Trigger Dr
Regular Member
imported post
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
No, you have to be a xxxxxxx to do that.
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Scary Target Encounter
- Thread starter acmariner99
- Start date
kparker
Regular Member
imported post
1. You should never have let him get in a position to do that.
Barring that,
2. He should have been sprawled out on the floor at that point.
When someone tries to take your holstered firearm from you by force, certainly there is a reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury against you, is there not?
In the spirit of an AAR:
1. You should never have let him get in a position to do that.
Barring that,
2. He should have been sprawled out on the floor at that point.
When someone tries to take your holstered firearm from you by force, certainly there is a reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury against you, is there not?
cdjspider
Regular Member
imported post
Damn, Talk about restraint. This is one of the reasons I carry some pepper spray with me. I still cant believe that someone would be dumb enough to reach for someone's gun, I mean hell, you just gave the guy the legal right to draw it and use it.
Damn, Talk about restraint. This is one of the reasons I carry some pepper spray with me. I still cant believe that someone would be dumb enough to reach for someone's gun, I mean hell, you just gave the guy the legal right to draw it and use it.
Sharpender
Regular Member
imported post
acmariner99 wrote:
I've had a similar encounter at a large retailer in Pierce County. My ten year old daughter was with me. As the confrontation was escalating my daughter and I were unable to walk away due to the fact that this man would step in front of us each time we tried. He reached for my P89 more than once in a kind of "whatcha gonna do if I do this" action...hard to explain what this really looked like. I'll be honest here and say that I'm not a real patient man...more so when OCing but less so when my daughter is with me. After his first "playfull" grab attempt, I told my daughter to walk away in the other direction, turned my strong side away from him and put my right hand on my 9. I took my pepper spray from my left pant pocket with my left hand and ordered him to back off. At this point there were some other shoppers that stopped to see what was going on and I asked someone to call 911. After more of his name calling I made it clear that he could walk away, get pepper sprayed, go to jail, or get shot. I think the idea of being blinded motivated him to walk away. All of this happened in about 90 seconds. Two PD cars arrived about two minutes after the guy left (I was impressed) and asked me what I wanted to do. I told them we were fine....but did give them a description of the guy and his direction of travel. Both officers were very cool about everything and were very supportive. In typical PD fashion, I was told that it might be a better to CC in the future. I jokingly told them I would as soon as they did. It was a good learning experience for me and I think I took away some good lessons. I will say that if he had made any motion for my daughter after grabbing for my gun the first time I would have killed him.
acmariner99 wrote:
I've had a similar encounter at a large retailer in Pierce County. My ten year old daughter was with me. As the confrontation was escalating my daughter and I were unable to walk away due to the fact that this man would step in front of us each time we tried. He reached for my P89 more than once in a kind of "whatcha gonna do if I do this" action...hard to explain what this really looked like. I'll be honest here and say that I'm not a real patient man...more so when OCing but less so when my daughter is with me. After his first "playfull" grab attempt, I told my daughter to walk away in the other direction, turned my strong side away from him and put my right hand on my 9. I took my pepper spray from my left pant pocket with my left hand and ordered him to back off. At this point there were some other shoppers that stopped to see what was going on and I asked someone to call 911. After more of his name calling I made it clear that he could walk away, get pepper sprayed, go to jail, or get shot. I think the idea of being blinded motivated him to walk away. All of this happened in about 90 seconds. Two PD cars arrived about two minutes after the guy left (I was impressed) and asked me what I wanted to do. I told them we were fine....but did give them a description of the guy and his direction of travel. Both officers were very cool about everything and were very supportive. In typical PD fashion, I was told that it might be a better to CC in the future. I jokingly told them I would as soon as they did. It was a good learning experience for me and I think I took away some good lessons. I will say that if he had made any motion for my daughter after grabbing for my gun the first time I would have killed him.
Mainsail
Regular Member
imported post
acmariner99 wrote:
But, wow, what a nutcase. I think you handled it better than I could have. Good job!
acmariner99 wrote:
One could argue that he threatened you right there. At that point you can call the cops and let them sort it out.
But, wow, what a nutcase. I think you handled it better than I could have. Good job!
DaemonForce
Regular Member
imported post
This is a very interesting read.
