    It goes back to enforcement. In a perfect world, we would have exceptions for common sense things. As it stands we must rely on intelligentselective enforcement and adefense of using the State Constitution which affirms our right to bear arms and therefore makes our interest in defending ourselves outweight the State's interest in prosecuting such as in CCW citations.

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