Target Encounter, Everett, Washington

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This happened to me yesterday 5/21/10. There is a lot about this event on a similar thread in the Washington State forum. I appreciate your thoughts about how I reacted. Many have said that maybe I was too nice with the guy and his actions could constitute a threat to my safety. I deemed that drawing was a bad move because he was ultimately trying to just piss me off. I did attempt to withdraw, but as you will read a full retreat would have made things worse. Enjoy!

I had a scary encounter with a man at target in Everett today. Me and a friend were going shopping, talking about permits for certain states as he was curious. We get to the shoe section and he proceeds to go about his business. As I am looking at a pair of potential hiking shoes the man in question takes one look at my side and the following dialouge ensues (to the best of my knowledge):

Man: What is that? Points to my side
Me: Oh, that is my gun.
Man: What do you carry that around for?
Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?
Me: Walk away, no amount of verbal abuse constitutes the justification for use of lethal force
Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy
Me: I would report you to management and the police sir, my life would not be in danger.
Man: What would I have to do to get you to pull that thing
Me: You would have to pull a deadly weapon and even then I would have options before firing.

At this point I can tell he is displeased but the conversation remained civil, it didn't stay that way. A couple of other questions followed but then he gets crazy and starts saying quite loudly:

Man: Hey everyone this guy has a gun
Me: Sir could you please quiet down, I am minding my business
Man: You are trying to get people to come after you, you dont need that
Me: You don't know that sir and neither do I, and the one making a scene here is you, you are yelling and drawing attention not me.
Man: You are making a scene, you have a GUN!
Me: So, I am just going about my day
Man: With a GUN!
Me: Sir I have a right to protect myself
Man: I don't care, what about everyone else in here
Me: Sir, they don't have a problem, you do, now please I want to go about my business (I attempt to walk away, he follows and pulls a couple aside -- ass)
Man: Hey, you know he has a gun
Lady: Yea, so he's not bothering anyone. If he wants to protect himself that is his prerogative, you sir are the problem not him.
Me: Thank you ma'am have a nice day
Man: What the hell is your problem, you are being an idiot
Me: Sir leave me alone, I am within the law, I have every right to be here and you are starting to bother me
Man: hey people guy with a gun
Me: (s*#&, gotta leave, try to walk away again, he follows, I was being way too nice, but I HAD TO STAY CALM)
Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
Me: (put a firm grip on the handle, yanks away and steps back and exclaim loud enough to bring to attention that a serious situation is developing): "Hey get your hand off my gun"
Man: What, not allowed to touch it.
Me: You are lucky I have no desire to throw you in jail, now LEAVE!
Man: You are trying to be a man, I think you have a small dick
Me: If you want to talk to management or the police you are within your right to do so, you were out of line and I am not breaking the law.
Man: @#$% you man, I will talk to the cops
Me: fine have a nice day

(he finally leaves then calls over a store worker)
Employee: You ok, is there a problem
Me: ma'am, what is your store policy about open carry of firearms?
Employee: I don't think its allowed but I am not sure
Me: Ok, how would you like to proceed?
Employee: Lets go up to the front, I am not sure, but I will be calling the cops
Me: I will cooperate fully with you and law enforcement
Employee: Thank you, calls up a security officer
Security: Everything ok

By this time my nerves are frayed and details are sketchy, so I will give the short version: the security officer and the target employee call 911 who then surprisingly tell them that I am ok and within the law and have no problem with me carrying!! They also thanked me for staying calm and being informed about what i was doing, (thank you OCDO!!!!!!) The police were not dispatched and the man got away scott free, but the store was professional about their dealing with me and I told them as such and would be honored to participate in their business. (Oh, I did tell them that the idiot tried to grab my gun and he was being a disturbance and a potential threat to public safety

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Wow. Good on you for not drawing. You saved that idiot from his own potentially fatal stupidity and arrogance. Glad to see that people understood who the aggressor really was.

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The jerk may have gotten away, but a few more people were educated about OC and have a positive impression of folks who OC.

Thanks.

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When he tried to "GRAB" your sidearm, a nice dose of pepper spray would have been IMHO warrented.

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SFCRetired wrote:

Rasher wrote:

When he tried to "GRAB" your sidearm, a nice dose of pepper spray would have been IMHO warrented.

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Pepper spray in a place like Target would be hazardous to many other people, not just the intended target. Use of a taser, unless you could subsequently prove aggression on the other party's part, could result in an assault charge against the person using it.

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No argument here, I am aware of the possible unintended effects of pepper spray, a taser is not an option for non leo's yet here in MI but its gonna happen soon, I cant say about the OP's home state. If he tried to grab his gun how does the OP know if he is just making a point or actually trying to take it from him, I dont-you dont-he didnt(the op), thank god this nutbag didnt go further.


IMNSHO, Op handled himself very well. There wasn't much else he could do under the circumstances. I would also say that he left a very positive impression on a lot of people in that store.

I agree with you 110%, he handled it great, and kudos the awareness of the store employees.

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The one piece of auxiliary equipment that might have come in really handy would've been a voice recorder. I carry mine now in case of another encounter with a misinformed LEO. Based on the above story, I will turn in on if someone speaks aggressively towards me because of my OCW.

