Obeying the laws - Still consequences!!!

Thundar · May 26, 2010

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Task Force 16 wrote:

As of April 1 of this year, there were over 281,000 HCP hoilders in the State of Tennessee. You seem to be the only one we know of that has been having problems with LE. Problems you have intentionally instigated yourself.

I'm sure there is a clenical term in psychology for some one like you, kwik. I just don't know what it is. I have known other people like yourself that are not happy unless they are smack in the middle of some sort of contravercial confrontation. They, as you have, will instigate problems where none exist just to feed whatever self serving desire they suffer from. And then bitch about it when it bites them on the butt, as you are doing. You are no more innocent of bringingproblems upon yourself than I am of being an old white guy.

Yeah, I gave the Davidson County Sheriff the heads up on your plan. I also let John and Mike know that I did so and why. It's not like I violated any code of secrecy here ya know. You DID post your plans on a PUBLIC fourm that ANYONE with a computer and Internet connection can read. That includes City PD's, County Sheriff's dept, State police, FBI, CIA, DHS, Interpol, etc., as well as the attorneies that will be defending the park rangers, BMPD LEO's and the City of Belle Meade and any other entitiies you file a law suit against. I suspect you have posted enough crap on the Internet for thedefendant attornies to rip you several new buttholes in a court of law.

This forum in monitored world wide. If you think you can post anything here in secrecy, your a bigger idiot than anyone has given you credit for.

Task Force 16 you are certainly a quisling. This is a web site for activists. I recommend you go to the MMM website. You will find things there more to your liking.

Dahwg · May 26, 2010

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Sad that anyone has that sort of consequences. Here in AZ, the most inconvenience you're likely to come across is that the LEO will want to talk guns for a while before cutting you loose. Not a bad thing unless you're in a hurry to get somewhere.

Thos.Jefferson · May 26, 2010

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FedFirefighter wrote:

No, I don't have any beef at all with LEO's, I respect their job and personally wouldn't want it. All I want is them to correctly know the laws, or least be open minded and do some checking with supervisors before trying to push their opinions on a LAC. I would much rather have cops educated, then leave me alone, than mess with a lawsuit. But, I have tried that, talking to several high ranking LEO's, and they keep clinging to -52 and WILL NOT listen to what I could show them. And yes, our sheriff has said he will pull the permit on anyone caught OC'ing. Thats where it can be very frustrating.

Sounds like you have some campaigning to do (to get the Sheriff voted out). You should remind the good ELECTED Sheriff that his primary job is to DEFEND the RIGHTS of the citizenry, not usurp them.

TheHossUSMC · May 27, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

RussP wrote:

FedFirefighter wrote:

I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.

Click to expand...

I live in an open carry friendly state and have had many interactions with law enforcement in the six years I've been open carrying. All were good experiences.

"...you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen" indicates you have a negative attitude toward law enforcement. Is that the usual firefighters vs. cops thing, or are there underlying causes for the statement? Have you already been threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL?

Is your question, "Is there anything you can do to avoid law enforcement encounters?"

Or, is it, "Are there things you can do to minimize the risk of negative reactions from law enforcement?"

As was said about Pennsylvania, education is all important. Here in Virginia efforts by staff and members of VCDL got the message across to several LE agencies, State and local governments all over Virginia.

Click to expand...

I am not trying to answer for FFF, but having had an unfortunate run-in with an Alabama LEO, I'll answer the question for myself.

Some LEOs (not all) do expect you to conceal "like a good little citizen." I was flatly told that I should by two LEOs (a CPL and a LT COL) and that that was the only way to avoid being hassled by LEOs.

Fortunately, MPD now officially recognizes that OC is legal. That's no guarantee that some other LEO won't stop me in the hope of convincing me to conceal "like a good little citizen."

I was not present at the incident in Dothan, however, it reeks of a plainclothes LEO and a LT both thinking that LAC's should conceal and planning to hassle any who do not.

Our primary goal in Alabama should be to educate LEAs on the law regarding OC and to pursue legal action against those LEAs and LEOs (and there are many) who will not accept the law as it is.