I'm still not sure what would motivate such an idiot to act like a 4 year old in front of everyone but it does follow suit with what I've been saying about people for years:
1. People are stupid.
2. Assume that people will do ANYTHING.
3. People are about the same everywhere.
This applies to both of youand even myself. You claim to have quite a bit of patience but youseem incapable ofquickly assessing a troublemaker like that and making the decision to scramble and ask for help before the situation escalates. What I'm saying is this got out of your control because youlet him take it from you.
Hammer understands the problem spot on and I'm sure he can give you several pages of advice on these situations.
I haven't run into this type of threat in a while and in a way I'm thankful for that. However it puts me in too deep a state of unfamiliarity with the (un)common idiot. Over the years I have met afewdouchewimps that intentionally attempt to set me off by harassing me. For no good damn reason! They will either sit down adjacent to me in a restaraunt while I'm eating and start running their mouths or they will approach me on the street(usually in groups)and pick a fight. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground. That's just what happens to me. Normally my general choices in life force me into the double-edged problem where I cannot ask for help and I cannot run from the situation. I manage to get out of these situations in two of three ways:
Focusing very powerful body language(requires control)
Forcing the enemy into fear(requires wisdom)
Aggression rush(requires a fast mind)
So far these tactics work unusually well in my favorfor me to get awayto call for help but thatwon't always work for me and ifexecutedwrong in any way it will becomea seriousdisadvantage. I risk quite a bit by going very far out of my comfort zoneto handle a threat while your comfort zone is so large it's potentially dangerous to you and those you wish to protect. There is always an uncalculated risk around others but you do what you can.
You managed to get away before you had to resort to hurting the poor bastard. For this I commend you. Now learn to do it faster. :?
EDIT: I should state that for this oddball type of threat it's safe to say he just needs an ass-beating. They act like it for a reason and while it may seem like the best choice, you handled the situation better than most people would.
This is a very interesting read.
I'm still not sure what would motivate such an idiot to act like a 4 year old in front of everyone but it does follow suit with what I've been saying about people for years:
1. People are stupid.
2. Assume that people will do ANYTHING.
3. People are about the same everywhere.
This applies to both of youand even myself. You claim to have quite a bit of patience but youseem incapable ofquickly assessing a troublemaker like that and making the decision to scramble and ask for help before the situation escalates. What I'm saying is this got out of your control because youlet him take it from you.
Hammer understands the problem spot on and I'm sure he can give you several pages of advice on these situations.
I haven't run into this type of threat in a while and in a way I'm thankful for that. However it puts me in too deep a state of unfamiliarity with the (un)common idiot. Over the years I have met afewdouchewimps that intentionally attempt to set me off by harassing me. For no good damn reason! They will either sit down adjacent to me in a restaraunt while I'm eating and start running their mouths or they will approach me on the street(usually in groups)and pick a fight. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground. That's just what happens to me. Normally my general choices in life force me into the double-edged problem where I cannot ask for help and I cannot run from the situation. I manage to get out of these situations in two of three ways:
Focusing very powerful body language(requires control)
Forcing the enemy into fear(requires wisdom)
Aggression rush(requires a fast mind)
So far these tactics work unusually well in my favorfor me to get awayto call for help but thatwon't always work for me and ifexecutedwrong in any way it will becomea seriousdisadvantage. I risk quite a bit by going very far out of my comfort zoneto handle a threat while your comfort zone is so large it's potentially dangerous to you and those you wish to protect. There is always an uncalculated risk around others but you do what you can.
You managed to get away before you had to resort to hurting the poor bastard. For this I commend you. Now learn to do it faster. :?
EDIT: I should state that for this oddball type of threat it's safe to say he just needs an ass-beating. They act like it for a reason and while it may seem like the best choice, you handled the situation better than most people would.
HankT
State Researcher
imported post
DaemonForce wrote:
If you are being literal, This is the silliest kind of idea I have heard in a lonnnnnnnnggggg while.
It's the kind of idea is what makes gun carriers look bad. Very bad.
The guy is no physical threat. Moving away from him is the best and easiest possible tactic to employ. Anything else leads to complications. If it gets phsyical, it gets more complicated andcan get real complicated in a fraction of a second.
