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Thread: Minocqua Ordinance Change Request

  1. #1
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    The process has been started to change the open carry ordinance in Minocqua.

    I'll keep updating here as needed.


    Current ordinance available here: http://library6.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew




    Sec. 41-19. Possession of hand guns in public buildings.

    (a)Definitions. The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this section, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this subsection, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning: Handgun shall be defined as in Wis. Stats. § 175.35, or its successor. Public building means any church, school, store, except stores in which handguns are sold, office, town-owned building, tavern, restaurant or other building in which the public is allowed to congregate.

    (b)Prohibitions. (1)No person shall enter or remain in any public building located within the town while in possession of any handgun. This prohibition applies to all handguns, including those in cases, holsters, and other enclosures.

    (2)No parent or adult guardian shall permit his child or ward to violate this section.

    (c)Exceptions. (1)The owner of any public building other than a town-owned building, or such owner's authorized employee, may keep handguns on his premises as a means of protecting himself, his patrons, and his property.

    (2)Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the right of duly authorized peace officers to possess handguns while on duty.

    (Code 1997, § 8.03(2))

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    Currently there isn't much going on here.

    Last contact they wanted a fax number to send information to me.

    I'll be up in the Rhinelander area this week, so I shall follow up with them in person.

    I will post updates here as they are available.

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    I brought up the unenforceable ordinance to the Minocqua town supervisor about 1 year ago. (Joe Handrick) He has also posted on this forum too.
    He concurred that it was unenforceable, and he explained that heactually co-authored the bill for preemption while he was a state legislator.

    The Minocquapolice chief and the town supervisor know the statute is bogus and enforceable, as do the Minocqua police. You got nothing to worry about if you O-C in Minocqua, or most anywhereVilas county. (Minocqua is in Oneida county)
    There are a select few Minocqua cops who may try to pull some schitt, (one I can think of right now) but other than that you are good to go here.

    Rhinelander? I do not know if they are up to date with the laws and aware that our right to O-C is kosher.

    Give me a holler when you are up this way, maybe we can meet up someplace to put a face to the names? Or got shooting at the range?

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    Thanks for the info.

    I'm not worried about OCing anywhwere in WI, but regardless, the ordinances need to go away.

    And they will.

    I'll be up there this week for work, and I'll have a bit of free time if you wanna do lunch wed or thur.

    My dad lives in rhinelander, thus the push to clean up the ordinances there.

    He'd love to meet another 2nd amender too.

    Let me know about lunch. Jason.lillis@sbcglobal.net

    Thanks!

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    UPDATE:

    I had a chance to speak with Joe this week.

    He did state that he is aware of not being able to enforce the ordinance on the books, and stated that he did review this a year ago. He also stated that the police chief is aware that this ordinance cannot be enforced. However, he stated that he will not put this item on the next PPP agenda, as they are going to be amending several ordinances sometime this year at a PPP meeting. He said they will address this ordinance at that time.

    I then contacted the police chief and was able to confirm that he is aware that they cannot enforce this ordinance, and that he has informed his officers. I requested a copy of the official memo he sent out a year ago to his officers informing them of not being able to enforce this ordinance. I wanted to make sure that the information has been passed down so everyone is aware of it until we can get this issue resolved with at the next PPP meeting.

    He forwarded me a copy of the memo he sent out a year ago. It's a VERY good read, and I suggest everyone read it. It was very well written, thought out and helps to shed a whole new light on the police force up there. (In my eyes at least). There is even a bit about our group here as well in the memo.

    I will continue to follow up with Joe regarding when this will be addressed and will post that information when it's available to me.

    (Memo attached was received from Minocqua Police Chief Andrew Gee)

    Here is the e-mail I received which included the attached memo:



    Jason,

    Here is a copy of the memo that I issued on April 9, 2009 regarding Open Carry Concerns. Note that the specific part of the memo that you expressed interest in is on page two. It is the bolded paragraph citing statute 941.235 Carrying Firearm in Public Building. I point out in that paragraph that our ordinance is invalid per 66.0409(2) Wisc Stats.
    I have highlighted the paragraph. Note that there is one redaction in the memo. I redacted a secure website address on the State’s law enforcement site.



    Let me know if you have any questions.



    Thank you,

    Andrew R. Gee

    Chief of Police

    Minocqua, WI

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Overall a decent memo. Only thing he missed that I saw was that we can OC in a class B establishment with permission from manager/owner.

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    Still attempting to get this on an agenda at some meeting.

    However, this is going to be a bit more work than normal.

