in state firearm transfer

imported post

Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.

imported post

Pagan wrote:

 Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.

Click to expand...

Depends on how you ship. FedEx is No and So us USPS. I think UPS is ok. The police probabably won't LIE but they probably don't know.

imported post

The USPS will ship long guns, but they won't touch handguns.

FedEx will only ship handguns to an FFL or a manufacturer.

Why can't you just meet the buyer halfway and do a FTF transaction?

Personally, I wouldn't trust UPS with anything more valuable than a box of cupcakes. If it gets there at all, it will probably be damaged...

imported post

Pagan wrote:

Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.

Click to expand...

Thats a nice statement since most police i know will not give out legal advice because of this. Dispensing legal advice if you are not a licensed attorney is a Class 1 misdemeanor in VA. (VA Code Section 54.1-3904)


But i guess saying they will lie makes some feel better.

imported post

Actually it does not make me feel better, in fact I would like to believe that cops would never decieve a citizen about anything, but we all know that is not the case.

I give trust when earned.

imported post

I understand about the trust and i agree with that 100%. I just see new people come here and ask questions about open carry and get alot of responses about police and they are 90% negative. The last one that comes to mind was a person came here talking about he was going to open carry at an event coming up is there anything he should know or need and the first response was get a recorder.

Not everyone has negative experiences with the police but the responses and comments this guy received made it seem like ALL police were bad. Its like having the wife drag you to a romance movie when you would rather see Die Hard 36 you have already started the night bad by not wanting to be there, then you have 5 people comment about the movie and say how horrible it was and you shouldnt go. You have already had the negative comments stored in your brain and its alot harder to over come that.

I see alot of people here comment about how they educated 3 or 4 people at a business about open carry but its very rare to see comments about how some helped educate a police officer or even had a good run in with one. Maybe if this were to happen there would be alot less negative experiences with the police. Even if a police stop starts out bad the people here can help educate them so someone else will not have the same problem. And yes i know there are some know it alls that dont want to be educated by someone thats not a LEO but at least we can try.

imported post

Pagan wrote:

Hey all, is it legal to ship a private firearm to another va. citizen "in state" without using an ffl? I think it is, but not really sure who to ask, I know don't call the police, they will probably lie.

Click to expand...

Try here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

(Unlicensed-person) refers to a non-FFL holder.

imported post

The answer is, yes you may. But there are wrinkles you have to know about.

First thing is that youought to have an affidavit from the purchaser asserting under oath that he is eligible to receive possession of the firearm. My bill of sale form posted on this site will function as such. Youought to have the signed original in your hands before you ship the gun. It's a good idea to require that it be notarized unless you know the purchaser personally, since a notary will check I.D. to make sure the person signing is who he says he is.

The second thing is that you can't send it through the mail unless it's a long gun, unloaded, and shipped with no ammunition. Best to remove the bolt, slide, or anything else that can be easily removed, or at least shipped with the action open or locked with a cable lock (you can include the keys with it). That's so that when (notice I didn't say, "IF"?) they X-Ray the package, they can tell immediately that there's no risk of it's going off during shipment.

Anything that cannot be mailed can be shipped via UPS or FedEx. It is illegal to put anything on the outside of the box to indicate that there is a firearm inside, but you are required to give the carrier notice of the contents.

http://virginialegaldefense.com/COArmory/PvtHandgunTransferBOS.pdf

imported post

You know, one aspect of this that may be somewhat ironic...

If one were to ship priority overnight via one of these common carriers, especially to the opposite end of the state, I think it's quite possible the package would route through an air hub that is out of state.

I bet that stews the BATFE all kinds of mean.

TFred

imported post

Immunity clause?

If something is legal where you start and where you end, as long as you don't break the law in between, it's lawful. Like driving through Maryland.

If a properly packaged and laded firearm leaves one location and remains packaged until it arrives at its destination then it may as well never exist in the interim location.

But, I agree... if they COULD get their grubby mitts involved somehow and make more ill-gotten money off of the serfs, I'm sure that they would.

imported post

user wrote:

Anything that cannot be mailed can be shipped via UPS or FedEx.

Click to expand...

not FedEx..

http://fedex.com/us/services/terms/#app17

1. FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
   1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
   2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.
3. Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.
4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
7. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.

I know a guy that shipped a FIREARM to HIMSELF (because he did not want to fly with it) and had to pick it back up at the sending location when he returned.. (Dumb I know).

imported post

ed wrote:

user wrote:

Anything that cannot be mailed can be shipped via UPS or FedEx.

Click to expand...

not FedEx..

http://fedex.com/us/services/terms/#app17

Click to expand...

1. FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:

   Click to expand...

   1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or

      Click to expand...

   2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

      Click to expand...

2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.

   Click to expand...

3. Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.

   Click to expand...

4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.

   Click to expand...

5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.

   Click to expand...

6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.

   Click to expand...

7. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.

   Click to expand...

I know a guy that shipped a FIREARM to HIMSELF (because he did not want to fly with it) and had to pick it back up at the sending location when he returned.. (Dumb I know).

Click to expand...

That doesn't make it illegal Ed, only against company policy.

imported post

user wrote:

...you have to have an affidavit from the purchaser asserting under oath that he is eligible to receive possession of the firearm. .... You have to have the signed original in your hands before you ship the gun.

Click to expand...

I don't believe these claims are true.

Do you have a cite?

imported post

Badly written - revised to say "ought".

Here's another thing - the rule requires the use of a "common carrier". I haven'tresearched that issue, yet, and as to the fedex thing, I don't care what their policies are, I'm only talking about the federal regulatory scheme. At common law, the definition of a "common carrier" was basically one person who gets paid for transporting stuff for the public at large. Sort of like the "innkeeper rule", anyone who showed up with the required cash could ship whatever he wanted to, and the common carrier couldn't say "no". So I'm not sure Fed Ex IS a common carrier, and I'm not sure whether federal regulation of common carriers makes any difference for intrastate transfers. I'm thinking that you could hire a courier service to ship a gun within the state. Again, this is thinking "out loud", as it were, and I haven't researched the issue.

imported post

user wrote:

Badly written - revised to say "ought".

Click to expand...

Gotcha. Thanks.

imported post

user wrote:

Badly written - revised to say "ought".

Here's another thing - the rule requires the use of a "common carrier". I haven'tresearched that issue, yet, and as to the fedex thing, I don't care what their policies are, I'm only talking about the federal regulatory scheme. At common law, the definition of a "common carrier" was basically one person who gets paid for transporting stuff for the public at large. Sort of like the "innkeeper rule", anyone who showed up with the required cash could ship whatever he wanted to, and the common carrier couldn't say "no". So I'm not sure Fed Ex IS a common carrier, and I'm not sure whether federal regulation of common carriers makes any difference for intrastate transfers. I'm thinking that you could hire a courier service to ship a gun within the state. Again, this is thinking "out loud", as it were, and I haven't researched the issue.

Click to expand...

We're having a local issue here in Fredericksburg with CSX (the train folks) who are essentially storing tanker cars filled with ethanol and chlorine in a small train yard only yards away from a residential subdivision. I've attended some of the city council meetings where this issue has been addressed, and CSX has made a couple claims to explain their actions. Of course the interesting and "on topic" part of this story is the claim that they make as a common carrier, being unable to refuse a properly packed shipment. I would certainly argue that a couple hundred thousand gallons of chlorine is a lot more dangerous than an unloaded and properly packed handgun.

So... I suppose if all else fails... buy yourself a box car, and give CSX a call.

TFred

ETFix mangled words.

imported post

Look up the "action for private nuisance" on the Internet. Anything that affects the homeowners' use and enjoyment of their own property is a nuisance. I'd ask for an injunction against filling tank cars with toxic materials in the residential neighborhood. I wonder how the facility is zoned and whether the zoning allows storage and transfers of toxic materials.

imported post

user wrote:

Look up the "action for private nuisance" on the Internet. Anything that affects the homeowners' use and enjoyment of their own property is a nuisance. I'd ask for an injunction against filling tank cars with toxic materials in the residential neighborhood. I wonder how the facility is zoned and whether the zoning allows storage and transfers of toxic materials.

Click to expand...

Interesting idea. It's not really a facility, and they don't do anything with the cars (like loading or unloading). The only real problem is the risk inherent in storing the hazardous materials just a few yards from a residential area, so I don't know if that would pass a definition for affecting use or enjoyment. It's just an area of the main north-south CSX rail lines where they have added 3 or 4 extra tracks for switching, and it happens to be adjacent to a small subdivision.

You can see the area in question here. The subdivision is nestled between two industrial parks... so there probably isn't going to be a long term solution that satisfies the residents.

TFred

imported post

I have had 2 firearms returned direct to my houseafter warranty service. I have no doubt that FedEX knew they picked up firearms at Taurus in Miami. They do try to insist on overnight service. That appears to be policy not law.

imported post

Any time I've had to send my firearms someplace, it was always with UPS and I had to go to a certain store to do so. Just had to fill out a form and it was loaded up ina standard box, no markings beyond what was necessary for a typical package movingthrough their network.

Quick, easy, and convenient.