OP didn't lift a finger to do any physical damage to the goofball. And that was pretty darn good. Better than getting physical like some more, uh, aggressivetypes around here.
Your statement is just woofing.
DaemonForce wrote:
If you are being literal, This is the silliest kind of idea I have heard in a lonnnnnnnnggggg while.
It's the kind of idea is what makes gun carriers look bad. Very bad.
The guy is no physical threat. Moving away from him is the best and easiest possible tactic to employ. Anything else leads to complications. If it gets phsyical, it gets more complicated andcan get real complicated in a fraction of a second.
OP didn't lift a finger to do any physical damage to the goofball. And that was pretty darn good. Better than getting physical like some more, uh, aggressivetypes around here.
Your statement is just woofing.
Glocked and Loaded
Regular Member
imported post
HankT wrote:
Well I agree that people like that need to get there ass kicked.
Does not mean we should go around kicking them. I am sure if somebody went up to a LEO and tried to grab there gun they would have been beaten and arrested. I do not see why it should be any different to us.
HankT wrote:
Well I agree that people like that need to get there ass kicked.
Does not mean we should go around kicking them. I am sure if somebody went up to a LEO and tried to grab there gun they would have been beaten and arrested. I do not see why it should be any different to us.
imported post
Wow, Good restraint my friend. Myself and derosa had an experience like yourself a year ago. I handled my "big mouth person" buy just being silent.
I would suggest adding this thread to the national section for everyone to read, not just Washing state.
Wow, Good restraint my friend. Myself and derosa had an experience like yourself a year ago. I handled my "big mouth person" buy just being silent.
I would suggest adding this thread to the national section for everyone to read, not just Washing state.
Son_of_Perdition
Regular Member
imported post
Holy Schnike's!
This could have ended badly for you on many levels. First question about your firearm should have prompted you to hit Record on your recorder. Before any words come out of your mouth.
A lesson in psychology:
People consciously and subconsciously size people up when youspeak to them. This conveys more than your actual physical size. Basically, If you just stare at someone stone faced blankly when they are confronting you. Said aggressor will not proceed with a confrontation more then a couple more empty comments. Not saying a peep can save a person from the most dangerous situations. It is a primal thing. Just saying "Hi" to someone turns off the inner fear of the unknown. The simple act of not speaking has saved many a female jogger in secluded parks when confronted by potential rapists.That being said. We all want to educate people and come across as unimposing as possible, when we OC. In your situation. The more you talked to him. The more he discerned you were not a threat to him in his nut case mind. He sees you have a gun. He is thinking Cop, vigilante? Every question you answered gave him more ammunition for his next action.
I'm good at hindsight. Your situation would have played out the same for me.Doubtfully, I could handle myself as professionally as you did. This for sure confirms for me that all questions and interactions aboutones firearm need to be recorded.
Son
Holy Schnike's!
This could have ended badly for you on many levels. First question about your firearm should have prompted you to hit Record on your recorder. Before any words come out of your mouth.
A lesson in psychology:
People consciously and subconsciously size people up when youspeak to them. This conveys more than your actual physical size. Basically, If you just stare at someone stone faced blankly when they are confronting you. Said aggressor will not proceed with a confrontation more then a couple more empty comments. Not saying a peep can save a person from the most dangerous situations. It is a primal thing. Just saying "Hi" to someone turns off the inner fear of the unknown. The simple act of not speaking has saved many a female jogger in secluded parks when confronted by potential rapists.That being said. We all want to educate people and come across as unimposing as possible, when we OC. In your situation. The more you talked to him. The more he discerned you were not a threat to him in his nut case mind. He sees you have a gun. He is thinking Cop, vigilante? Every question you answered gave him more ammunition for his next action.
I'm good at hindsight. Your situation would have played out the same for me.Doubtfully, I could handle myself as professionally as you did. This for sure confirms for me that all questions and interactions aboutones firearm need to be recorded.
Son
Bersa.380
Regular Member
imported post
I might be wrong in my opinion ... I think once he reaches for you or your gun it could be looked at as a threat and you would be in your right to defend yourself from harm.
I am not saying draw your gun .... but maybe the use of your hands ?
