Scary Target Encounter

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Batousaii wrote:

1970camaroRS wrote:

This whole incident has made me wonder:

How many people also conceal carry a 2nd gun in case for some odd reason your open carry gets taken from you?

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I have been seriously considering something of this nature. 99's situation has given me alot of food for thought, though i am still chewing. a small mace can and a bug maybe ? - not sure yet.

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I think that's the wrong reason for a bug. That's just me, though.

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Maybe a bulletproof vest too? Sheesh. He had an encounter with a nutcase, which is very rare, and he handled it just fine; so now you recommend a change to his (or your) safety plan?

I’m just a regular guy going about my regular business. I carry a sidearm for protection, and pray I never have to use it. I don’t carry a batman belt like I’m some kind of tacticool ranger, I don’t carry a back-up gun (or two?!), I don’t scope out the restaurant when I enter, etc. Seriously, most of us are at far greater risk of heart disease or random falling tree limbs.

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Mainsail wrote:

Maybe a bulletproof vest too? Sheesh. He had an encounter with a nutcase, which is very rare, and he handled it just fine; so now you recommend a change to his (or your) safety plan?

I’m just a regular guy going about my regular business. I carry a sidearm for protection, and pray I never have to use it. I don’t carry a batman belt like I’m some kind of tacticool ranger, I don’t carry a back-up gun (or two?!), I don’t scope out the restaurant when I enter, etc. Seriously, most of us are at far greater risk of heart disease or random falling tree limbs.

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I agree....kinda like the chance ofsomething happening to one of your arms rendering it useless even more unlikely.

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Hammer wrote:

DaemonForce wrote:

This is a very interesting read.


Hammer understands the problem spot on and I'm sure he can give you several pages of advice on these situations.


Focusing very powerful body language(requires control)


You managed to get away before you had to resort to hurting the poor bastard. For this I commend you. Now learn to do it faster. :?

EDIT: I should state that for this oddball type of threat it's safe to say he just needs an ass-beating. They act like it for a reason and while it may seem like the best choice, you handled the situation better than most people would.

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Thanks for the props, but after you're around here a while you'll see my opinion doesn't count for much here.

I don't at all agree with Hank. An "ass-beating" would be very much in order, but would need to be focused around some specific circumstances. The gun-grab was the cue. A quick joint break would end the harassment, and be well within bounds of self-defense.

Up until the early 20th century, these types didn't muddy the gene pool for long. No one missed 'em either. We are now so much more "civilized" we can't deal properly and overtly with a threat like this.
There are ways to cope within current legal protocol, tho.
I did run across one of these a few months back. He was quite verbally vicious, thinking he could provoke an incident that might favor him.
It did not end in his favor, and I never had to slap leather (OK, Kydex)

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You and I sir are on the same page. People like this asshat exist because there was never an immediate consequence for an unacceptable behavior. To the OP, great restraint. I've yet to have an issue other than profuse staring (maybe the person thought they had mind powers). We could all sit back and monday morning quarterback but I think the general consensus is that you did great. I commend you for your patience.

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Mainsail wrote:

What does it have to do with "cool kids"? If you're willing to bet your life that you will always have two hands free, hey, go for it. I seldom have two free hands, and I am comfortable with my sidearm, so for me loaded is the way to go. Just because you carry differently is no reason to bash the people that are only trying to warn you.

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A warning and constructive criticism I welcome with open arms. I do see peoples' point when they say condition one is the way a 1911 was designed for. And having the weapon at the utmost prepared state ofoperation is the best for an encounter when fractions of a second count. I get that and agree. However,convenience of carry is myprimary driving force behind carrying condition 3. My comment about the "Cool kids" is that despite stating howquite comfortable I am with carrying condition one. And giving examples of the necessity to carry condition 3; when one does not have a permit.Some people make comments without even readingwhy it works for me. They get hung up on the gun being in condition 3 and can't get over it. It is mostly a "Well if you are afraid of your weapon ( "Not Comfortable"). Maybe you shouldn’t be carrying it boy." attitude.

That being said. My feelings are not hurt. And I do not feel bad in any way about the way I carry. Nor do I feel anyone should carry as I do.But it is exhausting to readcomments implying that. Anyone that carries condition 3 must be scared of their gun and perhaps should not even have one. that’s all. Besides, if I truly was worried about Tactical superiority I would have a permit and I would never let anyone know I'm packing. Let’s be honest. Nothing says "Hay bad guy. I have a freaking gun!" like a strong carried 1911.

When I was 21 I went down and got my permit. It was the white one and I could walk in any gun store and ten minutes later walk out with a shiny new addition to my collection. Them days are over and taxes are pissing me off in this State. My water heater went out and I had to get a $50 permit fromCowlitz county to replace it.Come on, Seriously. A permit to replace somthing I already have?I will pick up a state Tax, permission slip to CC some day. When I get over it.