The police are not your friends. I have personally had bad experiences with cops while concealed carrying and none while OCing. In fact I have had cops ask me about the type and stuff like that, but I never talk to them unless I am sure they are not interested in arresting me. But in a town where cops are raping hookers and tazing college students left and right I don't take my chances too often.

eye95 · May 27, 2010

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TheHossUSMC wrote:

The police are not your friends. I have personally had bad experiences with cops while concealed carrying and none while OCing. In fact I have had cops ask me about the type and stuff like that, but I never talk to them unless I am sure they are not interested in arresting me. But in a town where cops are raping hookers and tazing college students left and right I don't take my chances too often.

I really dislike the bolded part. It is overbroad and insulting. Most LEOs are nice guys. The one who stopped me and the LT COL were genuinely polite and friendly. They were just wrong. If they were more a part of my life, I could easily call them friends, even though I disagree with them on OC.

Even the Dothan officers, based on Diagnosis' story, seemed to be nice enough and just doing what they incorrectly thought was their jobs, with the exception of two of them.

Yeah, there are some jerks in uniform. You run into jerks everywhere. I just don't like folks painting police with a broad brush. It think that a more accurate statement would be that the police exist to deal with BGs. Therefore, they tend to operate in an adversarial mode until they are satisfied that they are not dealing with a BG. This means that, unless they are fully and correctly trained, they will ignorantly step on your rights, so it is your responsibility to know them and to exercise them.

cscitney87 · May 27, 2010

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Yup there are jerks in Every single profession worldwide. It's no wonder they turn up in law enforcement as well. Same with gays, latinos, blacks, reds, and purples. They're already here, jerks and all- it's acceptable.

OC is just another stigma. Remember that. Stopped for being black? Not likely. Stopped for being black and OC? Likely.

Stigmas.. there are so many "things" to pick on and pick out about people it's stupid. OC? Poor? Rich snob? Race? Mental capacity? Hell how many people get ripped on for poor spelling?

Making life great is about realizing all humans are to be respected equally. You can't control others, but if you want to try that's your thing.

Getting in trouble Just For obeying the laws and not committing crime... that's prejudice. Like a social phase of racism of native Americans or African Americans or Irish Americans or Jewish Americans.. It's another form of prejudice.

I think we're doing the best we can in stomping out OC prejudice among law enforcement and civilians alike. That's what this website is about; normalizing OC. We are removing the stigma. Removing the prejudice.

We ARE on the Front Line.

TheHossUSMC · May 27, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

TheHossUSMC wrote:

The police are not your friends. I have personally had bad experiences with cops while concealed carrying and none while OCing. In fact I have had cops ask me about the type and stuff like that, but I never talk to them unless I am sure they are not interested in arresting me. But in a town where cops are raping hookers and tazing college students left and right I don't take my chances too often.

Click to expand...

I really dislike the bolded part. It is overbroad and insulting. Most LEOs are nice guys. The one who stopped me and the LT COL were genuinely polite and friendly. They were just wrong. If they were more a part of my life, I could easily call them friends, even though I disagree with them on OC.

Even the Dothan officers, based on Diagnosis' story, seemed to be nice enough and just doing what they incorrectly thought was their jobs, with the exception of two of them.

Yeah, there are some jerks in uniform. You run into jerks everywhere. I just don't like folks painting police with a broad brush. It think that a more accurate statement would be that the police exist to deal with BGs. Therefore, they tend to operate in an adversarial mode until they are satisfied that they are not dealing with a BG. This means that, unless they are fully and correctly trained, they will ignorantly step on your rights, so it is your responsibility to know them and to exercise them.

I wasn't insulting them. I have friends that are police officers, but police officers are not your friends. They have a job to do and increasingly it's to encroach on your 4th and 2nd amendment rights. And saying that most LEOs are nice guys is pretty broad as well, and I think in some cases can be true but not where I'm from. I have a very close friend that is a police officer and he would be the first one to say that the officers around here are on a power trip.

