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Thread: Obeying the laws - Still consequences!!!

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    Regular Member FedFirefighter's Avatar
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    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.

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    FedFirefighter wrote:
    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.
    You nailed it.

    I lost my handgun carry permit due to open carry. I have an extremely thick file at several local police agencies, Tennessee Bureau of Investigations, BATFE, Homeland Security and the FBI. The ATF denied my purchase of a silencer on Monday due to this. I've not broken any law and never been arrested or charged with a crime.I served honorably in the military.When someone tells me we are free I laugh.

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    This was a problem in PA, cops saying that you cant OC etc. Well after a while and a few lawsuits later... The police had an updated MPOETC course(Municipal police officers education and training ) that basically told them among other things that OC is legal and they cant do a DAMN thing about it unless that person is engaged in a criminal act. Its a shame that some other states havent done something similar.

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    Regular Member FedFirefighter's Avatar
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    That would be great if LE agencies did something like that, but like you said, without lawsuits it'll never happen. I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)

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    FedFirefighter wrote:
    That would be great if LE agencies did something like that, but like you said, without lawsuits it'll never happen. I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)
    You should be able to find a good pro-gun attorney that would be more than happy to file a civil case against a LEA on contingency. Just make sure you have all YOUR ducks in a row. (voice recordings/witnesses, etc.)

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    That would be great if LE agencies did something like that, but like you said, without lawsuits it'll never happen. I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)
    You should be able to find a good pro-gun attorney that would be more than happy to file a civil case against a LEA on contingency. Just make sure you have all YOUR ducks in a row. (voice recordings/witnesses, etc.)
    Make sure you inform Task Force 16. He'll even go out of his way to inform law enforcement of your activity. If you want more information on this "tattle tell" PM me and I'll forward information I received from from a public information request. Task Force 16 from lobelville likes to email law enforcement about people on this forum.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    That would be great if LE agencies did something like that, but like you said, without lawsuits it'll never happen. I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)
    You should be able to find a good pro-gun attorney that would be more than happy to file a civil case against a LEA on contingency. Just make sure you have all YOUR ducks in a row. (voice recordings/witnesses, etc.)
    Make sure you inform Task Force 16. He'll even go out of his way to inform law enforcement of your activity. If you want more information on this "tattle tell" PM me and I'll forward information I received from from a public information request. Task Force 16 from lobelville likes to email law enforcement about people on this forum.
    I have no idea what TF16 did (or even if he has done anything). But, I can see what you are doing in the above post--and your actions in that post are despicable.

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    eye95 wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    That would be great if LE agencies did something like that, but like you said, without lawsuits it'll never happen. I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)
    You should be able to find a good pro-gun attorney that would be more than happy to file a civil case against a LEA on contingency. Just make sure you have all YOUR ducks in a row. (voice recordings/witnesses, etc.)
    Make sure you inform Task Force 16. He'll even go out of his way to inform law enforcement of your activity. If you want more information on this "tattle tell" PM me and I'll forward information I received from from a public information request. Task Force 16 from lobelville likes to email law enforcement about people on this forum.
    I have no idea what TF16 did (or even if he has done anything). But, I can see what you are doing in the above post--and your actions in that post are despicable.
    I have proof that Task Force 16 informs law enforcement of posts on this forum.

    Jerry W. Morris, jwmorris1@tds.net from Lobelville Tennessee , Nra member and member of OCDO can tell police what he wants. However, the forum should be made aware of it.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    That would be great if LE agencies did something like that, but like you said, without lawsuits it'll never happen. I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)
    You should be able to find a good pro-gun attorney that would be more than happy to file a civil case against a LEA on contingency. Just make sure you have all YOUR ducks in a row. (voice recordings/witnesses, etc.)
    Make sure you inform Task Force 16. He'll even go out of his way to inform law enforcement of your activity. If you want more information on this "tattle tell" PM me and I'll forward information I received from from a public information request. Task Force 16 from lobelville likes to email law enforcement about people on this forum.
    I have no idea what TF16 did (or even if he has done anything). But, I can see what you are doing in the above post--and your actions in that post are despicable.
    I have proof that Task Force 16 informs law enforcement of posts on this forum.

    [personal info deleted], [personal info deleted] from Lobelville Tennessee , Nra member and member of OCDO can tell police what he wants. However, the forum should be made aware of it.
    If you feel that a member is behaving inappropriately on this forum, notify the owners. Your personal problems with another poster are of no concern to others.

    I would point out that if I were one of the owners, I'd ban you for posting private information (name and email address) about another poster.

