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Thread: Non-Lethal Self Defense

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    The reasons for me to carry a handgun openly are: 1) It is my right as a citizen, and 2) self defense.

    I am curious if others who are openly carrying a handgun now in Wisconsin (or elsewhere) have considered other options besides the handgun. I am of the opinion that if you are in reasonable fear of significant harm or death that you should use lethal force to defend yourself. I do like to have options particularly because even legitimate uses of lethal force have numerous negative consequences for the defender and his/her family. If in my judgment I can defend myself or my family by use of empty hand techniques or with pepper spray with the handgun being the last option, that would be preferable as long as doing so does not increase the danger to me or my family.

    I understand that some would not be physically able to use any sort of empty hand techniques. Martial arts studios and instructors have not done a very good job in my opinion of teaching basic self defense; the perception is that to become proficient you must spend many hours over months to years learning these techniques. The reality is that someone with average physical abilities can be taught effective and basic techniques in a few hours. Likewise proper use of pepper spray can be taught in a short period of time.

    Your opinions on this?

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    Just throwin my hat into the ring here, but I also carry Pepper spray whilst OC'n. That andI also bring with me a custom Left hook followed by a nice overhand right !
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    professor gun wrote:
    The reasons for me to carry a handgun openly are: 1) It is my right as a citizen, and 2) self defense.

    I am curious if others who are openly carrying a handgun now in Wisconsin (or elsewhere) have considered other options besides the handgun. I am of the opinion that if you are in reasonable fear of significant harm or death that you should use lethal force to defend yourself. I do like to have options particularly because even legitimate uses of lethal force have numerous negative consequences for the defender and his/her family. If in my judgment I can defend myself or my family by use of empty hand techniques or with pepper spray with the handgun being the last option, that would be preferable as long as doing so does not increase the danger to me or my family.

    I understand that some would not be physically able to use any sort of empty hand techniques. Martial arts studios and instructors have not done a very good job in my opinion of teaching basic self defense; the perception is that to become proficient you must spend many hours over months to years learning these techniques. The reality is that someone with average physical abilities can be taught effective and basic techniques in a few hours. Likewise proper use of pepper spray can be taught in a short period of time.

    Your opinions on this?
    I personally feel that lethal force should always be a last option, however, to engage in hand to hand combat, or other non lethal battles, you may open yourself up to more harm, or render yourself unable to use your sidearm to defend yourself...or worse, allow your attacker to gain access to your sidearm and use it against you.

    Pointing your sidearm at a potential attacker would hopefully be enough of non lethal force to end the potential attack, but if it doesn't, you're only a finger squeeze away from changing your mind about non lethal versus lethal.

    Of course this wouldn't apply to a dog attack, as simply pointing a gun at a dog is highly unlikely to deter said dog.

    Lethal force isn't, and should never be a #1 go to solution, but making sure you're able to use it if needed should be.

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    Whlie were on the topic, How about air tasers like the cops have? Is it legal for one of us to carry/have one? On a related note, I know from firsthand experiance that them mothers HURT and will definitly stop a would be attacker!
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    professor gun wrote:
    The reasons for me to carry a handgun openly are: 1) It is my right as a citizen, and 2) self defense.

    I am curious if others who are openly carrying a handgun now in Wisconsin (or elsewhere) have considered other options besides the handgun. I am of the opinion that if you are in reasonable fear of significant harm or death that you should use lethal force to defend yourself. I do like to have options particularly because even legitimate uses of lethal force have numerous negative consequences for the defender and his/her family. If in my judgment I can defend myself or my family by use of empty hand techniques or with pepper spray with the handgun being the last option, that would be preferable as long as doing so does not increase the danger to me or my family.
    Your opinions on this?
    Your first and best option is to leave the area. If someone tries to pick a fight, you leave. If someone throws a punch, you leave. Calling you, your mom and your wife names is no reason to stick around and argue. If someone threatens your life, leave. If they pursue you and you can not evade them, then you consider physical options. Deadly force is WAY down on the list of options you should be exercising.

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    I carry Mean Green OC spray and a knife along with my pistol(s). I am also considering a collapsable batton.

