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Thread: No firearms at Lake Wilderness in Maple Valley, eh?

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    http://www.maplevalleywa.gov/index.aspx?page=111

    Park Rules

    Lake Wilderness Parks is open 7:00 a.m. to dusk year round. The public is reminded that fireworks, firearms and weapons, open fires, alcohol and drugs are not allowed in the Park; and domestic animals must be on leashes.

    The park swimming area opens for the season in mid-June with the start of the lifeguarding program. Lifeguards are on duty 7 days a week from 12:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. through Labor Day.

    For questions or concerns regarding the Park Rules please contact the Parks & Recreation Department at (425) 432-9953.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Should be pre-empted.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Yeah, it should be. I wonder if Maple Valley council is aware of this..

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Yeah, it should be. I wonder if Maple Valley council is aware of this..
    Pierce County Parks and Rec will not reply to any of my emails about their signs. It has been a long time of them ignoring the issue.

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    They are, it was repealed by MV ordinance O-09-384 in order to bring into line with state law, effective June 29, 2009.

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    hrlysef wrote:
    They are, it was repealed by MV ordinance O-09-384 in order to bring into line with state law, effective June 29, 2009.
    Probably just haven't updated their website then. I remember last year, they had a no firearms sign. Not sure if it's still there or not

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    My email:

    Mr. Greg Brown,

    My name is Aaron Braun. I am contacting you regarding a specific rule I came across on http://www.maplevalleywa.gov/index.aspx?page=111. I was browsing the site, looking for a place to spend this 4th of July with my family, and I came across a line that states "Lake Wilderness Parks is open 7:00 a.m. to dusk year round. The public is reminded that fireworks, firearms and weapons, open fires, alcohol and drugs are not allowed in the Park; and domestic animals must be on leashes."

    I was curious if Maple Valley actually has a specific ordinance prohibiting the lawful carry of firearms in Lake Wilderness Park. I ask, because Washington State Preemption (RCW 9.41.290) states the following

    "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality."

    (RCW 9.41.300 can be found here http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300) and does not list city parks as an "off limits" area for the lawful carry of firearms by citizens. I just thought I'd bring this up to see if I can get any further clarification on it, as I noticed you are the Parks and Recreations Director.

    Thanks a lot for your time, and I hope things are well!

    -Aaron Braun-

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    Well I never received a response, but I viewed their website today, and they removed "firearms" from the list of items that are prohibited. My email probably served as a reminder to update their info.

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    thats good they removed that, and I might just be nitpicking here a little bit.

    but MOST UNEDUCATED people dont know that there is a distinction between a firearm and a weapon. That being said it looks like it still allows for easy tattle-telling by "concerned" parents and a lot of uneasiness and hassle for an open carrier.

    Again just being nitpicky but that is my $.02

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    thats good they removed that, and I might just be nitpicking here a little bit.

    but MOST UNEDUCATED people dont know that there is a distinction between a firearm and a weapon. That being said it looks like it still allows for easy tattle-telling by "concerned" parents and a lot of uneasiness and hassle for an open carrier.

    Again just being nitpicky but that is my $.02
    But the second amendment covers more than just guns. It covers ARMS, of which knives, swords, cannons, etc would be included.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Wing Wacko View Post
    But the second amendment covers more than just guns. It covers ARMS, of which knives, swords, cannons, etc would be included.
    I agree with your statement completely, however I was making the argument that the SIGNAGE and rules do not seem to support that and that it will thus lead to problems and inconviniences for people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    thats good they removed that, and I might just be nitpicking here a little bit.

    but MOST UNEDUCATED people dont know that there is a distinction between a firearm and a weapon. That being said it looks like it still allows for easy tattle-telling by "concerned" parents and a lot of uneasiness and hassle for an open carrier.

    Again just being nitpicky but that is my $.02
    Their law should state "unlawful weapons" if they're going to say anything at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    MOST UNEDUCATED people dont know that there is a distinction between a firearm and a weapon.
    This is the issue I keep getting with the City of Tacoma and the T-Dome. While they can't charge me with a crime for my firearm, they also ban knives and other weapons.

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    I am new to the open carry thing as I prefer cc let me know if support is needed, m1gunner you already know from other communication I will be there

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    I just ignore these signs. They will probably stay up with the error in place until the sign has to be replaced. None of these departments have the money in the budget for new signs today.

    Trying to have a meaningful discussion with any government drone on how they are "illegal" is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. I just don't waste any more of my time doing so.

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    However....

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I just ignore these signs. They will probably stay up with the error in place until the sign has to be replaced. None of these departments have the money in the budget for new signs today.

