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Thread: "Warning: Giving a Statement After a Shooting..."

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    It Doesn’t Have to Make Sense: It’s Just the Law - Statements ..

    The story had a happy ending, but a story four years and tens of thousands of dollars in the making, and not a story the Marshal enjoyed very much....BY K.L. Jamison


    In 1996, an unhappy consumer attacked the City Marshal of Lancaster, Missouri with a hammer.(1) The Marshal defended himself and later vented his adrenaline to the responding Sheriff stating, “I hope the son-of-a-bitch is dead.” This led to the Marshal’s conviction for involuntary manslaughter and a sentence of seven years in prison.(2) The story had a happy ending, but a story four years and tens of thousands of dollars in the making, and not a story the Marshal enjoyed very much. The Marshal might have avoided the worst part of the story had he not confused his right to remain silent with the right of free speech.
    In the movie, Under Pressure, a woman tried to explain the stalking and implied threats of a neighbor. After a disorganized and unconvincing recitation of ambiguous events she lamely concludes, “I’m not a very good story teller.” Most people tell stories badly. In the aftermath of self-defense there can be a giddy stream of consciousness statement which has more to do with the effects of adrenaline than reality. The basic legal advice is “DON’T.”
    The first question is, “What is a statement?” In a nation which counts exotic dancing as freedom of speech, a statement is also broadly construed. In 1996, the Missouri Supreme Court ruled that a suspect’s refusal to uncross his legs during questioning could be taken as a statement when later charged with murder.(3) In a separate death penalty case, the court found that the defendant had purchased a used car which sported the bumper sticker, “I’m the person your mother warned you about.” At trial the prosecution argued that the fact he did not remove this bumper sticker revealed something about his character. The Missouri Supreme Court ruled that it was perfectly acceptable for the state to kill this man, in part, because of his failure to remove the bumpersticker.(4) One can imagine the effect of bumper stickers bought in jest such as, “Keep Honking, I’m Reloading.” If this case does not also inspire a re-evaluation of one’s T-shirt collection, nothing will.
    There is also the problem of nicknames. As of this writing, a rapper who rejoices in the stage name “C-Murder” is on trial for murder. If I were asked to defend a man named “Murder” or any variation thereof, I would charge more. Massad Ayoob testified in favor of a police officer who had killed a felon nicknamed “Snake.” Captain Ayoob slipped the nickname into his testimony which seems to have had an effect on the jury.
    .
    Written statement, a VERY BAD idea!
    There is a cynical defense attorney saying: “Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you.” In the movie, My Cousin Vinnie, two, unfortunate Yankees are suspected of murder and during questioning are accused of shooting a clerk. One incredulously asked, “I shot the clerk?” This is taken down and read in court as a confession. Theater audiences laughed, defense attorneys smiled and nodded. There have even been cases where comments by other persons have been attributed to the defendant, and used against him; complete silence is the only bulwark against these mistakes.
    The first statement is the 911 call. These calls are recorded and if the call sounds bad for the defendant, it will be played over and over again at trial. In one case, a man cocked his double-action revolver and went after a person who was shooting out windows. When he caught up with the threat he extended his revolver and in the process tripped the light single action trigger pull; arguably an accidental discharge. His 911 call records him saying that he thought he had just shot someone. The 911 operator, trained to keep him on the line and keep him talking, asked why he thought he had shot someone. The man replied, “Lady, I think I’m a pretty good shot.” This callous-sounding statement took accident off the table and the man had to live or die with a self-defense case. This all important introduction to law enforcement must be planned in advance.
    The first words out of the caller’s mouth should be the location of the incident. If the battery then dies, or the minutes run out, or some other technological catastrophe occurs the authorities will know that something of interest is at that location, and the caller’s cell phone records can prove that he or she made the call. The next statement is the caller’s name. The core of the 911 call consists of three sentences:
    “He tried to kill me.”
    “I was never so scared in my life.”
    “Send an ambulance.”(5)
    The first sentence serves to introduce the roles of the parties, the caller is the victim, the other person the attacker. Being in reasonable fear of life or limb is a prerequisite to acting in self-defense. The phrase “I was never so scared…” is to preclude the prosecutor from claiming that the citizen never said he was scared “until he talked to a lawyer.”(6) The phrase “Send an ambulance” says that the caller does not want anyone to die.
    When the police arrive, they will want a more elaborate statement; this should consist only of:
    1. He attacked me.
    2. I will sign a complaint.
    3. There is the evidence.
    4. I WANT A LAWYER.

