Scary Target Encounter

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I had a scary encounter with a man at target in Everett today. Me and a friend were going shopping, talking about permits for certain states as he was curious. We get to the shoe section and he proceeds to go about his business. As I am looking at a pair of potential hiking shoes the man in question takes one look at my side and the following dialouge ensues (to the best of my knowledge):

Man: What is that? Points to my side
Me: Oh, that is my gun.
Man: What do you carry that around for?
Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?
Me: Walk away, no amount of verbal abuse constitutes the justification for use of lethal force
Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy
Me: I would report you to management and the police sir, my life would not be in danger.
Man: What would I have to do to get you to pull that thing
Me: You would have to pull a deadly weapon and even then I would have options before firing.

At this point I can tell he is displeased but the conversation remained civil, it didn't stay that way. A couple of other questions followed but then he gets crazy and starts saying quite loudly:

Man: Hey everyone this guy has a gun
Me: Sir could you please quiet down, I am minding my business
Man: You are trying to get people to come after you, you dont need that
Me: You don't know that sir and neither do I, and the one making a scene here is you, you are yelling and drawing attention not me.
Man: You are making a scene, you have a GUN!
Me: So, I am just going about my day
Man: With a GUN!
Me: Sir I have a right to protect myself
Man: I don't care, what about everyone else in here
Me: Sir, they don't have a problem, you do, now please I want to go about my business (I attempt to walk away, he follows and pulls a couple aside -- ass)
Man: Hey, you know he has a gun
Lady: Yea, so he's not bothering anyone. If he wants to protect himself that is his prerogative, you sir are the problem not him.
Me: Thank you ma'am have a nice day
Man: What the hell is your problem, you are being an idiot
Me: Sir leave me alone, I am within the law, I have every right to be here and you are starting to bother me
Man: hey people guy with a gun
Me: (s*#&, gotta leave, try to walk away again, he follows, I was being way too nice, but I HAD TO STAY CALM)
Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
Me: (put a firm grip on the handle, yanks away and steps back and exclaim loud enough to bring to attention that a serious situation is developing): "Hey get your hand off my gun"
Man: What, not allowed to touch it.
Me: You are lucky I have no desire to throw you in jail, now LEAVE!
Man: You are trying to be a man, I think you have a small dick
Me: If you want to talk to management or the police you are within your right to do so, you were out of line and I am not breaking the law.
Man: **** you man, I will talk to the cops
Me: fine have a nice day

(he finally leaves then calls over a store worker)
Employee: You ok, is there a problem
Me: ma'am, what is your store policy about open carry of firearms?
Employee: I don't think its allowed but I am not sure
Me: Ok, how would you like to proceed?
Employee: Lets go up to the front, I am not sure, but I will be calling the cops
Me: I will cooperate fully with you and law enforcement
Employee: Thank you, calls up a security officer
Security: Everything ok

By this time my nerves are frayed and details are sketchy, so I will give the short version: the security officer and the target employee call 911 who then surprisingly tell them that I am ok and within the law and have no problem with me carrying!! They also thanked me for staying calm and being informed about what i was doing, (thank you OCDO!!!!!!) The police were not dispatched and the man got away scott free, but the store was professional about their dealing with me and I told them as such and would be honored to participate in their business. (Oh, I did tell them that the idiot tried to grab my gun and he was being a disturbance and a potential threat to public safety.)

Thank you guys, all the hard work and study has paid off!
I will be in Lakewood tomorrow (still no internet, so feel free to respond, it will take a while to get to them)

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Overall, you did well, ACM99.

I think you stayed with the guy too long. He obviously just wanted to cause trouble and reaching for your gun is definitely over the line. Is that assault?

Why did he not get charged with something? It's all on camera....

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acmariner99 wrote:

I had a scary encounter with a man at target in Everett today. Me and a friend were going shopping, talking about permits for certain states as he was curious. We get to the shoe section and he proceeds to go about his business. As I am looking at a pair of potential hiking shoes the man in question takes one look at my side and the following dialouge ensues (to the best of my knowledge):

Man: What is that? Points to my side
Me: Oh, that is my gun.
Man: What do you carry that around for?
Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?

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I must say you handled everything well.

Right where I cut off your post is where I would of walked away. That question he asked is unreasonable and irrational.

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I'll take the charge up with management, not sure what they can do, so it wouldn't hurt to try

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Holy Cow!!!! This man broke several laws. Good job remaining calm!

I think I would have dialed the police though. Not just because the guy is an idiot but what if something did happen? I would want to be on record as being the caller who was in fear.

Maybe he was a Brady Campaigner front line man trying to provoke something. Phew!!!!