I might be wrong in my opinion ... I think once he reaches for you or your gun it could be looked at as a threat and you would be in your right to defend yourself from harm.
I am not saying draw your gun .... but maybe the use of your hands ?
Trigger Dr
Regular Member
imported post
Not being critical of your action, but this is where weapon retention training comes into play. Although it should never be allowed to reach the level requiring retention techniques, one does not always have a choice in the matter. With the proper tactics, a simple move would result in a hyper extended or dislocated elbow for the aggressor. easy to learn easy to remember, easy to apply, not a lot of physical strength required, just a cool head.
Not being critical of your action, but this is where weapon retention training comes into play. Although it should never be allowed to reach the level requiring retention techniques, one does not always have a choice in the matter. With the proper tactics, a simple move would result in a hyper extended or dislocated elbow for the aggressor. easy to learn easy to remember, easy to apply, not a lot of physical strength required, just a cool head.
Knock-Off Dragunov
Regular Member
imported post
wow, very scary story! I too think you handled it VERY well - but I think it goes to show you how important it is to keep people like this as FAR as possible from you.
The first hint you get that this guy is a weirdo, start walkin and keep an eye on him as ya leave!
wow, very scary story! I too think you handled it VERY well - but I think it goes to show you how important it is to keep people like this as FAR as possible from you.
The first hint you get that this guy is a weirdo, start walkin and keep an eye on him as ya leave!
virgil47
Regular Member
imported post
I think you handled it pretty well. However, as soon as the questioning became strident you should have simply dialed 911 and reported him for harassment. I don't believe it is either necessary or even desirable to run from this type of aggressor. His main goal is to get you to run to the point that you leave the store. When you try to avoid or evade him it only reinforces his behavior. You will notice that as soon as he thought the store employees were going to kick you out he disappeared. His desire had been fulfilled and he probably gloated all the way home.
I think you handled it pretty well. However, as soon as the questioning became strident you should have simply dialed 911 and reported him for harassment. I don't believe it is either necessary or even desirable to run from this type of aggressor. His main goal is to get you to run to the point that you leave the store. When you try to avoid or evade him it only reinforces his behavior. You will notice that as soon as he thought the store employees were going to kick you out he disappeared. His desire had been fulfilled and he probably gloated all the way home.
Wheelgunner
Regular Member
imported post
Glock17 wrote:
Yes, the gun grab was WAY over the top. Even the questions at the beginning were creepy, but going for your gun (!).
Wow.
My response to a gun grab would not be to shoot him, though it is pretty serious. More serious than say, picking your pocket. Going for your weapon should be considered Assault with Intent. Against an unarmed gun grab, a firm response is called for:
Glock17 wrote:
Yes, the gun grab was WAY over the top. Even the questions at the beginning were creepy, but going for your gun (!).
Wow.
My response to a gun grab would not be to shoot him, though it is pretty serious. More serious than say, picking your pocket. Going for your weapon should be considered Assault with Intent. Against an unarmed gun grab, a firm response is called for:
Matt85
Regular Member
imported post
HankT wrote:
dead wrong! clearly you have never been attacked/mugged before. the second a stranger attempts to grab for your gun you need to prepare for a fight.there is nodifferencebetween themattempting to draw there own pistol and them attempting to draw your pistol! (edit: im not saying to draw on him, but take a proper shooting stance and have someone call the police)
to the OP: you have the patience of stone, im very impressed! however, if someone is being that aggressive you should not turn your back on them. you should have called the police when he would not leave you alone.
-matt
HankT wrote:
dead wrong! clearly you have never been attacked/mugged before. the second a stranger attempts to grab for your gun you need to prepare for a fight.there is nodifferencebetween themattempting to draw there own pistol and them attempting to draw your pistol! (edit: im not saying to draw on him, but take a proper shooting stance and have someone call the police)
to the OP: you have the patience of stone, im very impressed! however, if someone is being that aggressive you should not turn your back on them. you should have called the police when he would not leave you alone.
-matt
Hammer
Regular Member
imported post
DaemonForce wrote:
Thanks for the props, but after you're around here a while you'll see my opinion doesn't count for much here.