    Apparently the City of Minocqua doesn't like to notify people of meetings unless they know quite a bit about that person. Since I won't tell them exactly who I am, and instead place my official request for meeting notifications from my news media company, they are hesitant to offer me meeting notices for fear that I may be a prisoner in the jail system somewhere.

    The City has also apparently taken the stance that they will get to this when they get to this, and that if I had a better understanding of the Town Chairman's personal life, his background and his apparent very good personal relationship with Attorney General Van Hollen, I would understand that he completely supports our efforts. However, he may support our efforts and he understands their ordinance is unenforceable, but he still feels the need to just take his time remedying this situation.

    Below is his most recent response to me. I will continue to follow up on this until it is taken care of.

    I also am taking a step back from my huge push in communities around here, as I'm working on a new plan of attack. There is a much easier way to do this statewide, versus city by city, town by town, etc... My plan may or may not work, but I've about reached the end of my rope with everyone I've been forced to talk to in each community, and the whole Sheriff issue I heard about in Portage/Stevens Point has about pushed all my buttons.

    Here's the most recent e-mail I got:


    We work for the residents and taxpayers of Minocqua. We don't expend the time nor the money of notifying people of meetings if they are not residents andtaxpayers of the town. Since you won't identify who you are (you could be an inmate in the prison system for all we know), you will not receive any notification. Your last email then also makes it clear that you have some reason to believe that the town is not supportive of open carry (i.e. we're "putting up a fight") or gun rights in general and gave me the same lecture you would give someone who doesn't appreciate the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution. If you knew my background and history on these issues you would realize just how silly you sound (hint: I joined our newspaper publisher and 2 local citizens who were open carrying last summer on the main street of our town to show support). Please go ahead and call Mr. Van Hollen, he is a personal friend of mine and I'm sure he could "enlighten" us. There is a strong anti-2nd Amendment movement that permeates Wisconsin and the nation. Why don't you focus your energy on them rather than on the people who are on your side? Joe Handrick
    Minocqua Town Chairman



    (Edit to remove jibber characters that came along with my copy/paste from e-mail)

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Why would you not identify yourself?

    You are complaining about not having it fixed in less than a month? I have been working with Elkhorn now since September 2009 and we are finally getting there. I believe it will be done in the next 6 weeks or so.

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    paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
    Why would you not identify yourself?

    You are complaining about not having it fixed in less than a month? I have been working with Elkhorn now since September 2009 and we are finally getting there. I believe it will be done in the next 6 weeks or so.
    1. My request for meeting notifications was from my company, a news media company. That name they got. That's all the information they need in order to send meeting notifications to my company as per:

    19.84 Public notice. (1) (b) By communication from the chief presiding officer of
    governmental body or such person’s designee to the public, to
    those news media who have filed a written request for such notice,
    and to the official newspaper designated under ss. 985.04, 985.05
    and 985.06 or, if none exists, to a news medium likely to give notice in the area.




    2. The request to remove the Minocqua ordinance was presented to Joe over a year ago. The answer then, was that they would address this issue at the normal meeting they have once a year to address any ordinance changes, etc... Since that notice over a year ago, that annual meeting has come and gone, and is about to come and go once again. I believe 2 years is too long to keep putting something off.

    (Edit to remove html characters)

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    icepik wrote:
    Apparently the City of Minocqua doesn't like to notify people of meetings
    Annual meetings are minutely controlled by statute, including the date. Were you at the annual meeting? The agenda for these meetings is not detailed.

    It does little damn good to jabber about the rule of law when asses can't be made to drink, read or think.

    "Notice Requirements
    Wisconsin Stat. § 19.84, which sets forth the public notice requirements, specifies when, how and to
    whom notice must be given, as well as what information a notice must contain.
    1. To whom and how notice must be given
    The chief presiding officer of a governmental body, or the officer’s designee, must give notice of each
    meeting of the body to: (1) the public, (2) any members of the news media who have submitted a written request
    for notice and (3) the official newspaper, designated ..."

    A governmental body has no discretion in meeting notice.



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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    icepik wrote:
    Apparently the City of Minocqua doesn't like to notify people of meetings
    Annual meetings are minutely controlled by statute, including the date. Were you at the annual meeting? The agenda for these meetings is not detailed.

    It does little damn good to jabber about the rule of law when asses can't be made to drink, read or think.

    "Notice Requirements
    Wisconsin Stat. § 19.84, which sets forth the public notice requirements, specifies when, how and to
    whom notice must be given, as well as what information a notice must contain.
    1. To whom and how notice must be given
    The chief presiding officer of a governmental body, or the officer’s designee, must give notice of each
    meeting of the body to: (1) the public, (2) any members of the news media who have submitted a written request
    for notice and (3) the official newspaper, designated ..."