    Good Advice.
    This restates part of the 911 call and points out critical evidence. One cannot expect the “CSI” team to be called out to pick up every fiber and hair. If a real forensic team routinely conducted the investigations shown on television, its budget would last about a week.
    The demand for a lawyer is both the best thing one can do, and a damaging statement. Anyone who is questioned by police has the right to a lawyer; this includes victims. The problem is that the police, and potential jurors, take a demand for a lawyer as evidence of something to hide. To compound the problem, the victim’s decision to remain silent and demand for a lawyer can be used again him or her in court. In the criminal system, one does not have rights, until arrested; it doesn’t have to make sense, it’s just the law. It is a left-handed fortune that people who act in self-defense are routinely arrested. It may be called something else such as “detained” or given the “Alice in Wonderland” explanation “You’re being handcuffed for your own protection.” Whenever a person is not allowed to leave, he is placed under arrest regardless of descriptive terms. If one is arrested, generations of TV shows advise us to remain silent.

    Western Missouri Shooters Alliance President Sheila Stokes-Begley employs a cell phone and CZ75 compact.
    If the circumstances are ambivalent, simply state a fear of being sued, and demand a lawyer to protect against frivolous litigation. Bernard Goetz was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting of four thugs on the subway, but was sued for $43 million and lost. Police are frequently sued by criminals and the explanation is likely to ring a bell.
    Self-defense cases bring out the curious, the media in the forefront. Comments to friends will be confused and used against you, comments to family will be mistaken and used against you. Both family and friends can be subpoenaed and forced to testify against you. Comments to the media will be sensationalized and this is never good. The New York City prosecutor’s office had determined not to charge Bernard Goetz, until he made unwise remarks to the news media. At some point a statement must be made. The impression is that the earlier a statement is made, the more reliable it is. In reality, the earlier a statement is made, the less reliable it is. The effects of stress will confuse the statement and even cause temporary amnesia. Inaccuracies in the initial statement will convince authorities that the survivor is both a liar and a murderer. A lawyer must be immediately engaged to organize the statement.
    A lawyer is a professional storyteller. He will not tell the client how to lie, he will tell him how to tell the truth, a more complicated process than most imagine. The statement must contain facts which track the elements of self-defense. In the case of defense of home or defense of other persons, there may be other elements as well. Knowledge of the assailant’s reputation for violence would certainly be relevant. The most important element to include is fear. A police statement is no place for macho posturing. One cannot use violence against another person unless in fear of life or limb. The survivor must go over every detail of why he or she was terrified, weak-kneed, pants-******* afraid. If one does foul one’s pants, a not uncommon event, make sure that goes into the statement. No matter how ineffective a storyteller the survivor might be, the jury is sure to believe that.
    (1)1 A City Marshal is a law enforcement officer position used in Third and Fourth Class towns in Missouri.
    (2) State v Beeler, 12 S.W.3d 294 (Mo. 2000) at 296.
    (3) State v Kinder, 942 S.W.2d 313 (Mo en banc 1996) at 325.
    (4) State v Six, 805 S.W.2d 159 (Mo. Ban. 1991) at 167.
    (5) Taken from the Western Missouri Shooters Alliance “Stay Out of Jail” card, see http://www.WMSA.net.
    (6) A claim I have heard, even when false.
    Kevin L. Jamison is an attorney in the Kansas City Missouri area concentrating in the area of weapons and self-defense.
    This information is for legal information purposes and does not constitute legal advice. For specific questions you should consult a qualified attorney.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    Great advice. Thank you for posting.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/44339.html
    "11 Reasons to Remain Silent.."

    There's 4 pages of why some of our members believe all you should do is give the Lawyer statement and literally remain absolutely silent. I've been speaking to the contrary. Your article further goes to re-enforce my sentiment.



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    cscitney87 wrote:
    Great advice. Thank you for posting.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/44339.html
    "11 Reasons to Remain Silent.."

    There's 4 pages of why some of our members believe all you should do is give the Lawyer statement and literally remain absolutely silent. I've been speaking to the contrary. Your article further goes to re-enforce my sentiment.

    I think remaining silent after you give them all the (necessary) answers can be a good and bad thing depending on the situation. Yet when gun owners talk to the police they must not come off combatant with the answers they give, you must be polite and respectful even if the police are in the wrong.. It will pay off if it ever goes to court.

    That being said it depends on why the police are there, a person calling in a MWAG, being pulled over or you call them because you shot a bad guy. I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    refusing to answer is not rude, it is an assertion of your 4th ammendment right. your refusal to answer cannot legally be used against you. everything thing you do say can be used against you. the extent of my conversation with a cop will be

    1) am i being detained?