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The consensus is as follows: showed restraint, patience, stayed calm, let the idiot walk himself into a corner

Could do better: have evidence by recording him, get out of the situation faster, and force him to keep his distance so he can't get near my sidearm. Duly noted.

A voice recorder or pulling out my phone would have ended the harassment right there, so I should be aware that I have many other tools at my disposal. Use of force was not required or justified.

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acmariner99 wrote:

The consensus is as follows: showed restraint, patience, stayed calm, let the idiot walk himself into a corner

Could do better: have evidence by recording him, get out of the situation faster, and force him to keep his distance so he can't get near my sidearm. Duly noted.

A voice recorder or pulling out my phone would have ended the harassment right there, so I should be aware that I have many other tools at my disposal. Use of force was not required or justified.

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Good summary and points for us all to think of and be prepared for.

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I would have walked away as soon as I started to become aware that he was just fishing for trouble.

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...deleted, late to the game.

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acmariner99 wrote:

The consensus is as follows: showed restraint, patience, stayed calm, let the idiot walk himself into a corner

Could do better: have evidence by recording him, get out of the situation faster, and force him to keep his distance so he can't get near my sidearm. Duly noted.

A voice recorder or pulling out my phone would have ended the harassment right there, so I should be aware that I have many other tools at my disposal. Use of force was not required or justified.

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You did good, and in the end no one got hurt.
I do think that if some nut-case puts a hand on my sidearm use of force IS justified. There is no way to tell if the nut-case is testing you or really going to attempt a grab. I know I woulda clipped his wings. No matter how one assesses the threat, in the end one cannot tell if the grabber might be a killer. My perspective is to treat it as a life-threatening situation.

A couple years ago I had this guy acting hinky around me and clearly following me in a grocery store. He repeatedly walked to my strong side and finally bent over and walked closer, enough to trigger action on my part. I turned weak side to him and asked his intentions. He said he wanted to know what kind of bbl I had in my Glock (there's a stainless bbl w/2-port comp sticking out the end of the holster)
I told him the brand and advised it would be preferable if he announced his intentions, rather than act like he was trying to sneak up on me.
We had a nice chat.
You never know which are just using poor judgment, and which are outright insane. :banghead:

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I'm a little unclear reading the original post whether or not the idiot actually touched your grip. Did he just make a move towards your side, or did he actually touch the gun?

In my world, if he had touched the gun, he would have found himself on the floor with some very sore body parts, if not broken ones. And I'm not all that healthy to begin with, and in my 60's.

Otherwise, I would go along with the advice to never let someone like this get close enough to attempt a grab.

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civil_lib wrote:

I'm a little unclear reading the original post whether or not the idiot actually touched your grip. Did he just make a move towards your side, or did he actually touch the gun?

In my world, if he had touched the gun, he would have found himself on the floor with some very sore body parts, if not broken ones. And I'm not all that healthy to begin with, and in my 60's.

Otherwise, I would go along with the advice to never let someone like this get close enough to attempt a grab.

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Always amused by those who say this. Do you refuse to shake hands?

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kito109654 wrote:

civil_lib wrote:

I'm a little unclear reading the original post whether or not the idiot actually touched your grip. Did he just make a move towards your side, or did he actually touch the gun?

In my world, if he had touched the gun, he would have found himself on the floor with some very sore body parts, if not broken ones. And I'm not all that healthy to begin with, and in my 60's.

Otherwise, I would go along with the advice to never let someone like this get close enough to attempt a grab.

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Always amused by those who say this. Do you refuse to shake hands?

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Frequently.

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kito109654 wrote:

civil_lib wrote:

I'm a little unclear reading the original post whether or not the idiot actually touched your grip. Did he just make a move towards your side, or did he actually touch the gun?

In my world, if he had touched the gun, he would have found himself on the floor with some very sore body parts, if not broken ones. And I'm not all that healthy to begin with, and in my 60's.

Otherwise, I would go along with the advice to never let someone like this get close enough to attempt a grab.

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Always amused by those who say this. Do you refuse to shake hands?

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I think civil-lib was refering to the person in this senerio. I know if I am confronted by a person that is giving me the creaps I always keep my non-wepon sde away from them. As far as shaking hands I have thier dominate hand in my dominant hand(unless they are left handed). I think that would be a bad time for someone to try a gun grab.

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Trigger Dr wrote:

kito109654 wrote:

civil_lib wrote:

I'm a little unclear reading the original post whether or not the idiot actually touched your grip. Did he just make a move towards your side, or did he actually touch the gun?

In my world, if he had touched the gun, he would have found himself on the floor with some very sore body parts, if not broken ones. And I'm not all that healthy to begin with, and in my 60's.

Otherwise, I would go along with the advice to never let someone like this get close enough to attempt a grab.

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Always amused by those who say this. Do you refuse to shake hands?

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Frequently.

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Because crazies frequently try to shake your hand or do you just deny a handshake to anyone you don't already know?