My point is that if the cops approach you it is to ascertain whether or not you are breaking a law. They have every right to trick you, lie to you and detain you for no good reason. The flaw is that our public servants/ peace officers are becoming law enforcement officers. I had a three cops come up to me for a MWAG call. I was in a city park drawing with chalk on the ground with children and they never addressed me as sir or were polite in any way and then proceeded to read me the riot act for letting my CCW print. I WAS DRAWING WITH CHALK. This is a very mild case of the trend I'm talking about, but every few years here there is some cop in the news going to prison or being fired for raping hookers, tazing exchange students in their bedrooms, randomly stopping people and spraying them down with pepper spray. They need an attitude adjustment and to realize that it is not an US and Them senario but that they serve at the pleasure of the people and should be respected as such.

eye95 · May 27, 2010

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TheHossUSMC wrote:

eye95 wrote:

TheHossUSMC wrote:

The police are not your friends. I have personally had bad experiences with cops while concealed carrying and none while OCing. In fact I have had cops ask me about the type and stuff like that, but I never talk to them unless I am sure they are not interested in arresting me. But in a town where cops are raping hookers and tazing college students left and right I don't take my chances too often.

Click to expand...

I really dislike the bolded part. It is overbroad and insulting. Most LEOs are nice guys. The one who stopped me and the LT COL were genuinely polite and friendly. They were just wrong. If they were more a part of my life, I could easily call them friends, even though I disagree with them on OC.

Even the Dothan officers, based on Diagnosis' story, seemed to be nice enough and just doing what they incorrectly thought was their jobs, with the exception of two of them.

Yeah, there are some jerks in uniform. You run into jerks everywhere. I just don't like folks painting police with a broad brush. It think that a more accurate statement would be that the police exist to deal with BGs. Therefore, they tend to operate in an adversarial mode until they are satisfied that they are not dealing with a BG. This means that, unless they are fully and correctly trained, they will ignorantly step on your rights, so it is your responsibility to know them and to exercise them.

Click to expand...

I wasn't insulting them. I have friends that are police officers, but police officers are not your friends. They have a job to do and increasingly it's to encroach on your 4th and 2nd amendment rights. And saying that most LEOs are nice guys is pretty broad as well, and I think in some cases can be true but not where I'm from. I have a very close friend that is a police officer and he would be the first one to say that the officers around here are on a power trip.

My point is that if the cops approach you it is to ascertain whether or not you are breaking a law. They have every right to trick you, lie to you and detain you for no good reason. The flaw is that our public servants/ peace officers are becoming law enforcement officers. I had a three cops come up to me for a MWAG call. I was in a city park drawing with chalk on the ground with children and they never addressed me as sir or were polite in any way and then proceeded to read me the riot act for letting my CCW print. I WAS DRAWING WITH CHALK. This is a very mild case of the trend I'm talking about, but every few years here there is some cop in the news going to prison or being fired for raping hookers, tazing exchange students in their bedrooms, randomly stopping people and spraying them down with pepper spray. They need an attitude adjustment and to realize that it is not an US and Them senario but that they serve at the pleasure of the people and should be respected as such.

No, they don't.

TheHossUSMC · May 27, 2010

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I don't know what fantasy world your living in where you hold hands with the cops and sign campfire songs. Cops do have the right to detain you. You MUST comply with orders given by a LEO. I have been proned out just for walking down the street while OCing. That is a detainment for no good reason. Maybe "right" was the wrong word but they can do almost anything they damn well please. Maybe the cops where you live are your pals , but in general they are not where i'm from.

eye95 · May 28, 2010

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TheHossUSMC wrote:

I don't know what fantasy world your living in where you hold hands with the cops and sign campfire songs. Cops do have the right to detain you. You MUST comply with orders given by a LEO. I have been proned out just for walking down the street while OCing. That is a detainment for no good reason. Maybe "right" was the wrong word but they can do almost anything they damn well please. Maybe the cops where you live are your pals , but in general they are not where i'm from.

I don't post to people who feel the need to insult someone with whom they disagree. I will point out where your were flat wrong and move on.

You said that cops have "every right to...detain you for no good reason." Again, no, they do not.