    Edited to remove personal information in quote. I won't be a party to such despicable behavior.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    That would be great if LE agencies did something like that, but like you said, without lawsuits it'll never happen. I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)
    You should be able to find a good pro-gun attorney that would be more than happy to file a civil case against a LEA on contingency. Just make sure you have all YOUR ducks in a row. (voice recordings/witnesses, etc.)
    Make sure you inform Task Force 16. He'll even go out of his way to inform law enforcement of your activity. If you want more information on this "tattle tell" PM me and I'll forward information I received from from a public information request. Task Force 16 from lobelville likes to email law enforcement about people on this forum.
    I have no idea what TF16 did (or even if he has done anything). But, I can see what you are doing in the above post--and your actions in that post are despicable.
    I have proof that Task Force 16 informs law enforcement of posts on this forum.

    Jerry W. Morris, jwmorris1@tds.net from Lobelville Tennessee , Nra member and member of OCDO can tell police what he wants. However, the forum should be made aware of it.
    As of April 1 of this year, there were over 281,000 HCP hoilders in the State of Tennessee. You seem to be the only one we know of that has been having problems with LE. Problems you have intentionally instigated yourself.

    I'm sure there is a clenical term in psychology for some one like you, kwik. I just don't know what it is. I have known other people like yourself that are not happy unless they are smack in the middle of some sort of contravercial confrontation. They, as you have, will instigate problems where none exist just to feed whatever self serving desire they suffer from. And then bitch about it when it bites them on the butt, as you are doing. You are no more innocent of bringingproblems upon yourself than I am of being an old white guy.

    Yeah, I gave the Davidson County Sheriff the heads up on your plan. I also let John and Mike know that I did so and why. It's not like I violated any code of secrecy here ya know. You DID post your plans on a PUBLIC fourm that ANYONE with a computer and Internet connection can read. That includes City PD's, County Sheriff's dept, State police, FBI, CIA, DHS, Interpol, etc., as well as the attorneies that will be defending the park rangers, BMPD LEO's and the City of Belle Meade and any other entitiies you file a law suit against. I suspect you have posted enough crap on the Internet for thedefendant attornies to rip you several new buttholes in a court of law.

    This forum in monitored world wide. If you think you can post anything here in secrecy, your a bigger idiot than anyone has given you credit for.

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    steveinNEPA wrote:
    This was a problem in PA, cops saying that you cant OC etc. Well after a while and a few lawsuits later... The police had an updated MPOETC course (Municipal police officers education and training ) that basically told them among other things that OC is legal and they cant do a DAMN thing about it unless that person is engaged in a criminal act. Its a shame that some other states havent done something similar.
    What it took in Pennsylvania to get statewide notification and training to all law enforcement agencies that open carry was legal was a massive letter-writing campaign from all corners of the Commonwealth. We wrote to our elected representatives, we wrote to the state police commissioner, we wrote to each and every member of the board that comes up with the annual training topics.

    It took time. It took a lot of people writing a lot of letters. It can be done elsewhere.

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    Regular Member RussP's Avatar
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    FedFirefighter wrote:
    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.
    I live in an open carry friendly state and have had many interactions with law enforcement in the six years I've been open carrying. All were good experiences.

    "...you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen" indicates you have a negative attitude toward law enforcement. Is that the usual firefighters vs. cops thing, or are there underlying causes for the statement? Have you already been threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL?

    Is your question, "Is there anything you can do to avoid law enforcement encounters?"

    Or, is it, "Are there things you can do to minimize the risk of negative reactions from law enforcement?"

    As was said about Pennsylvania, education is all important. Here in Virginia efforts by staff and members of VCDL got the message across to several LE agencies, State and local governments all over Virginia.


    Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

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    RussP wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.
    I live in an open carry friendly state and have had many interactions with law enforcement in the six years I've been open carrying. All were good experiences.

    "...you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen" indicates you have a negative attitude toward law enforcement. Is that the usual firefighters vs. cops thing, or are there underlying causes for the statement? Have you already been threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL?

    Is your question, "Is there anything you can do to avoid law enforcement encounters?"

    Or, is it, "Are there things you can do to minimize the risk of negative reactions from law enforcement?"

    As was said about Pennsylvania, education is all important. Here in Virginia efforts by staff and members of VCDL got the message across to several LE agencies, State and local governments all over Virginia.

    I am not trying to answer for FFF, but having had an unfortunate run-in with an Alabama LEO, I'll answer the question for myself.

    Some LEOs (not all) do expect you to conceal "like a good little citizen." I was flatly told that I should by two LEOs (a CPL and a LT COL) and that that was the only way to avoid being hassled by LEOs.

    Fortunately, MPD now officially recognizes that OC is legal. That's no guarantee that some other LEO won't stop me in the hope of convincing me to conceal "like a good little citizen."

