Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: in state firearm transfer

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Gloucester, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848

    Post imported post

    Pagan wrote:
    Â*Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.
    Depends on how you ship. FedEx is No and So us USPS. I think UPS is ok. The police probabably won't LIE but they probably don't know.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358

    Post imported post

    The USPS will ship long guns, but they won't touch handguns.

    FedEx will only ship handguns to an FFL or a manufacturer.

    Why can't you just meet the buyer halfway and do a FTF transaction?

    Personally, I wouldn't trust UPS with anything more valuable than a box of cupcakes. If it gets there at all, it will probably be damaged...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85

    Post imported post

    Pagan wrote:
    Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.

    Thats a nice statement since most police i know will not give out legal advice because of this. Dispensing legal advice if you are not a licensed attorney is a Class 1 misdemeanor in VA. (VA Code Section 54.1-3904)


    But i guess saying they will lie makes some feel better.


  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Gloucester, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    Actually it does not make me feel better, in fact I would like to believe that cops would never decieve a citizen about anything, but we all know that is not the case.

    I give trust when earned.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85

    Post imported post

    I understand about the trust and i agree with that 100%. I just see new people come here and ask questions about open carry and get alot of responses about police and they are 90% negative. The last one that comes to mind was a person came here talking about he was going to open carry at an event coming up is there anything he should know or need and the first response was get a recorder.

    Not everyone has negative experiences with the police but the responses and comments this guy received made it seem like ALL police were bad. Its like having the wife drag you to a romance movie when you would rather see Die Hard 36 you have already started the night bad by not wanting to be there, then you have 5 people comment about the movie and say how horrible it was and you shouldnt go. You have already had the negative comments stored in your brain and its alot harder to over come that.

    I see alot of people here comment about how they educated 3 or 4 people at a business about open carry but its very rare to see comments about how some helped educate a police officer or even had a good run in with one. Maybe if this were to happen there would be alot less negative experiences with the police. Even if a police stop starts out bad the people here can help educate them so someone else will not have the same problem. And yes i know there are some know it alls that dont want to be educated by someone thats not a LEO but at least we can try.

  7. #7
    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , Virginia, USA
    Posts
    302

    Post imported post

    Pagan wrote:
    Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.
    Try here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

    (Unlicensed-person) refers to a non-FFL holder.

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373

    Post imported post

    The answer is, yes you may. But there are wrinkles you have to know about.

    First thing is that youought to have an affidavit from the purchaser asserting under oath that he is eligible to receive possession of the firearm. My bill of sale form posted on this site will function as such. Youought to have the signed original in your hands before you ship the gun. It's a good idea to require that it be notarized unless you know the purchaser personally, since a notary will check I.D. to make sure the person signing is who he says he is.

    The second thing is that you can't send it through the mail unless it's a long gun, unloaded, and shipped with no ammunition. Best to remove the bolt, slide, or anything else that can be easily removed, or at least shipped with the action open or locked with a cable lock (you can include the keys with it). That's so that when (notice I didn't say, "IF"?) they X-Ray the package, they can tell immediately that there's no risk of it's going off during shipment.

    Anything that cannot be mailed can be shipped via UPS or FedEx. It is illegal to put anything on the outside of the box to indicate that there is a firearm inside, but you are required to give the carrier notice of the contents.

    http://virginialegaldefense.com/COAr...ransferBOS.pdf
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    You know, one aspect of this that may be somewhat ironic...

    If one were to ship priority overnight via one of these common carriers, especially to the opposite end of the state, I think it's quite possible the package would route through an air hub that is out of state.

    I bet that stews the BATFE all kinds of mean.

    TFred


  10. #10
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Post imported post

    Immunity clause?

    If something is legal where you start and where you end, as long as you don't break the law in between, it's lawful. Like driving through Maryland.

    If a properly packaged and laded firearm leaves one location and remains packaged until it arrives at its destination then it may as well never exist in the interim location.

    But, I agree... if they COULD get their grubby mitts involved somehow and make more ill-gotten money off of the serfs, I'm sure that they would.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    Anything that cannot be mailed can be shipped via UPS or FedEx.
    not FedEx..

    http://fedex.com/us/services/terms/#app17

    1. FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
      1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
      2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
    2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.
    3. Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.
    4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
    5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
    6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
    7. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.

    I know a guy that shipped a FIREARM to HIMSELF (because he did not want to fly with it) and had to pick it back up at the sending location when he returned.. (Dumb I know).
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580

    Post imported post

    ed wrote:
    user wrote:
    Anything that cannot be mailed can be shipped via UPS or FedEx.
    not FedEx..

    http://fedex.com/us/services/terms/#app17
    1. FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
      1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
      2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
    2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.
    3. Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.
    4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
    5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
    6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
    7. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.
    I know a guy that shipped a FIREARM to HIMSELF (because he did not want to fly with it) and had to pick it back up at the sending location when he returned.. (Dumb I know).
    That doesn't make it illegal Ed, only against company policy.

  13. #13
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,553

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    ...you have to have an affidavit from the purchaser asserting under oath that he is eligible to receive possession of the firearm. .... You have to have the signed original in your hands before you ship the gun.
    I don't believe these claims are true.

    Do you have a cite?



  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373

    Post imported post

    Badly written - revised to say "ought".