You can deal with what I actually said, or you can continue to be insulting. It doesn't matter. What I said is the absolute 100% truth, and I feel no need to respond to you further on the subject.

steveinNEPA · May 28, 2010

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Statkowski wrote:

steveinNEPA wrote:

This was a problem in PA, cops saying that you cant OC etc. Well after a while and a few lawsuits later... The police had an updated MPOETC course (Municipal police officers education and training ) that basically told them among other things that OC is legal and they cant do a DAMN thing about it unless that person is engaged in a criminal act. Its a shame that some other states havent done something similar.

Click to expand...

What it took in Pennsylvania to get statewide notification and training to all law enforcement agencies that open carry was legal was a massive letter-writing campaign from all corners of the Commonwealth. We wrote to our elected representatives, we wrote to the state police commissioner, we wrote to each and every member of the board that comes up with the annual training topics.

It took time. It took a lot of people writing a lot of letters. It can be done elsewhere.

While true that the letters and such helped quite a bit (possibly even 70+%), let us remember the incident at Old Country buffet and the many other incident that have happened regarding OC... After that happened it resulted in a lawsuits and illegal arrests/detainment as well as letters and such that is when the MPOETC updates went into the works then later went out about OC being 100% legal with certain exemptions revolving around the LTCF for carry in a vehicle and a city of the first class etc and that a LEO cant legally DO ANYTHING other than have, and I quote, "A mere Encounter" unless the individual who is OCing is engaged in otherwise illegal activities. I apologize for the way I phrased my previous post. Thanks for setting it straight Statkowski other wise I would not have been able to post this correction and my apology.

TheHossUSMC · May 28, 2010

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TheHossUSMC wrote:

I don't know what fantasy world your living in where you hold hands with the cops and sign campfire songs. Cops do have the right to detain you. You MUST comply with orders given by a LEO. I have been proned out just for walking down the street while OCing. That is a detainment for no good reason. Maybe "right" was the wrong word but they can do almost anything they damn well please. Maybe the cops where you live are your pals , but in general they are not where i'm from.

I don't post to people who feel the need to insult someone with whom they disagree. I will point out where your were flat wrong and move on.

You said that cops have "every right to...detain you for no good reason." Again, no, they do not.

You can deal with what I actually said, or you can continue to be insulting. It doesn't matter. What I said is the absolute 100% truth, and I feel no need to respond to you further on the subject.

Yes i did say "right" And I corrected myself. I'm sorry you got your feeling hurt, but my point still remains. You do not know every cop in the US and I doubt you know every cop in your area. MY POINT is that the cops around here, and other places, are not friendly for the most part. They are people too? Yea they are people with power. And everyone knows Lord Acton was right when he said "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly". This has always been the case and always will be. The police need to be more respectful in general and remember who their boss is.

slowfiveoh · May 28, 2010

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RussP wrote:

FedFirefighter wrote:

I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.

Click to expand...

I live in an open carry friendly state and have had many interactions with law enforcement in the six years I've been open carrying. All were good experiences.

"...you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen" indicates you have a negative attitude toward law enforcement. Is that the usual firefighters vs. cops thing, or are there underlying causes for the statement? Have you already been threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL?

Perspective is a wonderful thing, and I think in light of fedfirefighters very polite questions, and acknowledgment of factual overstepping of boundaries by law enforcement across this nation in response to open carrying, law abiding citizens, he deserves to know the truth:

and here it is...

RussP wrote:

No, I do not idolize law enforcement. Well, if you use the definition, "to love or admire to excess", there is one officer - my son. But the others, my closest friends, my friends, no, I hardly idolize them - I do kick their asses when they need it.

Nothing fedfirefighter said would lead anyone to believe he was "anti-LEO".

Just letting you know why that horse was jumped on so fast fedfirefighter.

Welcome to the site, and please stay and hang out!

open4years · May 28, 2010

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FedFirefighter wrote:

No, I don't have any beef at all with LEO's, I respect their job and personally wouldn't want it. All I want is them to correctly know the laws, or least be open minded and do some checking with supervisors before trying to push their opinions on a LAC. I would much rather have cops educated, then leave me alone, than mess with a lawsuit. But, I have tried that, talking to several high ranking LEO's, and they keep clinging to -52 and WILL NOT listen to what I could show them. And yes, our sheriff has said he will pull the permit on anyone caught OC'ing. Thats where it can be very frustrating.