    A governmental body has no discretion in meeting notice.

    I am uncertain if your post was against or with me, however...to answer your question.

    I was not at the meeting last year, as the original request was made by someone other than myself. I was only made aware of this request when I posted on here about initiating my request to have this ordinance removed. So I cannot answer for what has happened prior to me, only relay what I've been informed of.

    By your comment at the end about a governmental body having no discretion in meeting notices, I can only conclude that you are posting in support of what I've said. His e-mail to me indicating that I will not be notified, nor will anyone else who refuses to identify themselves as residents of Minocqua, is ridiculous and completely outside of his scope of what he is allowed to "decide".

    His interpretation of meeting notices doesn't surprise me however. When taking a look at how local municipalities have been interpreting the open carry laws, it's quite apparent that very broad interpretation of laws/regulations is allowed to happen very much un-checked in most communities.

    Perhaps someone, somewhere, isn't doing his/her job. Not pointing fingers right now, but just saying...

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    icepik wrote:
    Currently there isn't much going on here.

    Last contact they wanted a fax number to send information to me.

    I'll be up in the Rhinelander area this week, so I shall follow up with them in person.

    I will post updates here as they are available.
    You might wish to ask the mayor there why he takes marching orders from Chicago and New York City.

    http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns..../members.shtml
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Flipper wrote:
    icepik wrote:
    Currently there isn't much going on here.

    Last contact they wanted a fax number to send information to me.

    I'll be up in the Rhinelander area this week, so I shall follow up with them in person.

    I will post updates here as they are available.
    You might wish to ask the mayor there why he takes marching orders from Chicago and New York City.

    http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns..../members.shtml
    I was aware that the Rhinelander Mayor is listed.

    He's also a Veteran who received a Purple Heart.

    He also cannot fly an American Flag properly. (See photo attached if I can make it work) Mayor on Left, Jim from WPEG.net on right.

    Yes, he has been sent a copy of the flag code, but has not corrected it.

    I have not looked into that website much, so I cannot make educated comments about it or it's members.

    Even if I asked him about it, he would decline to answer me as a human, and simply provide me with the politicians answer, which would basically say that he likes puppies and jelly beans.

    Edit: Actually attach picture this time...lol

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    Icepik,

    You are truly jumping on the wrong guy . Mr. Handrick is a friend of the movement, and 2A rights in general.

    The entire police force knows theordinance is bogus, as does everyone else in this town.
    Minocqua has more pressing issues right now than going through the motions removing a bogus ordinance from the books that everyone already knows is unenforceable.
    Think of the ordinance asa rare piece of "Non-offensive graffiti" it is not hurting anything right now, so it is not at the top of the list. If you visit the area, I can almost guarantee you will not receive any problems from the town government or law enforcement.
    I operate an O-C friendly establishment on the island, follow the smoke and you'll be at my front door, then go to the side door so you can get in.

    Mr Handrick co-authored the flippin preemption bill, trust me, he is on our side!



    Town meeting times are posted in the Lakeland Times, and they just happen to be a huge advocate of our 2A rights, Mr. Moore and Mr Walkerhave done more reporting on these issues than any other publication in the state or maybe even the entirecountry.
    It makes me proud to be a resident of the area!

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    I understand his position on 2A rights.

    However, if you look at the big picture that this ordinance has been sitting on the books for a year, and they've already had the opportunity to remove it at the appropriate meeting last year, I hope you will understand my point.

    If an ordinance is unenforceable, and the community knows it, then it can be removed during the course of 2 or 3 normal meetings.

    This has happened in a couple of communities already with no issue, and was completed within 60 days of the request.

    The excuse that we must wait until they're ready, because it will cost too much money to address now, is ridiculous.

    I will not accept a delay of over a year, regardless of what excuse I'm given, and certainly regardless of how supportive someone says they are of what we're doing.

    I will not debate this issue, my position is very clear. I can wait for due process, but over 1 year is out of line, regardless of where/who is involved.

    As I've said before, I'm working on a completely different angle, and if it works as I expect it to, will solve this and many other issues rather quickly, and in one full swoop.

    Jay

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    icepik wrote:
    I understand his position on 2A rights.

    However, if you look at the big picture that this ordinance has been sitting on the books for a year, and they've already had the opportunity to remove it at the appropriate meeting last year, I hope you will understand my point.

    If an ordinance is unenforceable, and the community knows it, then it can be removed during the course of 2 or 3 normal meetings.

    This has happened in a couple of communities already with no issue, and was completed within 60 days of the request.

    The excuse that we must wait until they're ready, because it will cost too much money to address now, is ridiculous.