    Here's another thing - the rule requires the use of a "common carrier". I haven'tresearched that issue, yet, and as to the fedex thing, I don't care what their policies are, I'm only talking about the federal regulatory scheme. At common law, the definition of a "common carrier" was basically one person who gets paid for transporting stuff for the public at large. Sort of like the "innkeeper rule", anyone who showed up with the required cash could ship whatever he wanted to, and the common carrier couldn't say "no". So I'm not sure Fed Ex IS a common carrier, and I'm not sure whether federal regulation of common carriers makes any difference for intrastate transfers. I'm thinking that you could hire a courier service to ship a gun within the state. Again, this is thinking "out loud", as it were, and I haven't researched the issue.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  15. #15
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,553

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    Badly written - revised to say "ought".
    Gotcha. Thanks.



  16. #16
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    Badly written - revised to say "ought".

    Here's another thing - the rule requires the use of a "common carrier". I haven'tresearched that issue, yet, and as to the fedex thing, I don't care what their policies are, I'm only talking about the federal regulatory scheme. At common law, the definition of a "common carrier" was basically one person who gets paid for transporting stuff for the public at large. Sort of like the "innkeeper rule", anyone who showed up with the required cash could ship whatever he wanted to, and the common carrier couldn't say "no". So I'm not sure Fed Ex IS a common carrier, and I'm not sure whether federal regulation of common carriers makes any difference for intrastate transfers. I'm thinking that you could hire a courier service to ship a gun within the state. Again, this is thinking "out loud", as it were, and I haven't researched the issue.
    We're having a local issue here in Fredericksburg with CSX (the train folks) who are essentially storing tanker cars filled with ethanol and chlorine in a small train yard only yards away from a residential subdivision. I've attended some of the city council meetings where this issue has been addressed, and CSX has made a couple claims to explain their actions.
    1. They are a common carrier, and as such, they are not legally entitled to refuse a properly packaged shipment (in this case that means a properly functioning tanker car).

    2. Apparently a railroad car is not "in storage" until it has sat for 48 hours, not counting weekends or holidays. So these cars can be parked for up to four or five days at a time, and are legally considered "in transit" the entire time they are next to these houses, and there is nothing that can be done about it at a local level.
    Of course the interesting and "on topic" part of this story is the claim that they make as a common carrier, being unable to refuse a properly packed shipment. I would certainly argue that a couple hundred thousand gallons of chlorine is a lot more dangerous than an unloaded and properly packed handgun.

    So... I suppose if all else fails... buy yourself a box car, and give CSX a call.

    TFred

    ETFix mangled words.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373

    Post imported post

    Look up the "action for private nuisance" on the Internet. Anything that affects the homeowners' use and enjoyment of their own property is a nuisance. I'd ask for an injunction against filling tank cars with toxic materials in the residential neighborhood. I wonder how the facility is zoned and whether the zoning allows storage and transfers of toxic materials.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    Look up the "action for private nuisance" on the Internet. Anything that affects the homeowners' use and enjoyment of their own property is a nuisance. I'd ask for an injunction against filling tank cars with toxic materials in the residential neighborhood. I wonder how the facility is zoned and whether the zoning allows storage and transfers of toxic materials.
    Interesting idea. It's not really a facility, and they don't do anything with the cars (like loading or unloading). The only real problem is the risk inherent in storing the hazardous materials just a few yards from a residential area, so I don't know if that would pass a definition for affecting use or enjoyment. It's just an area of the main north-south CSX rail lines where they have added 3 or 4 extra tracks for switching, and it happens to be adjacent to a small subdivision.

    You can see the area in question here. The subdivision is nestled between two industrial parks... so there probably isn't going to be a long term solution that satisfies the residents.

    TFred


  19. #19
    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Henrico, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    697

    Post imported post

    I have had 2 firearms returned direct to my houseafter warranty service. I have no doubt that FedEX knew they picked up firearms at Taurus in Miami. They do try to insist on overnight service. That appears to be policy not law.
    Appleseed, Virginia State Coordinator
    Are you a Rifleman yet?
    http://appleseedinfo.org

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Norfolk, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,000

    Post imported post

    Any time I've had to send my firearms someplace, it was always with UPS and I had to go to a certain store to do so. Just had to fill out a form and it was loaded up ina standard box, no markings beyond what was necessary for a typical package movingthrough their network.

    Quick, easy, and convenient.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Gloucester, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    Well I bought a Romanian AK from a guy like 3 hours away, from GunBroker, and he sent it via UPS yesterday and it is scheduled for delivery today:celebrate. I only paid 500 for it. It has the dimpled reciever, side mounted optics rail, cleaning rod, bayonet, pistol grip, and wood stock set. I believe the barrel is threaded also, if not it will be!

    And he said the front sight block was straight and not canted like the Wasr's are famous for, so I dopn't think it's a Wasr, hell might be pre-ban, either way, I think it was a good deal, I was gonna get a PLR-16 but decided the AK was more practical. Now I'm on the hunt for a new generation P95... anybody?

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580

    Post imported post

    Pagan wrote:
    Well I bought a Romanian AK from a guy like 3 hours away, from GunBroker, and he sent it via UPS yesterday and it is scheduled for delivery today:celebrate. I only paid 500 for it. It has the dimpled reciever, side mounted optics rail, cleaning rod, bayonet, pistol grip, and wood stock set. I believe the barrel is threaded also, if not it will be!

    And he said the front sight block was straight and not canted like the Wasr's are famous for, so I dopn't think it's a Wasr, hell might be pre-ban, either way, I think it was a good deal, I was gonna get a PLR-16 but decided the AK was more practical. Now I'm on the hunt for a new generation P95... anybody?
    Gee...It's a shame you're not excited about it.:celebrate

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Gloucester, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    Here is my "mail order" gun,lol.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •