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Thread: Scary Target Encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    I had a scary encounter with a man at target in Everett today. Me and a friend were going shopping, talking about permits for certain states as he was curious. We get to the shoe section and he proceeds to go about his business. As I am looking at a pair of potential hiking shoes the man in question takes one look at my side and the following dialouge ensues (to the best of my knowledge):

    Man: What is that? Points to my side
    Me: Oh, that is my gun.
    Man: What do you carry that around for?
    Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
    Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
    Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
    Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
    Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
    Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?
    Me: Walk away, no amount of verbal abuse constitutes the justification for use of lethal force
    Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy
    Me: I would report you to management and the police sir, my life would not be in danger.
    Man: What would I have to do to get you to pull that thing
    Me: You would have to pull a deadly weapon and even then I would have options before firing.

    At this point I can tell he is displeased but the conversation remained civil, it didn't stay that way. A couple of other questions followed but then he gets crazy and starts saying quite loudly:

    Man: Hey everyone this guy has a gun
    Me: Sir could you please quiet down, I am minding my business
    Man: You are trying to get people to come after you, you dont need that
    Me: You don't know that sir and neither do I, and the one making a scene here is you, you are yelling and drawing attention not me.
    Man: You are making a scene, you have a GUN!
    Me: So, I am just going about my day
    Man: With a GUN!
    Me: Sir I have a right to protect myself
    Man: I don't care, what about everyone else in here
    Me: Sir, they don't have a problem, you do, now please I want to go about my business (I attempt to walk away, he follows and pulls a couple aside -- ass)
    Man: Hey, you know he has a gun
    Lady: Yea, so he's not bothering anyone. If he wants to protect himself that is his prerogative, you sir are the problem not him.
    Me: Thank you ma'am have a nice day
    Man: What the hell is your problem, you are being an idiot
    Me: Sir leave me alone, I am within the law, I have every right to be here and you are starting to bother me
    Man: hey people guy with a gun
    Me: (s*#&, gotta leave, try to walk away again, he follows, I was being way too nice, but I HAD TO STAY CALM)
    Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
    Me: (put a firm grip on the handle, yanks away and steps back and exclaim loud enough to bring to attention that a serious situation is developing): "Hey get your hand off my gun"
    Man: What, not allowed to touch it.
    Me: You are lucky I have no desire to throw you in jail, now LEAVE!
    Man: You are trying to be a man, I think you have a small dick
    Me: If you want to talk to management or the police you are within your right to do so, you were out of line and I am not breaking the law.
    Man: **** you man, I will talk to the cops
    Me: fine have a nice day

    (he finally leaves then calls over a store worker)
    Employee: You ok, is there a problem
    Me: ma'am, what is your store policy about open carry of firearms?
    Employee: I don't think its allowed but I am not sure
    Me: Ok, how would you like to proceed?
    Employee: Lets go up to the front, I am not sure, but I will be calling the cops
    Me: I will cooperate fully with you and law enforcement
    Employee: Thank you, calls up a security officer
    Security: Everything ok

    By this time my nerves are frayed and details are sketchy, so I will give the short version: the security officer and the target employee call 911 who then surprisingly tell them that I am ok and within the law and have no problem with me carrying!! They also thanked me for staying calm and being informed about what i was doing, (thank you OCDO!!!!!!) The police were not dispatched and the man got away scott free, but the store was professional about their dealing with me and I told them as such and would be honored to participate in their business. (Oh, I did tell them that the idiot tried to grab my gun and he was being a disturbance and a potential threat to public safety.)

    Thank you guys, all the hard work and study has paid off!
    I will be in Lakewood tomorrow (still no internet, so feel free to respond, it will take a while to get to them)

  2. #2
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Overall, you did well, ACM99.

    I think you stayed with the guy too long. He obviously just wanted to cause trouble and reaching for your gun is definitely over the line. Is that assault?

    Why did he not get charged with something? It's all on camera....

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    acmariner99 wrote:
    I had a scary encounter with a man at target in Everett today. Me and a friend were going shopping, talking about permits for certain states as he was curious. We get to the shoe section and he proceeds to go about his business. As I am looking at a pair of potential hiking shoes the man in question takes one look at my side and the following dialouge ensues (to the best of my knowledge):

    Man: What is that? Points to my side
    Me: Oh, that is my gun.
    Man: What do you carry that around for?
    Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
    Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
    Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
    Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
    Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
    Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?
    I must say you handled everything well.

    Right where I cut off your post is where I would of walked away. That question he asked is unreasonable and irrational.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    I'll take the charge up with management, not sure what they can do, so it wouldn't hurt to try

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Holy Cow!!!! This man broke several laws. Good job remaining calm!

    I think I would have dialed the police though. Not just because the guy is an idiot but what if something did happen? I would want to be on record as being the caller who was in fear.

    Maybe he was a Brady Campaigner front line man trying to provoke something. Phew!!!!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    The call to 911 needs to go in much sooner.
    He is harassing you once he starts to antagonize.
    It is elevated to assault when he grabs for your gun.
    It is rare to run into this kind of a-hole, but when you do, some time in jail will give 'em a new perspective.
    There is no reasoning that will do that in this case.

  7. #7
    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    I appreciate the feedback. I will be talking to target, PD, and a lawyer about charging him, but I dont know how much good it will do as I just walked away -- like I said, Im a nice, guy, maybe too nice.

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    Ya I would have started my Digital Voice Recorder after his second stupid question. Then call the cops when he does not leave me alone. He would have a few broken bones the second he reached for my gun. And the cops would be on the way to pick him up anyways.

    But good job. I would be pretty scared not knowing what he was planing on doing. But reaching for the gun is borderline suicidal and straight up insane.

    I think starting the digital voice recorder would probably scare him. When he asks what that's for I would respond. Its for when the cops come arrest you for harassment it will help put as many charges against you as possible.

  9. #9
    69Charger
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    You should be commended for your patience.
    I tip my hat to you.
    Lets all hope we can stay as composed as this man.
    Dave.

  10. #10
    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    I was going to say the same thing about the voice recorder. Maybe you should go back to that Target and get one (if you don't already have one).

    I look at someone trying to grab my gun as having only one thing on their mind, killing me with my own gun. That situation was potentially very dangerous. That guy clearly had a screw loose. I agree, anyone who tries to grab someone else's gun is either suicidal or trying to kill you.
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    That really sucks. If he'd tried to grab my gun, though, I think he would have gotten an elbow to the face instead of a stern talking to. You would have been well within your rights to use physical force to prevent theft of your weapon. Then call 911 :P

  12. #12
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I think you did a great job but: DO NOT let someone get close enough to almost grab or even to touch the grip of your sidearm. The man reaching for your sidearm is in fact a justifiable shoot. Yes, the trouble that would ensue post shooting would be a legal one for you and you potentially could be dragged through the courts but the move he made was and can be interpreted as a life-threatening move.

    A man that you did not know ignored multiple demands to stay away then reacched for your sidearm. You got away this time. Keep a distance from the next jacka$$ or you might find yourself in a fight for your life...a fight for your sidearm.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  13. #13
    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Wow freakish indeed! - I am glad your ok, and i think you handled it very well. Sounds like walking away was difficult if he was following you, and grabbing for the gun - sheesh, sounds like a good reason to accessorize with pepper spray or something non lethal. It's good you had your wits about you.
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  14. #14
    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    If something like this is to happen, a store like this is the place you want it to happen. Lots of security cameras to record the encounter.
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

    A 1911 that works properly is as rare as a Glock that doesn't.

  15. #15
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    SpyderTattoo wrote:
    I was going to say the same thing about the voice recorder. Maybe you should go back to that Target and get one (if you don't already have one).

    I look at someone trying to grab my gun as having only one thing on their mind, killing me with my own gun. That situation was potentially very dangerous. That guy clearly had a screw loose. I agree, anyone who tries to grab someone else's gun is either suicidal or trying to kill you.
    This brings up a good question, I know this has been discussed before, but maybe this could be a refresher.

    Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?

    Me: Sir are you threatening me? If he is theres another law being broken.

    Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy?

    What if he did, Should we be carrying something else less lethal to stop the threat, or is this why we carry, to stop the threat. (Personally this is one of my biggest fears in not nowing how far someone will go, and if they hit you once, would you be within your rights to draw and try to de escalate the problem, and I know the rule, dont ever draw on something you dont plan on shooting, I hurt to much to try to fight hand to hand anymore) I think we need clearer rules of engagment in this state.

    Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)

    again we should have more recourse, when someone tries to take our weapon.