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The call to 911 needs to go in much sooner.
He is harassing you once he starts to antagonize.
It is elevated to assault when he grabs for your gun.
It is rare to run into this kind of a-hole, but when you do, some time in jail will give 'em a new perspective.
There is no reasoning that will do that in this case.

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I appreciate the feedback. I will be talking to target, PD, and a lawyer about charging him, but I dont know how much good it will do as I just walked away -- like I said, Im a nice, guy, maybe too nice.

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Ya I would have started my Digital Voice Recorder after his second stupid question. Then call the cops when he does not leave me alone. He would have a few broken bones the second he reached for my gun. And the cops would be on the way to pick him up anyways.

But good job. I would be pretty scared not knowing what he was planing on doing. But reaching for the gun is borderline suicidal and straight up insane.

I think starting the digital voice recorder would probably scare him. When he asks what that's for I would respond. Its for when the cops come arrest you for harassment it will help put as many charges against you as possible.

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You should be commended for your patience.
I tip my hat to you.
Lets all hope we can stay as composed as this man.
Dave.

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I was going to say the same thing about the voice recorder. Maybe you should go back to that Target and get one (if you don't already have one).

I look at someone trying to grab my gun as having only one thing on their mind, killing me with my own gun. That situation was potentially very dangerous. That guy clearly had a screw loose. I agree, anyone who tries to grab someone else's gun is either suicidal or trying to kill you.

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That really sucks. If he'd tried to grab my gun, though, I think he would have gotten an elbow to the face instead of a stern talking to. You would have been well within your rights to use physical force to prevent theft of your weapon. Then call 911

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I think you did a great job but: DO NOT let someone get close enough to almost grab or even to touch the grip of your sidearm. The man reaching for your sidearm is in fact a justifiable shoot. Yes, the trouble that would ensue post shooting would be a legal one for you and you potentially could be dragged through the courts but the move he made was and can be interpreted as a life-threatening move.

A man that you did not know ignored multiple demands to stay away then reacched for your sidearm. You got away this time. Keep a distance from the next jacka$$ or you might find yourself in a fight for your life...a fight for your sidearm.

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Wow freakish indeed! - I am glad your ok, and i think you handled it very well. Sounds like walking away was difficult if he was following you, and grabbing for the gun - sheesh, sounds like a good reason to accessorize with pepper spray or something non lethal. It's good you had your wits about you.

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If something like this is to happen, a store like this is the place you want it to happen. Lots of security cameras to record the encounter.

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SpyderTattoo wrote:

I was going to say the same thing about the voice recorder. Maybe you should go back to that Target and get one (if you don't already have one).

I look at someone trying to grab my gun as having only one thing on their mind, killing me with my own gun. That situation was potentially very dangerous. That guy clearly had a screw loose. I agree, anyone who tries to grab someone else's gun is either suicidal or trying to kill you.

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This brings up a good question, I know this has been discussed before, but maybe this could be a refresher.

Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?

Me: Sir are you threatening me? If he is theres another law being broken.

Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy?

What if he did, Should we be carrying something else less lethal to stop the threat, or is this why we carry, to stop the threat. (Personally this is one of my biggest fears in not nowing how far someone will go, and if they hit you once, would you be within your rights to draw and try to de escalate the problem, and I know the rule, dont ever draw on something you dont plan on shooting, I hurt to much to try to fight hand to hand anymore) I think we need clearer rules of engagment in this state.

Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)

again we should have more recourse, when someone tries to take our weapon.

It is sad that although we are just going about our day, that we have to be the ones who have to leave or deal with the aftermath

Kudos to you for you keeping your composure and not being part of the problem.

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AC- Gobs and gobs of self-control you have exercised here.

You may consider carrying a less-than-lethal from here on out...I'd have OCsprayed the piss out of this guy. HE was the one looking for the trouble, and at that point, he would have had it. ESPECIALLY if you had people close enough around to see that you were being victimized.

Hope to be there tomorrow to shake your hand.

-G20

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Some kind of spray would have been fun.

Spray him in the face and while he is laying on the floor crying say something like "Sir you are harassing me. If you continue to harass me I will be forced to take action."

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Glocked and Loaded wrote:

Some kind of spray would have been fun.

Spray him in the face and while he is laying on the floor crying say something like "Sir you are harassing me. If you continue to harass me I will be forced to take action."

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Perfect! Then, kick him in the junk and say something about his mother.... :celebrate

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I know a guy who would probably do something stupid like that.
Hes afraid of me to begin with so he wouldn't do it to me for his own safety but I have seen him give people crap like that just to see if he can provoke them to do something stupid. And then he talks crap about them because they did not...

I no longer hang out with that person..

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Wow that guy wasa nasty piece of work. I would have to say you handled it pretty well. Although I could see if you had some pepper spray maybe a little dose of that would of been warranted. Cheers