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    TyGuy wrote:
    I carry Mean Green OC spray and a knife along with my pistol(s). I am also considering a collapsable batton.
    Now i can't be sure that this is true, but I used to carry a batton with me, got stopped by police for an unrelated issue and was told by the officer that he's gonna "let me slide" on this one and to not carryit around anymore as this was technicly a felony offense. But like I said, not sure if that's law or not. Anyone got any input?
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    Green Bay City Ordinances ban concealed weapons. If you are driving down the street with a "weapon" on your belt, it is concealed.... If a baton is in your pocket in public, it is concealed. If it isenclosed in a case on your belt it may be concealed. I don't know if a holster case on your belt is considered available for immediate use or not.


    27.603 WEAPONS
    .

    (3) POSSESSION OF DANGEROUS OR DEADLY WEAPONS.(a) Generally Prohibited. Except as reasonably necessary to fulfill the exceptions provided elsewhere in this ordinance, no person shall carry or transport any bow or crossbow, or conceal about the person or display in a threatening manner any dangerous or deadly weapon including, but not limited by enumeration to, martial arts weapons such as throwing stars, swords, or nunchiku; slingshots; knuckles of lead, brass, or other metals; or a bowie knife, bow, or crossbow; pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun.

    (b) Exceptions. The prohibitions of subsection (3)(a) will not be construed to prevent the carrying of any type of weapon when it is unloaded and properly cased, boxed, packaged, or otherwise unavailable for immediate use

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    Regular Member Old Grump's Avatar
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    I walk with a cane so I am armed as long as I am on my feet. I already found out 1 cane trumps a punk with a small cheap knife.
    Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAF and CCRKBA

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    professor gun wrote:
    Martial arts studios and instructors have not done a very good job in my opinion of teaching basic self defense;
    The academy that I went to it was all about scoring points at tournaments. It was rather disheartening to know that as a yellow belt, I could take out, in street fight fashion, a majority of the academy's brown belts.

    I am not a kid anymore. I would like to take some classes that teaches techniques, to create distance, to draw and other weapon retention techniques.

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    dang boys, my belt going to end up looking alot like a cop's belt. i'm not down for that, but it's good we speak of it. keep going, i'm listening for mine- your idea.

    that sword cane appeals to me, but it's 16 ways illegal i bet. added.

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    Since I do not typically walk around with the batman utility belt hanging off my hips, I am not going to weigh myself down with every option I could ever use. I have a holstered pistol on my side, and a cell-phone in my pocket. I do not have the room for carrying all kinds of extra crap with me,

    if a would-beattacker does not back down at the sight of a pistol pointed at his chest, then they are going to have a bigger problem in the next few seconds.

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    non lethal self defense = no such thing.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    ditto glock, ditto.

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    TyGuy wrote:
    I carry Mean Green OC spray and a knife along with my pistol(s). I am also considering a collapsable batton.
    I have an ASP readily accessible on the floor in my truck. I dabble in the Profession of Auto Repo, since I have come in contact with some unsavory individuals. If I can not get away in my truck and I have no other means of escape, then yes I will utilize my ASP. But Empty Hand Control and Verbal Stuns hopefully will do the trick along with some bluffin and puffin.

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    qball54208 wrote:
    TyGuy wrote:
    I carry Mean Green OC spray and a knife along with my pistol(s). I am also considering a collapsable batton.
    I have an ASP readily accessible on the floor in my truck. I dabble in the Profession of Auto Repo, since I have come in contact with some unsavory individuals. If I can not get away in my truck and I have no other means of escape, then yes I will utilize my ASP. But Empty Hand Control and Verbal Stuns hopefully will do the trick along with some bluffin and puffin.
    I have an Aluminum Baseball bat next to the door inside my van & a tire buddy.

    when the cops ask me why I have a bat I tell them I sponsor a little league team.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    BROKENSPROKET wrote:
    professor gun wrote:
    ¬*Martial arts studios and instructors have not done a very good job in my opinion of teaching basic self defense;
    The academy that I went to it was all about scoring points at tournaments. It was rather disheartening to know that as a yellow belt, I could take out, in street fight fashion, a majority of the academy's brown belts.
    Unfortunately, Brokensprocket, I think that applies even more today to a lot of the studios. Where I train I suspect most of the young black belts would be in trouble in a fight. There are a few that I spar with that would do just fine but a lot of them would end up in pieces.

    Old Grump makes a good point. One of the really good black belts I have trained with over the years got involved in cane defense. With just some very basic training the cane is an excellent weapon.

    Thanks for the opinions, guys. I agree use of the weapon has to be a last resort, but it is comforting to have that available.

    Other opinions?