    I will not accept a delay of over a year, regardless of what excuse I'm given, and certainly regardless of how supportive someone says they are of what we're doing.

    I will not debate this issue, my position is very clear. I can wait for due process, but over 1 year is out of line, regardless of where/who is involved.

    As I've said before, I'm working on a completely different angle, and if it works as I expect it to, will solve this and many other issues rather quickly, and in one full swoop.

    Jay
    I THINK YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE;

    The entire town knows the outdated ordinance is unenforcable, it means nothing. Taking the time to remove it from the publications does nothing to benefit anyone except to waste monies that could be used for more important items such as repairing pot-holes, paying the town workers, and day to day operations of the town.

    Minocqua is a rural unincorporated town that respects peoples rights to the full extent.

  18. #18
    Regular Member FMJ45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by icepik View Post
    The process has been started to change the open carry ordinance in Minocqua.

    I'll keep updating here as needed.


    Current ordinance available here: http://library6.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew




    Sec. 41-19. Possession of hand guns in public buildings.

    (a)Definitions. The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this section, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this subsection, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning: Handgun shall be defined as in Wis. Stats. § 175.35, or its successor. Public building means any church, school, store, except stores in which handguns are sold, office, town-owned building, tavern, restaurant or other building in which the public is allowed to congregate.

    (b)Prohibitions. (1)No person shall enter or remain in any public building located within the town while in possession of any handgun. This prohibition applies to all handguns, including those in cases, holsters, and other enclosures.

    (2)No parent or adult guardian shall permit his child or ward to violate this section.

    (c)Exceptions. (1)The owner of any public building other than a town-owned building, or such owner's authorized employee, may keep handguns on his premises as a means of protecting himself, his patrons, and his property.

    (2)Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the right of duly authorized peace officers to possess handguns while on duty.

    (Code 1997, § 8.03(2))
    ================================================== =====

    Today, buried in a back page article of The Lakeland Times (.com) amid the
    musings about the town board dealing with issues about construction
    contracts going to local vendors at higher rates than the lowest submitted bidder, I happened on some 2A
    news. Good news of course, and it's about time!

    Minocqua, WI,. repeals it's Open Carry Gun Ordinance as unenforceable!!!

    After repeated attempts over the last number of months by representatives of WPEG.net informing Minocqua's police chief, Mr. Gee, and town chairman Mr. Handrick that their open carry gun ordinance was an unenforceable ordinance and needed to be repealed, Minocqua's Town open carry ordinance was quietly repealed this week. Chief Gee said to a Lakeland Times reporter..." the town's current ordinance is unenforceable because of a state statute prohibiting towns from instituting more restrictive policies than the state on second amendment issues".

    http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=1207 0&TM=41991.24


    BRAVO! Endeavor to persevere!

    On a second but equally important note: Open Records and our elected officials!

    Gubernatorial Candidate Mr. Scott Walker has requested a legal opinion by
    Atty Gen Van Holland concerning emails being deleted by elected
    officials in government in an attempt to elude the States Open Records Laws.

    Could Scott Walker actually believe in things like the Constitution, and
    2A rights?

    Read the article in the Lakeland Times:
    http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.as...32&TM=41991.24


    Regards,
    Yours in the cause
    WPEG.net


    ** Besides the WPEG network, very few news publications follow the news as
    aggressively as The Lakeland Times on issues that protect your rights in both 1st and 2nd Amendment issues.
    A strong recommendation to read the online version of Lakeland Times @ www.lakelandtimes.com and/or subscribe to the paper . . . Oh, and of course, contribute to WPEG.net through their website http://www.wpeg.net
    "Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The (US) Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters . . . but they mean to be masters."
    [Daniel Webster]

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    Yes, I agree, The LakeLandTimes.com is the best.

    I posted a link URL to the ORR e-mail court case sometime ago. Ahh, yes, here it is, from two weeks ago, with no replies.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...m-16-July-2010

    Old ORR news 'Court sides with teachers in e-mail dispute'. JSOnline.com 16 July 2010

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/98595669.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilmetti
    Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson wrote the lead opinion, joined by justices N. Patrick Crooks and David Prosser. It concludes that content of an e-mail - not its author or the account it was written on or whether it was done during an employee's work day - determines whether it amounts to a public record. So a teacher's e-mail to a spouse about a child care arrangement, having no connection to a government function, would not be a record.

    But the dissent points out that none of the justices has ever seen the content of the e-mails in question, and that by allowing government employees to apply their own "personal" label on some e-mails creates a "broad, blanket exception" to the public records law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman
    We make great use of Chapter 19, Wisc. Stats., Subchapter II, but need to remember that it is not without its limitations. We must perform our due diligence and exercise discretion. That is not always the case, and worse, not always the case for would-be 'leaders'.