My comments weren't directed at you. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

RussP · Jun 1, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

TheHossUSMC wrote:

The police are not your friends. I have personally had bad experiences with cops while concealed carrying and none while OCing. In fact I have had cops ask me about the type and stuff like that, but I never talk to them unless I am sure they are not interested in arresting me. But in a town where cops are raping hookers and tazing college students left and right I don't take my chances too often.

Click to expand...

I really dislike the bolded part. It is overbroad and insulting. Most LEOs are nice guys. The one who stopped me and the LT COL were genuinely polite and friendly. They were just wrong. If they were more a part of my life, I could easily call them friends, even though I disagree with them on OC.

Even the Dothan officers, based on Diagnosis' story, seemed to be nice enough and just doing what they incorrectly thought was their jobs, with the exception of two of them.

Yeah, there are some jerks in uniform. You run into jerks everywhere. I just don't like folks painting police with a broad brush. It think that a more accurate statement would be that the police exist to deal with BGs. Therefore, they tend to operate in an adversarial mode until they are satisfied that they are not dealing with a BG. This means that, unless they are fully and correctly trained, they will ignorantly step on your rights, so it is your responsibility to know them and to exercise them.

eye95 is correct. Law enforcement knowing laws and understanding the proper application of enforcement is critical.
Those of us who carry knowing the laws and understanding the proper application of enforcement by law enforcement is also critical.
Said another way, law enforcement and carriers understanding in detail each others Rights, responsibilities, and enforcement parameters is critical.

kwikrnu · Jun 1, 2010

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open4years wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

FedFirefighter wrote:

I am just wondering if there is anything else that can be done when you live in an open carry friendly state (Alabama) and have done your homework, know the statutes and case laws, responsibly OC and still get threatened with arrest or loss of your CPL? It seems unless you have a very fat bank account and a connection with a GOOD criminal lawyer, you had best cave to the LEO intimidation and conceal like a good little citizen.

Click to expand...

You nailed it.

I lost my handgun carry permit due to open carry. I have an extremely thick file at several local police agencies, Tennessee Bureau of
Investigations, BATFE, Homeland Security and the FBI. The ATF denied
my purchase of a silencer on Monday due to this. I've not broken any law and never been arrested or charged with a crime.I served honorably in the military.When someone tells me we are free I laugh.

Click to expand...

Was OC legal when you OCed? I've noticed that you mention how many agencies have big files on you, etc. I get the impression that you are proud of this.

If you have never been arrested, why is LE watching you so close - IF they really are? And, how do you know the agencies that have these files on you?

Something doesn't compute on my end. If I had all that LE looking at me, I would first of all, want to know why.

Sorry I went off topic, but this has me confused.

Yes, it was legal.

I know because I have made a lot of public information act requests.

The police do not like open carry.

RussP · Jun 1, 2010

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FedFirefighter wrote:

No, I don't have any beef at all with LEO's, I respect their job and personally wouldn't want it. All I want is them to correctly know the laws, or least be open minded and do some checking with supervisors before trying to push their opinions on a LAC. I would much rather have cops educated, then leave me alone, than mess with a lawsuit. But, I have tried that, talking to several high ranking LEO's, and they keep clinging to -52 and WILL NOT listen to what I could show them. And yes, our sheriff has said he will pull the permit on anyone caught OC'ing. Thats where it can be very frustrating.

Having a local Sheriff with a stated agenda like that would definitely increase the pucker factor for those who carry. When is he up for election?

Yes, personal opinion that is contrary to law has no place in an official encounter, none whatsoever.

FedFirefighter · Jun 1, 2010

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As a matter of fact, his election was today, and it looks like he's gonna pull it out again. :banghead:

RussP · Jun 2, 2010

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FedFirefighter wrote:

As a matter of fact, his election was today, and it looks like he's gonna pull it out again. :banghead:

Ouch...

McX · Jun 2, 2010

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the definition of freedom in this country is changing; it went from what you got to what another will give you. scarey thought huh?

Obeying the laws - Still consequences!!!

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