    I was not present at the incident in Dothan, however, it reeks of a plainclothes LEO and a LT both thinking that LAC's should conceal and planning to hassle any who do not.

    Our primary goal in Alabama should be to educate LEAs on the law regarding OC and to pursue legal action against those LEAs and LEOs (and there are many) who will not accept the law as it is.

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    It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.

    Civil lawsuits tend to get people's attention pretty quick and don't take a huge bank account.

    When someone tells me we are free I laugh.

    It is a pretty good joke, huh. No man is more hopelessly enslaved than the man who thinks he is free.

    Its a shame that some other states havent done something similar.


    Well they probably haven't been sued enough yet.

    I would love to be the one to bring that one, just not financially feasable. (Pro-Bono?)

    No, no the word is pro-se not pro bono. Screw using a lawyer and do it yourself.

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    I've OCed for many years and I had one LEO who had a huge problem with me OCing, even though he knew it was legal to do so. I help a lot of people with car problems, accidents, etc. It can make one a bit nervous when you walk up to a car.

    That is why I went from just a pistol in an ankle holster to OCing. I explained to the officer that if I saw someone pulling a gun on me, I would be dead before I could get my hand on my pistol. I could tell it was an ego thing with him. Such as: Only cops should carry openly.

    I kept up my OC and the officer was later fired. The firing was based on how he treated the public. I don't miss him!

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL?Â* It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.Â*
    You nailed it.

    I lost my handgun carry permit due to open carry. I have an extremely thick file at several local police agencies, Tennessee Bureau of
    Investigations, BATFE, Homeland Security and the FBI. The ATF denied my purchase of a silencer on Monday due to this. I've not broken any law and never been arrested or charged with a crime.Â*I served honorably in the military.Â*When someone tells me we are free I laugh.


    Was OC legal when you OCed?

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL?Â* It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.Â*
    You nailed it.

    I lost my handgun carry permit due to open carry. I have an extremely thick file at several local police agencies, Tennessee Bureau of
    Investigations, BATFE, Homeland Security and the FBI. The ATF denied
    my purchase of a silencer on Monday due to this. I've not broken any law and never been arrested or charged with a crime.Â*I served honorably in the military.Â*When someone tells me we are free I laugh.

    Was OC legal when you OCed? I've noticed that you mention how many agencies have big files on you, etc. I get the impression that you are proud of this.

    If you have never been arrested, why is LE watching you so close - IF they really are? And, how do you know the agencies that have these files on you?

    Something doesn't compute on my end. If I had all that LE looking at me, I would first of all, want to know why.

    Sorry I went off topic, but this has me confused.

  18. #18
    Regular Member FedFirefighter's Avatar
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    No, I don't have any beef at all with LEO's, I respect their job and personally wouldn't want it. All I want is them to correctly know the laws, or least be open minded and do some checking with supervisors before trying to push their opinions on a LAC. I would much rather have cops educated, then leave me alone, than mess with a lawsuit. But, I have tried that, talking to several high ranking LEO's, and they keep clinging to -52 and WILL NOT listen to what I could show them. And yes, our sheriff has said he will pull the permit on anyone caught OC'ing. Thats where it can be very frustrating.

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    FedFirefighter wrote:
    No, I don't have any beef at all with LEO's, I respect their job and personally wouldn't want it. All I want is them to correctly know the laws, or least be open minded and do some checking with supervisors before trying to push their opinions on a LAC. I would much rather have cops educated, then leave me alone, than mess with a lawsuit. But, I have tried that, talking to several high ranking LEO's, and they keep clinging to -52 and WILL NOT listen to what I could show them. And yes, our sheriff has said he will pull the permit on anyone caught OC'ing. Thats where it can be very frustrating.
    This is why the repeal of -52 must be our top priority--not because it prohibits OC, but because it provides the cover of confusion for those LEOs who choose not to learn what they law (including court decisions) says.

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    FedFirefighter wrote:
    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.
    If you live in a state where you live in fear of illegal police action you have three courses of action. 1) Accept it. 2) Move 3) Become an activist.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    As of April 1 of this year, there were over 281,000 HCP hoilders in the State of Tennessee. You seem to be the only one we know of that has been having problems with LE. Problems you have intentionally instigated yourself.

    I'm sure there is a clenical term in psychology for some one like you, kwik. I just don't know what it is. I have known other people like yourself that are not happy unless they are smack in the middle of some sort of contravercial confrontation. They, as you have, will instigate problems where none exist just to feed whatever self serving desire they suffer from. And then bitch about it when it bites them on the butt, as you are doing. You are no more innocent of bringingproblems upon yourself than I am of being an old white guy.