    It is sad that although we are just going about our day, that we have to be the ones who have to leave or deal with the aftermath

    Kudos to you for you keeping your composure and not being part of the problem.

    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    AC- Gobs and gobs of self-control you have exercised here.

    You may consider carrying a less-than-lethal from here on out...I'd have OCsprayed the piss out of this guy. HE was the one looking for the trouble, and at that point, he would have had it. ESPECIALLY if you had people close enough around to see that you were being victimized.

    Hope to be there tomorrow to shake your hand.

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    Some kind of spray would have been fun.

    Spray him in the face and while he is laying on the floor crying say something like "Sir you are harassing me. If you continue to harass me I will be forced to take action."

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    Glocked and Loaded wrote:
    Some kind of spray would have been fun.

    Spray him in the face and while he is laying on the floor crying say something like "Sir you are harassing me. If you continue to harass me I will be forced to take action."
    Perfect! Then, kick him in the junk and say something about his mother.... :celebrate

  19. #19
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    I know a guy who would probably do something stupid like that.
    Hes afraid of me to begin with so he wouldn't do it to me for his own safety but I have seen him give people crap like that just to see if he can provoke them to do something stupid. And then he talks crap about them because they did not...

    I no longer hang out with that person..

  20. #20
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    Wow that guy wasa nasty piece of work. I would have to say you handled it pretty well. Although I could see if you had some pepper spray maybe a little dose of that would of been warranted. Cheers

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    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
    Glocked and Loaded wrote:
    Some kind of spray would have been fun.

    Spray him in the face and while he is laying on the floor crying say something like "Sir you are harassing me. If you continue to harass me I will be forced to take action."
    Perfect! Then, kick him in the junk and say something about his mother.... :celebrate
    No, you have to be a xxxxxxx to do that.

  22. #22
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    Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
    In the spirit of an AAR:

    1. You should never have let him get in a position to do that.

    Barring that,

    2. He should have been sprawled out on the floor at that point.

    When someone tries to take your holstered firearm from you by force, certainly there is a reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury against you, is there not?

  23. #23
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    Damn, Talk about restraint. This is one of the reasons I carry some pepper spray with me. I still cant believe that someone would be dumb enough to reach for someone's gun, I mean hell, you just gave the guy the legal right to draw it and use it.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sharpender's Avatar
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    acmariner99 wrote:
    Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
    Me: (put a firm grip on the handle, yanks away and steps back and exclaim loud enough to bring to attention that a serious situation is developing): "Hey get your hand off my gun"
    Man: What, not allowed to touch it.
    I've had a similar encounter at a large retailer in Pierce County. My ten year old daughter was with me. As the confrontation was escalating my daughter and I were unable to walk away due to the fact that this man would step in front of us each time we tried. He reached for my P89 more than once in a kind of "whatcha gonna do if I do this" action...hard to explain what this really looked like. I'll be honest here and say that I'm not a real patient man...more so when OCing but less so when my daughter is with me. After his first "playfull" grab attempt, I told my daughter to walk away in the other direction, turned my strong side away from him and put my right hand on my 9. I took my pepper spray from my left pant pocket with my left hand and ordered him to back off. At this point there were some other shoppers that stopped to see what was going on and I asked someone to call 911. After more of his name calling I made it clear that he could walk away, get pepper sprayed, go to jail, or get shot. I think the idea of being blinded motivated him to walk away. All of this happened in about 90 seconds. Two PD cars arrived about two minutes after the guy left (I was impressed) and asked me what I wanted to do. I told them we were fine....but did give them a description of the guy and his direction of travel. Both officers were very cool about everything and were very supportive. In typical PD fashion, I was told that it might be a better to CC in the future. I jokingly told them I would as soon as they did. It was a good learning experience for me and I think I took away some good lessons. I will say that if he had made any motion for my daughter after grabbing for my gun the first time I would have killed him.
    Sharpender
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    acmariner99 wrote:
    Man: What is that? Points to my side
    Me: Oh, that is my gun.
    Man: What do you carry that around for?
    Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
    Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
    Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
    Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
    Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
    Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?
    Me: Walk away, no amount of verbal abuse constitutes the justification for use of lethal force
    Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy
    One could argue that he threatened you right there. At that point you can call the cops and let them sort it out.

    But, wow, what a nutcase. I think you handled it better than I could have. Good job!

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