    Here is the link URL to WiCourts.gov and the decision and opinions

    http://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinion/D...df&seqNo=52285 107 pages (a long document) 287 KB
    I posted it in response to a threat from an WCI flack to a correspondent.
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 10-23-2010 at 07:44 AM.

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    Interesting thread. I'm moving to Minocqua(from AZ) in December.

    It's going to be quite a change. I expect I'll be a scofflaw. I recognize no law that would prohibit me from being able
    to defend my family. The school zone law you have is.... beyond rediculous. Then there's the concealed carry issue. Hopefully you will replace your current Governor.

    Interestingly enough, I ran into the Minocqua police chief just yesterday. I was looking at houses and stopped in at a property management company and he was in there. I was told his name is Andy and that he's a nice guy. It was his day off, according to the establishment's owner, so I didn't want to trouble him while he was on his own time. I would have liked to say hello.
    Last edited by 1FASTC4; 10-23-2010 at 02:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1FASTC4 View Post
    Interesting thread. I'm moving to Minocqua(from AZ) in December.

    It's going to be quite a change. I expect I'll be a scofflaw. I recognize no law that would prohibit me from being able
    to defend my family. The school zone law you have is.... beyond rediculous. Then there's the concealed carry issue. Hopefully you will replace your current Governor.

    Interestingly enough, I ran into the Minocqua police chief just yesterday. I was looking at houses and stopped in at a property management company and he was in there. I was told his name is Andy and that he's a nice guy. It was his day off, according to the establishment's owner, so I didn't want to trouble him while he was on his own time. I would have liked to say hello.
    LOL.. (humor mode on) Now why in God's Green Earth, and majestic AZ mountains, would you move to Minocqua WI in the middle of the winter? I'm sure it's not our existing gun laws. (chuckle)

    Anyway, what ever the reasons, welcome to the Northwoods of Wisconsin. Minocqua is a pretty nice community, and most folks up here are worth the time to get to know. I've found that the people living / working in the community have hearts of gold, and the politicians do what they want, when they want, and figure no one is watching them. Beware to the politician that gets trailed by either WPEG or Lakeland Times with a meaty story. They'll sink their teeth into one of them and it's as brutally messy as getting caught in the middle of a hungry and feeding wolf pack.

    Again, bring your long johns and snowmobiles. You'll have some of the best winter trail riding and winter hunting you'll ever run into.
    "Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The (US) Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters . . . but they mean to be masters."
    [Daniel Webster]

    Who is Your Master?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    I posted a link URL to the ORR e-mail court case sometime ago. Ahh, yes, here it is, from two weeks ago, with no replies.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...m-16-July-2010

    Old ORR news 'Court sides with teachers in e-mail dispute'. JSOnline.com 16 July 2010

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/98595669.html




    I posted it in response to a threat from an WCI flack to a correspondent.

    Doug,

    I don't think I was posting here when you posted this link/story, but I surely would have had I been and seen it. I know I followed this story quite keenly, and sided with the harsh wording that Lakeland Times used on this ludicrous ruling.

    I think though, that caution when using the FOIA is the least of Jon Q public's worries. It's very much like open carry, use it or loose it. I liken it to a guideline conversation that a Wauwatosa police officer had to our local Block Watch group years back. ..."if you see something, you hesitate and think it's out of place, call 911 and report it..."

    Good words and a pretty good rule of thumb in both worlds I think. (*block watch and gov watch)

    If you are not sure about the actions of an elected official, a governing body, or appointed official, check it out. The first stumbling block of arrogance, authoritative prevent, or dummy on the sideline response you receive, drop the hammer. If more citizens did that on a semi-regular basis, I think that the America that was built could be regained, and the predominant feeling of not trusting the Government would subside.
    "Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The (US) Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters . . . but they mean to be masters."
    [Daniel Webster]

    Who is Your Master?

  23. #23
    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ45 View Post
    LOL.. (humor mode on) Now why in God's Green Earth, and majestic AZ mountains, would you move to Minocqua WI in the middle of the winter? I'm sure it's not our existing gun laws. (chuckle)

    Anyway, what ever the reasons, welcome to the Northwoods of Wisconsin.
    Heheh, Thanks for the welcome. My kids will be of school age soon and the AZ school system is rated last or nearly so in the country. Also, the Phoenix valley, where I currently reside, is among the worst areas in the country, in fact the worst for some pollution, for air quality. I also have never liked the big city.... too many people.

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