    Yeah, I gave the Davidson County Sheriff the heads up on your plan. I also let John and Mike know that I did so and why. It's not like I violated any code of secrecy here ya know. You DID post your plans on a PUBLIC fourm that ANYONE with a computer and Internet connection can read. That includes City PD's, County Sheriff's dept, State police, FBI, CIA, DHS, Interpol, etc., as well as the attorneies that will be defending the park rangers, BMPD LEO's and the City of Belle Meade and any other entitiies you file a law suit against. I suspect you have posted enough crap on the Internet for thedefendant attornies to rip you several new buttholes in a court of law.

    This forum in monitored world wide. If you think you can post anything here in secrecy, your a bigger idiot than anyone has given you credit for.
    Task Force 16 you are certainly a quisling. This is a web site for activists. I recommend you go to the MMM website. You will find things there more to your liking.



    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Sad that anyone has that sort of consequences. Here in AZ, the most inconvenience you're likely to come across is that the LEO will want to talk guns for a while before cutting you loose. Not a bad thing unless you're in a hurry to get somewhere.

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    FedFirefighter wrote:
    No, I don't have any beef at all with LEO's, I respect their job and personally wouldn't want it. All I want is them to correctly know the laws, or least be open minded and do some checking with supervisors before trying to push their opinions on a LAC. I would much rather have cops educated, then leave me alone, than mess with a lawsuit. But, I have tried that, talking to several high ranking LEO's, and they keep clinging to -52 and WILL NOT listen to what I could show them. And yes, our sheriff has said he will pull the permit on anyone caught OC'ing. Thats where it can be very frustrating.
    Sounds like you have some campaigning to do (to get the Sheriff voted out). You should remind the good ELECTED Sheriff that his primary job is to DEFEND the RIGHTS of the citizenry, not usurp them.
    He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. -- Thomas Paine (1737--1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

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    eye95 wrote:
    RussP wrote:
    FedFirefighter wrote:
    I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.
    I live in an open carry friendly state and have had many interactions with law enforcement in the six years I've been open carrying. All were good experiences.

    "...you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen" indicates you have a negative attitude toward law enforcement. Is that the usual firefighters vs. cops thing, or are there underlying causes for the statement? Have you already been threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL?

    Is your question, "Is there anything you can do to avoid law enforcement encounters?"

    Or, is it, "Are there things you can do to minimize the risk of negative reactions from law enforcement?"

    As was said about Pennsylvania, education is all important. Here in Virginia efforts by staff and members of VCDL got the message across to several LE agencies, State and local governments all over Virginia.

    I am not trying to answer for FFF, but having had an unfortunate run-in with an Alabama LEO, I'll answer the question for myself.

    Some LEOs (not all) do expect you to conceal "like a good little citizen." I was flatly told that I should by two LEOs (a CPL and a LT COL) and that that was the only way to avoid being hassled by LEOs.

    Fortunately, MPD now officially recognizes that OC is legal. That's no guarantee that some other LEO won't stop me in the hope of convincing me to conceal "like a good little citizen."

    I was not present at the incident in Dothan, however, it reeks of a plainclothes LEO and a LT both thinking that LAC's should conceal and planning to hassle any who do not.

    Our primary goal in Alabama should be to educate LEAs on the law regarding OC and to pursue legal action against those LEAs and LEOs (and there are many) who will not accept the law as it is.
    The police are not your friends. I have personally had bad experiences with cops while concealed carrying and none while OCing. In fact I have had cops ask me about the type and stuff like that, but I never talk to them unless I am sure they are not interested in arresting me. But in a town where cops are raping hookers and tazing college students left and right I don't take my chances too often.

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    TheHossUSMC wrote:
    The police are not your friends. I have personally had bad experiences with cops while concealed carrying and none while OCing. In fact I have had cops ask me about the type and stuff like that, but I never talk to them unless I am sure they are not interested in arresting me. But in a town where cops are raping hookers and tazing college students left and right I don't take my chances too often.
    I really dislike the bolded part. It is overbroad and insulting. Most LEOs are nice guys. The one who stopped me and the LT COL were genuinely polite and friendly. They were just wrong. If they were more a part of my life, I could easily call them friends, even though I disagree with them on OC.

    Even the Dothan officers, based on Diagnosis' story, seemed to be nice enough and just doing what they incorrectly thought was their jobs, with the exception of two of them.

    Yeah, there are some jerks in uniform. You run into jerks everywhere. I just don't like folks painting police with a broad brush. It think that a more accurate statement would be that the police exist to deal with BGs. Therefore, they tend to operate in an adversarial mode until they are satisfied that they are not dealing with a BG. This means that, unless they are fully and correctly trained, they will ignorantly step on your rights, so it is your responsibility to know them and to exercise them.

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