    2) am i free to go?

    3) i do not consent to any searches

    4) i'd like to talk to a lawyer

    the potential problems with employing this tactic do not even come close to the potential problems of continuing a conversation with a LEO. if you are arrested and you are innocent, you will have legal counsel and there is nothing you have done that can be used against you. it may be a pain in the ass, but a lot less painful than dealing with the potential alternative. cops know the law, and they know when they can make something stick and when they can't. refusing to play into their game is not something that can be made to "stick". If you broke the law, you are going to have to deal with the consequences. If you didn't, then don't put up with their bull****.

    if i shot someone in self defense, i would wait for the cops, i'd lay down my gun, i would give identifying information, and i would ask for a lawyer before giving a statement. thats it. no more, no less.

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    here is my statement.....I want a Lawyer:X NOW !!!
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    I find it amazing that we have posters here who know better than lawyers.

    Folks, do not discuss any details of a case the police will be investigating unless you first speak with a lawyer. Period. Do not consent to any searches. Do not consent to the seizure of your property or your self. Of course, do not resist forcible seizures.

    Have your voice recorder running.

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    I find it amazing that a grown man would automatically make assumptions about the profession and skill set of other individuals.

    Judge a book by its cover, much?

    You don't think I am a lawyer. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Same goes for other posters. Or perhaps we are law school understudies. Or perhaps Mother is a distinguished lawyer.

    But hey... there couldn't possibly be any lawyers on OCDO, right Eye? We're just not ______ enough to be lawyers. Or do you think that every lawyer on the website likes to point out that he or she is a lawyer? I'm sure there's quite a few lurking around that you've never thought twice about.

    I'm just saying.. don't judge people like that. Also, just because one is not practicing law does not mean one is not thoroughly educated in the law.

    Thanks to the Original Poster. Very reasonable in your posting. I'm glad we agree that there are words to be spoken.

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    zack991 wrote:
    That being said it depends on why the police are there, a person calling in a MWAG, being pulled over or you call them because you shot a bad guy. I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    As bomber pointed out, anything you say can be used against you in court. Even if you did not actually commit a crime, your words can be twisted (intentionally or otherwise) and used against you later.

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    4angrybadgers wrote:
    zack991 wrote:
    That being said it depends on why the police are there, a person calling in a MWAG, being pulled over or you call them because you shot a bad guy. I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    As bomber pointed out, anything you say can be used against you in court. Even if you did not actually commit a crime, your words can be twisted (intentionally or otherwise) and used against you later.

    the more you say, the more you will end up having to defend in court


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    cscitney87 wrote:
    I find it amazing that a grown man would automatically make assumptions about the profession and skill set of other individuals.

    Judge a book by its cover, much?

    You don't think I am a lawyer. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Same goes for other posters. Or perhaps we are law school understudies. Or perhaps Mother is a distinguished lawyer.

    But hey... there couldn't possibly be any lawyers on OCDO, right Eye? We're just not ______ enough to be lawyers. Or do you think that every lawyer on the website likes to point out that he or she is a lawyer? I'm sure there's quite a few lurking around that you've never thought twice about.

    I'm just saying.. don't judge people like that. Also, just because one is not practicing law does not mean one is not thoroughly educated in the law.

    Thanks to the Original Poster. Very reasonable in your posting. I'm glad we agree that there are words to be spoken.
    You are a lawyer, or you are not. Say that you are, or say that you are not. Don't play message board games.

    I don't believe for a second that you are. However, if you are, you are not one that I'd ever hire. You give dangerous legal advice.

    If I am correct that you are not, the letters IANAL are ones you should use. A lot.

    BTW, IANAL. I won't play games.

    Folks, the guy in the video IS a lawyer. He has years of experience defending folks who have and have not talked to the police. He knows what he is talking about. I strongly recommend NOT taking the advice of a message board poster playing an "am-I-a-lawyer-or-am-I-not?" game--whether he is or he isn't.

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    bomber wrote:
    4angrybadgers wrote:
    zack991 wrote:
    That being said it depends on why the police are there, a person calling in a MWAG, being pulled over or you call them because you shot a bad guy. I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    As bomber pointed out, anything you say can be used against you in court. Even if you did not actually commit a crime, your words can be twisted (intentionally or otherwise) and used against you later.

    the more you say, the more you will end up having to defend in court
    I am not saying give them your entire life story and your true thoughts that you are playing inside your head. All I am saying is if for example you call the police for a dead robber in your home. You only give them the necessary facts and watch what & how you phrase your wording in the report. Saying I hope the puck bleeds out and dies is going to get you into some trouble, even though many of us and the cop could be thinking the same thing. Giving the police the only the "necessary" things is not a bad thing for people who can control their tongue.