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Knees are good targets... (might be a little too much in this situation though) so are eyes,elbows, groin, etc.... A quick tap to the groin can make someone pause and think over their actions that lead to this point.... (as soon as he touched the weapon, he was eligible for a response)

I always (ok, when I remember) use my voice recorder when I open carry in public. Remember to make sure the laws allow that in your state. A very good and FREE!!!! voice recorder program for cell phones/pda's with Windows Mobile is called "Keep Recording" It works very well, I dont even bother carrying my digital voice recorder anymore. Here is a link to it:

http://www.axyzmobile.com/products/keep-recordin

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Thy this is does work. A friend of mine was messing around one day and made a grab for my gun and I used it and he was stoped and did not try again. I ran him into a wall real hard.

http://www.officer.com/posa/video/Short_Tips_on_Various_Subjects/Gun_Grab_Technique/14987918001:::::::10/

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When somebody grabs for your gun, at a minimum you should inflict some physical damage to convince them of their foolishness.

This is a sensitive topic, one that I bet most LEOs, prosecutors, and judges have not thought through. An LEO can go ape on a gun grabber but we might get seen as the perpetrator.

One technique you might want to internalize is to 'blade' your weapon away from instigators (and other people). That is, angle your torso so that the weapon is moved away from the contact. For the average right hander carrying at 3:00, you stand witht the right hip rotated 45 degrees to ther rear.

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Wow i commend you on your maturity and patience. I got mad reading about it. I really don't know if i could have handled myself so well. If anyone made a grab for my weapon i would surely contact the police. Theres no way I'd let a situation like that go unaddressed. I'm not saying that there's any fault to you though. I just can't believe how stupid and sheltered some people are. If youre going to try to legitimize your illogical fear of guns why would you try to do that by showing aggression to someone in possession of one. You don't usually see stuff like that in nature. Like a zebra attacking a lion because its afraid of it or something. Anyway i admire your self control.

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Wow. Very disturbing situation but it sounded like you handled it well. I often carry a variety of other tools so I may have done something different with the gun grab attempt. If I had my taser on me at the time the moment he reached for the gun I would have tased him and told him he was under citizen's arrest. I would have called 911 from my cell phone. Now if instead he started violently attacking me (fists, feet, etc.) to forcibly get my gun, he would have been dead. I either would have thrown him off and then shot him or I would have pulled my knife and there would be cleanup in Isle 11. I personally am getting sick of crime and nuissances that I probably would have considered looking up to make sure there were no cameras around and then just knocked the shit out of him and left the store.

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Wow, handled very well very calm.. My blood was boiling while reading it.
I dont know how I would of reacted to the grabbing of the pistol, part of me says stay calm possibly make a police report could any of that be considered DTP? and another part of me says lay him out, react! but that would have been a LONG night. I think you made a wise choice. Reading this really makes me want a voice recorder.

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I will be going back to said Target and get a voice recorder and maybe a microwave

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Your patience is exemplary.

I'd have called 911 after he made a grab for the gun.

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VAopencarry wrote:

Your patience is exemplary.

I'd have called 911 after he made a grab for the gun.

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+1

Not sure about Arizona, but here in Louisiana it might have been possible to charge him with aggravated assault or aggravated battery.

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I completely agree, think you handled yourself very well, and don't think you did anything wrong.

Just for me personally, I probably would have sought out management as well, with him being so aggressive. When he went for the gun grab I would have immediately been on the phone with 911.

I have a voice recorder on my phone for encounters with LEO, I probably wouldn't have though to use it in this situation. That is a good idea.

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Big Boy wrote:

I completely agree, think you handled yourself very well, and don't think you did anything wrong.

Just for me personally, I probably would have sought out management as well, with him being so aggressive. When he went for the gun grab I would have immediately been on the phone with 911.

I have a voice recorder on my phone for encounters with LEO, I probably wouldn't have though to use it in this situation. That is a good idea.

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I have my voice recorder on ALL OF THE TIME, EVERY TIME I AM ARMED.

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Plankton wrote:

Big Boy wrote:

I completely agree, think you handled yourself very well, and don't think you did anything wrong.

Just for me personally, I probably would have sought out management as well, with him being so aggressive. When he went for the gun grab I would have immediately been on the phone with 911.

I have a voice recorder on my phone for encounters with LEO, I probably wouldn't have though to use it in this situation. That is a good idea.

Click to expand...

I have my voice recorder on ALL OF THE TIME, EVERY TIME I AM ARMED.

Click to expand...

That'd be a hell of a lot of space used up on mine. Not to mention battery. I could MAYBE see doing this if I had a committed voice recorder, but mine is built into my iPhone.

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Also think you handled this OUTSTANDINGLY! Good on you. As for the gun grab ... dude, you did pass up a golden opportunity to apply some negative feedback on a bad action, IMHO.

As for using your phone for your recorder ... you might want to check the chain-of-custody requirements for your state ... some require that the original recording be held by law enforcement if charges are filed ... this could mean that your phone will go into their evidence.

While that is the statute in my state, there was an incident where I made a video recording and when giving my statement, the detective copied the digital video to their computer and burned the cd for the DA for me

Also, don't forget, those communities with E911 will have a digital recording of anything that the phone can pick up during an incident. If you are in danger and you pull the gun, dial 911, put the phone down and it will record to E911 what happens ... especially if you are heard to say, "Stop, don't come any closer or I willbe forcedto pull my gun and shoot you." This does several things for you ... it shows that you are in fear of your life or great bodily harm ... it gives the choice to advance to the BG ... and gives a timeline for when your gun is drawn. IANAL, but this will give a defense attorney something to support a self-defense shooting. Hopefully, the DA will hear the 911 and choose not to file charges.