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civil_lib wrote:

I'm a little unclear reading the original post whether or not the idiot actually touched your grip. Did he just make a move towards your side, or did he actually touch the gun?

In my world, if he had touched the gun, he would have found himself on the floor with some very sore body parts, if not broken ones.  And I'm not all that healthy to begin with, and in my 60's.

Otherwise, I would go along with the advice to never let someone like this get close enough to attempt a grab.

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sorry for the late response -- at that point I was sure in condition orange -- all senses on high alert cause I wanted OUT and had no way to do it without attracting more unwanted attention. I turned to walk away, back to him and I heard his comment, turned my head back towards him, saw his hand come forward, and felt my belt get pulled. A definite grab attempt. Hand went onto the gun, switched to weak side forward, and yelled "dont touch my gun" Make sense?

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acmariner99 wrote:

civil_lib wrote:

I'm a little unclear reading the original post whether or not the idiot actually touched your grip. Did he just make a move towards your side, or did he actually touch the gun?

In my world, if he had touched the gun, he would have found himself on the floor with some very sore body parts, if not broken ones. And I'm not all that healthy to begin with, and in my 60's.

Otherwise, I would go along with the advice to never let someone like this get close enough to attempt a grab.

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sorry for the late response -- at that point I was sure in condition orange -- all senses on high alert cause I wanted OUT and had no way to do it without attracting more unwanted attention. I turned to walk away, back to him and I heard his comment, turned my head back towards him, saw his hand come forward, and felt my belt get pulled. A definite grab attempt. Hand went onto the gun, switched to weak side forward, and yelled "dont touch my gun" Make sense?

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back up, never present your strong side to the suspect, if he goes for it, tyou'll have your whole front of the your body to keep him at bat while either controlling him, hitting him, retreating, or drawing.

You want retention training?


Get a mock gun of what you carry.. when you're hanging around your friends, invite them, AT ANY TIME, WITHOUT WARNING, to attempt to grab your gun..... Trust me... you'll learn REAL quick how important it is to have weapons retention training.

Something as simple as resting your arm/elbow on the grip does wonders. Gives you plenty of moves to keep your weapon holstered and fend off the attack...

You want to create distance, and IMO you have TOO MUCH restraint....

carrying a weapon is a responsibility, part of which is to make sure it stays in YOUR hands...

What do you think would've happened if that guy had actually unholstered your pistol? Ever hear of suicide by cop? Maybe he was looking for someone to 'take him out' ??




So.

NEVER take your eyes off your target.
NEVER invite an attack by leaving yourself open.
ALWAYS create distance.
ALWAYS realize that a gun grab IS a threat to your life.


Don't give an opportunity.
repel.
create distance.
analyze.




In a situation where someone is attempting to take your pistol, keep it holstered! do not bring it out for them, unless you have no other choice..... Remember, they can't get to it if you're not close enough to them...

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Great post, Techno.

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Its hard to say really what to do because I would have had to be in your shoes. I can only imagine what is going on by drawing my own picture based on the dialogue you provided.

Unlike Hank T's opinion, I think the man would obviously be deserving of a physical reaction when he went for your gun. Not sure what is up with Hank T and his comments.

You obviously handled it well enough that it ended non-violently but the way in which the encounter was escalating, it was hard to tell when the man would cease and desist.

If it were me, I think I would have tried to call 911 as soon as I realized this man wouldn't let me be and was acting both beliggerant and looney.

When he reached for my gun, I probably would have immediately went hard and physical if I was confident I could pull it off. I would have tried to put him down to the ground and yelled for someone to call 911. Once he went for the gun, I wouldn't have known how far he was going to take it and one big smashing hit from him may have rendered you incapable of defending yourself and then that looney could have removed your weapon from you.

Cameras could be expected to be on your side as well.

That definitely seems like a very uncomfortable and a somewhat scary situation.

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MK wrote:

Its hard to say really what to do because I would have had to be in your shoes. I can only imagine what is going on by drawing my own picture based on the dialogue you provided.

Unlike Hank T's opinion, I think the man would obviously be deserving of a physical reaction when he went for your gun. Not sure what is up with Hank T and his comments.

You obviously handled it well enough that it ended non-violently but the way in which the encounter was escalating, it was hard to tell when the man would cease and desist.

If it were me, I think I would have tried to call 911 as soon as I realized this man wouldn't let me be and was acting both beliggerant and looney.

When he reached for my gun, I probably would have immediately went hard and physical if I was confident I could pull it off. I would have tried to put him down to the ground and yelled for someone to call 911. Once he went for the gun, I wouldn't have known how far he was going to take it and one big smashing hit from him may have rendered you incapable of defending yourself and then that looney could have removed your weapon from you.

Cameras could be expected to be on your side as well.

That definitely seems like a very uncomfortable and a somewhat scary situation.

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Like I said, elbow to the face, then put a good distance between you while dialing.