    People who can't are best shutting up all together. Its when gun owners go rambling off what they think happened, wish happened or go way more into the little details that get gun owners into trouble. Stick with the simple facts YOU KNOW, DO NOT guess what you thought happened or opening your mouth in saying what you hope happens or any macho bull SH&T comments. If you cant do this then **** and call your attorney.

    I have had countless good run in's with Warren, Niles, Howland, Youngstown, Liberty, Boardman police when I open carry or the few instances when I had to draw my firearm. In all the cases I was never charged or had my firearm taken from me other then running my serial number. Simply gave them 100% facts with out the macho BS and followed all their commands. I did not refuse to give them my name, refuse to follow their commands and not a single run in with the police was I handcuffed or belittled. There are times it is best to just give your name, ID and shut your trap though and for those who let the mouths run, do it every-time.

    When cops are called with MWG it is not the time to try and school the police or make them look like idiots.


    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    "Giving the police the only the "necessary" things is not a bad thing for people who can control their tongue.

    People who can't are best shutting up all together."

    Couldn't have said it better myself.

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    zack991 wrote:
    I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    So exercising your rights is considered arrogant by you? WTF?!

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    Folks, do NOT take advice from all the IANALs here. Take the advice of a lawyer:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7N...eature=related

    I know that many of you have seen this video before. Some of you haven't. If you haven't, you do not yet have credit for Talking to Lawyers 101 and it is a required course.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    zack991 wrote:
    I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    So exercising your rights is considered arrogant by you? WTF?!
    Thus the problem with the many mindset in our nation. I can't tell you how many times I've been labeled uncooperative by the police for simply trying to excercise my rights.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Nutczak wrote:
    zack991 wrote:
    I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    So exercising your rights is considered arrogant by you? WTF?!
    I kinda wondered about the apparent contradiction in the OP quote: self-defense shooters often get arrested, yet give the police information. Huh? If you are getting arrested anyway, why make any statement?

    Nonetheless, I am in Ayoob's camp about making certain utterances and then shutting the heck up. One compelling point by Ayoob was to be sure to point out evidence to the cops because cops might overlook it.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    eye95 wrote:
    Folks, do NOT take advice from all the IANALs here. Take the advice of a lawyer:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7N...eature=related

    I know that many of you have seen this video before. Some of you haven't. If you haven't, you do not yet have credit for Talking to Lawyers 101 and it is a required course.
    Now why would attorneys rather have you Lawyer Up and Remain Silent?

    Oh that's right.. Because attorneys get PAID $$ every time somebody can't talk to the police their damn self.

    Duh.. it's in the attorneys best interest for you to shut up and not say a word.. They love telling everyone to "Remain Silent until you've spoken with at attorney."

    Is that really how life goes down? Nope.

    Next MWAG call and you have a LEO's firearm pointed at your chest...you will re-think the whole remaining silent thing. As mentioned before.. throughout all of our "MWAG Call" threads there hasn't been a single (not one) instance of a forum member throwing the lawyer statement and walking away Scott free. If you don't talk.. you're going to be suspect. That's how OC is..... Lawfully or not.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Not to be trite, but technically any evidence you point out can't be used to help you, can it?
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    mcdonalk wrote:
    Not to be trite, but technically any evidence you point out can't be used to help you, can it?
    A piece of physical evidence can be used. What you say cannot be used to help you in court. It is hearsay.

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    eye95 wrote:
    mcdonalk wrote:
    Not to be trite, but technically any evidence you point out can't be used to help you, can it?
    A piece of physical evidence can be used. What you say cannot be used to help you in court. It is hearsay.
    But it can be used against you, trust me been there.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    mcdonalk wrote:
    Not to be trite, but technically any evidence you point out can't be used to help you, can it?
    A piece of physical evidence can be used. What you say cannot be used to help you in court. It is hearsay.
    But it can be used against you, trust me been there.
    And that is the number 1 reason (from the video) not to talk to the cops. "Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law, but nothing you say can be used for you in that same court." Of course, Miranda warnings don't include that second part.