I don't at all agree with Hank. An "ass-beating" would be very much in order, but would need to be focused around some specific circumstances. The gun-grab was the cue. A quick joint break would end the harassment, and be well within bounds of self-defense.
Up until the early 20th century, these types didn't muddy the gene pool for long. No one missed 'em either. We are now so much more "civilized" we can't deal properly and overtly with a threat like this.
There are ways to cope within current legal protocol, tho.
I did run across one of these a few months back. He was quite verbally vicious, thinking he could provoke an incident that might favor him.
It did not end in his favor, and I never had to slap leather (OK, Kydex)
DaemonForce wrote:
Thanks for the props, but after you're around here a while you'll see my opinion doesn't count for much here.
I don't at all agree with Hank. An "ass-beating" would be very much in order, but would need to be focused around some specific circumstances. The gun-grab was the cue. A quick joint break would end the harassment, and be well within bounds of self-defense.
Up until the early 20th century, these types didn't muddy the gene pool for long. No one missed 'em either. We are now so much more "civilized" we can't deal properly and overtly with a threat like this.
There are ways to cope within current legal protocol, tho.
I did run across one of these a few months back. He was quite verbally vicious, thinking he could provoke an incident that might favor him.
It did not end in his favor, and I never had to slap leather (OK, Kydex)
acmariner99
Regular Member
imported post
I love the feedback. This situation clearly showed that the best weapon I had at my disposal was the one between my ears. Walking away would have been bad because of how the guy was acting "Hey everyone man with a gun" I was safer staying where I was and not encouraging the guy to follow me, which I believe he would have done if I decided to leave. He went for the gun to try to get me to do something, (based on the rest of his actions and attitudes) so I assumed (bad I know) that he was just trying to piss me off and get me to draw. If I had spray or a stun gun, I would have used that and called the police. It could have ended very badly, and the lesson for next time is to expedite my departure before this kind of thing escalates. I forget who it was at the Dennys meet today that said "size your opponent up in 30 seconds or less, if you deem him an idiot, leave."
As a follow up, I did talk with the manager and security about charging him. They told me that they talked to the man about what the police told them "I was legal and not bothering anyone and HE started it." He was apparently very apologetic so I dropped it after that. I will be going to said target to thank them by buying one of those recorders that a lot of people here have encouraged me to do.
I love the feedback. This situation clearly showed that the best weapon I had at my disposal was the one between my ears. Walking away would have been bad because of how the guy was acting "Hey everyone man with a gun" I was safer staying where I was and not encouraging the guy to follow me, which I believe he would have done if I decided to leave. He went for the gun to try to get me to do something, (based on the rest of his actions and attitudes) so I assumed (bad I know) that he was just trying to piss me off and get me to draw. If I had spray or a stun gun, I would have used that and called the police. It could have ended very badly, and the lesson for next time is to expedite my departure before this kind of thing escalates. I forget who it was at the Dennys meet today that said "size your opponent up in 30 seconds or less, if you deem him an idiot, leave."
As a follow up, I did talk with the manager and security about charging him. They told me that they talked to the man about what the police told them "I was legal and not bothering anyone and HE started it." He was apparently very apologetic so I dropped it after that. I will be going to said target to thank them by buying one of those recorders that a lot of people here have encouraged me to do.
Hammer
Regular Member
imported post
You did good not to have it escalate further! I think we have a disproportionate # of these maroons here in the PNW. They are concentrated in the urban areas, tho from time to time I stumble upon one hiking the back country.
Here's hoping this one was your last for a lifetime.... :monkey
PS Study up on your CQB technique in case it's not your last. It's easy to see how quickly a crank could have your gun- don't let 'em!
acmariner99 wrote:
You did good not to have it escalate further! I think we have a disproportionate # of these maroons here in the PNW. They are concentrated in the urban areas, tho from time to time I stumble upon one hiking the back country.
Here's hoping this one was your last for a lifetime.... :monkey
PS Study up on your CQB technique in case it's not your last. It's easy to see how quickly a crank could have your gun- don't let 'em!
acmariner99 wrote:
gogodawgs
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Hammer wrote:
We have a lot of purplish people here?????? Can you cite?
Hammer wrote:
We have a lot of purplish people here?????? Can you cite?