    Trying to have a meaningful discussion with any government drone on how they are "illegal" is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. I just don't waste any more of my time doing so.
    However, it is good form to write the letters (emails), speak at the council meeting and put it on the public record!

    It is also excellent practice for the OC crowd to fine tune our writing and debating skills.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    thats good they removed that, and I might just be nitpicking here a little bit.

    but MOST UNEDUCATED people dont know that there is a distinction between a firearm and a weapon. That being said it looks like it still allows for easy tattle-telling by "concerned" parents and a lot of uneasiness and hassle for an open carrier.

    Again just being nitpicky but that is my $.02
    I guess even a frozen leg of lamb could be a weapon according to Hitchcock.

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    but then that would mean no frozen food which would lead to meaning no barbecue...so why should we have a park at all?

    Just saying....

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    Regular Member knight_308's Avatar
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    Just noticed today that they still have signs up that say no firearms. The sign is the big one on the path from the parking lot past the two picnic shelters as you head toward the playground.

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    I emailed the city attorney and parks director about this.

    Mr. Brown and Ms. Todd,

    I am writing to point out an error in your posted park rules at Lake
    Wilderness. Both on a sign posted on the path entering the park and on
    your website (http://www.maplevalleywa.gov/index.aspx?page=111) you
    state that weapons are not permitted. This is in violation of
    Washington's preemption statute, RCW 9.41.290, which states:

    "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire
    field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state,
    including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale,
    acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any
    other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including
    ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other
    municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to
    firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW
    9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances
    shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and
    ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed
    the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and
    repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule
    status of such city, town, county, or municipality."

    I hope that you will correct both your website, signs, and any lingering
    local codes that are outside of state law. Thank you,
    I received this response:

    Mr. XXXXX,

    Thank you for your email.

    The City Council repealed the prohibition on firearms in June, 2009, via
    Ordinance O-09-384. Unfortunately, our park signage has not caught up to
    that change. Our website has been corrected.

    The Parks Department hopes to have its signage amended before the end of
    this year. Please be aware that the City still prohibits certain
    dangerous weapons, pursuant to municipal code provisions which adopt
    state law: MVMC 9.05.380, which adopts RCW 9.41.230, .240, .250, .260,
    .270, .280. We appreciate your patience as we work on amending our park
    signage.

    Regards, Christy

    Christy A. Todd
    City Attorney
    City of Maple Valley
    22017 SE Wax Road, Suite 200
    P.O. Box 320
    Maple Valley, WA 98038
    (425) 413-6623 (direct line)
    (425) 413-8800 (reception)
    (425) 413-4282 City Hall fax
    christy.todd@maplevalleywa.gov
    The park rules previously read:

    Lake Wilderness Parks is open 7:00 a.m. to dusk year round. The public is reminded that fireworks, weapons, open fires, camping, and alcohol and drugs are not allowed in the Park; and domestic animals must be on leashes.
    Now they read:

    Lake Wilderness Parks is open 7:00 a.m. to dusk year round. The public is reminded that fireworks, DANGEROUS weapons (as defined by RCW 9.41.250), open fires, camping, and alcohol and drugs are not allowed in the Park; and domestic animals must be on leashes.
    Now they just need to fix the sign.

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    ... that will only take a budget committee review, vote to amend the budget, request for quotation to contractors and subcontractors, scheduling on site supervision, a survey of the surrounding landscape and four pints of goat blood.


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    Or a can of Krylon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddy4count View Post
    ... that will only take a budget committee review, vote to amend the budget, request for quotation to contractors and subcontractors, scheduling on site supervision, a survey of the surrounding landscape and four pints of goat blood.

    Let's not forget the federally funded environmental impact study, the removal of four dams, construction of a fish ladder, a glacier migration pattern study, and verification by the Bureau of Land Management of a possible jackalope sighting during a detour by a wagon lost from the Oregon Trail in 1897...

    Nice job giving Maple Valley a kind nudge in the right direction! +1
    Last edited by jenzenk; 09-16-2010 at 02:03 PM.

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    OC'ers fix park signs More at 5

    Quote Originally Posted by daddy4count View Post
    ... that will only take a budget committee review, vote to amend the budget, request for quotation to contractors and subcontractors, scheduling on site supervision, a survey of the surrounding landscape and four pints of goat blood.

    Would it be perceived inappropriate for a group of fine upstanding citizens who happen to OC/CC volunteer to replace the signage? No cost to the taxpayers of course. Just sayin'

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