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:
    zack991 wrote:
    I think if you have not committed any crime then there is zero reason to be silent. Simply gun owner need to be careful in how and what you tell police, verses coming on an a arrogant gun owner who refuses to say nothing to the police. A good way a person can turn an innocent miss understanding to a full blow legal battle because they chose to be rude and refusing to answer ANY honest questions.
    So exercising your rights is considered arrogant by you? WTF?!
    Thus the problem with the many mindset in our nation. I can't tell you how many times I've been labeled uncooperative by the police for simply trying to exercise my rights.
    What I am saying is i see a lot people from the many videos and personal experience that they will refuse to give their names or follow any of the police commands, yet have no problem trying to show their superiority in their knowledge of the gun laws. Some people who feel the need to try and out smart the police on what they can and cant do. Even though in most cases they are right according to the law they feel the need to make a public scene then waiting for their day in court. In turn they just get charged for other things because they can not control their tonged.

    I am not saying this is everyone, but far too many think this is a valid way to fight police that are uninformed as to what the law says. Instead of the open carry movent be seen as a calm, correlative group, many see us the other way around. When some gun owners lash out at the police when stopped yet refuse to answer any simple questions, Name, ID. Yet will ramble off what the police are doing is illegal we are seen as combative and uncooperative.
    '

    I am not saying you should give up your rights or answer every or any questions. I am saying if your going to not give them your name, ID or answer any simple question then do not make a scene, wait for your day in court. Simple say what I am doing is perfectly legal and nothing I am doing is illegal. If you chose to say nothing else such as your name or give them a ID that is fine, then say nothing else.

    Do not go rambling on. It will be that much more the police will try to use against you in court and that much more you have to defend. When being asked by the police when stopped is not the time to show your superiority in the knowledge of what the law say. When it goes to court, that will be the right time to embarrass the police on their lack of Knowledge of the law not on the side of the road.


    I should have worded it better, people who exercising their rights to remain silent are not arrogant, but those who refuse to answer any question the police ask them yet continue to speak in hopes of embarrassing the police in their lack of knowledge of the law is arrogant.

    We only need to state that what we are doing is 100% legal and do not fall into their trap of baiting you to continue to ramble on. If people are going to remain silent then stay silent do not try to prove your case on the side of the road.


    Cliff notes version.
    If your going to remain silent, then do so. Do not try your case on the side of the road when it will only add to the case against you. Do not come off as arrogant telling them all the laws they are breaking by stopping us, yet refuse to answer and simple questions. Don't come off as an ass to the police even if they are to you, let that work for you. Do not make a scene like so many feel they have too, that will work against you in court.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    mcdonalk wrote:
    Not to be trite, but technically any evidence you point out can't be used to help you, can it?
    A piece of physical evidence can be used. What you say cannot be used to help you in court. It is hearsay.
    But it can be used against you, trust me been there.
    And that is the number 1 reason (from the video) not to talk to the cops. "Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law, but nothing you say can be used for you in that same court." Of course, Miranda warnings don't include that second part.
    I would say the same would go for "evidence" of course if some evidence might disappear like a witness leaving the scene point them out. But otherwise let your lawyer handle it. Loose lips sink ships.

    I'm not encouraging being an asshat to the officers, and you can remain civil without giving up your rights. Nowsome officers (majority of the ones I have encountered) I have encountered do not remain civil when you refuse to "cooperate" with them. That needs to change hearing in court how you were "uncooperative" and have the judge glare at you like you did something wrong. Even if you are totally in the right.

    That is a cultural police thing we need to change. Police need to be trained mentally not feel insulted when someone doesn't "cooperate" with them.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    mcdonalk wrote:
    Not to be trite, but technically any evidence you point out can't be used to help you, can it?
    The evidence that you point out wouldbe used to identify the actions of the criminal against you. Like, "that guy kicked down that door [pointing towards the door with the frame busted out] and came at me with that hatchet [point at hatchet laying on the floor]. I was afraid for my life."



  25. #25
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    buster81 wrote:
    mcdonalk wrote:
    Not to be trite, but technically any evidence you point out can't be used to help you, can it?
    The evidence that you point out wouldbe used to identify the actions of the criminal against you. Like, "that guy kicked down that door [pointing towards the door with the frame busted out] and came at me with that hatchet [point at hatchet laying on the floor]. I was afraid for my life."

    That would be your statement. What if the investigators found evidence you left out or didn't notice? What if the evidence you point out doesn't match your statement exactly?

    As for witnesses, you can't hold them against their will. If they stick around long enough and want to talk to the cops their testimony can be used against you too. Maybe it's best to just let the cops question everyone and not direct them towards certain people...

    What about everyone else? Do you think it's better to let the police examine their own evidence or to try to point it out to them?
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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