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    Glock34 wrote:
    [b][user=52248]
    I have an Aluminum Baseball bat next to the door inside my van¬* & a tire buddy.
    [/quote]

    I keep Escrima sticks around, these are martial arts weapons that are basically bamboo sticks that are about 3 feet long, inch and a half in diameter. Easier than the baseball bat to maneuver and just as good for striking. Sometimes when I go on late night walks I carry two (my neighborhood is all within the GFSZ); they simply look like sticks.

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    Landose_theghost wrote:
    Whlie were on the topic, How about air tasers like the cops have? Is it legal for one of us to carry/have one? On a related note, I know from firsthand experiance that them mothers HURT and will definitly stop a would be attacker!
    Possession of an electric weapon by non-LEO is a felony in Wisconsin. (Chapter 941.295)
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    Landose_theghost wrote:
    TyGuy wrote:
    I carry Mean Green OC spray and a knife along with my pistol(s). I am also considering a collapsable batton.
    Now i can't be sure that this is true, but I used to carry a batton with me, got stopped by police for an unrelated issue and was told by the officer that he's gonna "let me slide" on this one and to not carryit around anymore as this was technicly a felony offense. But like I said, not sure if that's law or not. Anyone got any input?
    Yes, my input is that it's ********. It's completely legal to have a collapsible baton, unless you have a local ordinance against it, in which case it wouldn't be a felony or even a misdemeanor----- it would be a non-criminal forfeiture.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Landose_theghost wrote:
    Just throwin my hat into the ring here, but I also carry Pepper spray whilst OC'n. That andI also bring with me a custom Left hook followed by a nice overhand right !
    Bad idea in my opinion. If you don't use your pepper spray and go straight for your gun, you will face a barrage of questions from a DA and prosecuter who will try to show that you didn't use lesser force, even though you had it available to you.

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    I agree. I think the use of non-lethal force would obviously be the best form of self defense. However, if you carry pepper spray and your firearm, and go right for the firearm, I think that you will probably face consequences. On another note, if someone breaks in to my home in the middle of the night, I will not be attempting any hand to hand combat.

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    smithman wrote:
    Landose_theghost wrote:
    Just throwin my hat into the ring here, but I also carry Pepper spray whilst OC'n. That andI also bring with me a custom Left hook followed by a nice overhand right !
    Bad idea in my opinion. If you don't use your pepper spray and go straight for your gun, you will face a barrage of questions from a DA and prosecuter who will try to show that you didn't use lesser force, even though you had it available to you.
    I've been trying to grapple with this question myself for quite a long time. If I recall correctly, when I took the MN CCW class a number of years ago there was a suggestion expressed that is similar to smithman's.

    On the other hand, a prosecutor can, and ought to always ask whether the person could have used a lesser force in a particular case. One almost always has a lesser force available: e.g., fists. If it isn't clear that deadly force is justified, don't attempt to use deadly force. If it isn't clear to you, then it certainly won't be clear to the DA or the jury. If you don't have a reasonable understanding of the self-defense law, then probably you are better off reserving your gun for use on the range, hunting, or other recreational use. Leave your knife home too.

    It's wrong to say that you will face a barrage of questions from the DA since you never have to testify against yourself. But the DA may raise the question for the jury to consider.

    As far as pepper spray itself, my feeling is that it is good for police, who have a relatively good understanding of and training in the "continuum of force" and who will often face situations where they know deadly force is not going to be required but some level of force will be. And it is good for people who don't like guns or don't or cannot own a gun; or who are not the type, for whatever reason that ought to have a gun, or have no proficiency with a gun. And finally, it's good for taking into places where you cannot take a gun.

    Pepper spray has plenty of drawbacks too, including: It's not that fast to deploy if you don't already have it in your hand when you need it. It blows back into your face. It has a fairly limited range. Some people are unaffected by it. Drawing and shooting a gun takes about a second. Digging out your spray, taking it off "safe" and orienting it correctly to the threat (and not back at your own face) will take several seconds under the best circumstances. If you did spray, but still needed to shoot someone, how would that look? Might appear that you just shot a helpless person.

    I doubt that I would ever attempt to deploy pepper spray in a situation that I had a gun and use of deadly force was justified. I keep it around the house, but I rarely carry it outside the house.

    So my personal debate continues. I welcome comments.




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    if one carries a collaspible baton in their pocket, is that a concealed weapon?

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    Not to mention that a person hopped up on Meth would be virtually uneffected by pepper spray.

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