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Thread: More Trouble with Royal Oak PD

  1. #1
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    The prelude to this story is that I went bowling with some friends. Michigander is going to wish he'd come along now...

    At the bowling alley, the manager asked me to conceal, but as there is a bar there I told him it was illegal. He was OK with it but asked if he could move us to another lane [away from the people who complained] and specifically said 'no I don't want you to leave, you didn't do anything wrong.' He was just trying to appease everyone.

    So, Duggan's...

    I really really wanted a Big Chief... like big time. So we went there. After ordering and sitting around for a few minutes, the manager comes up. He seemed OK at first. He asked me if I was licensed to carry. I said yes, and he asked me if he could see it.

    Against my better judgement I showed him my CPL, figuring if he knew I had it he would be less likely to call the police.

    So, then he calls ROPD.

    Then he comes back and tells me I can't carry there. It is a bar, sure, but I was OCing with CPL, so I was legal. He said that ROPD said differently.

    I was content to leave, figuring that the restaurant owner would be reasonable to take the police's word over mine, but I did enlighten him that he was misinformed and that I knew the law and was well within it.

    But then he had to go be an @#$% and act like he was a law expert all of a sudden.

    I said I knew the law and he said 'well then why are you bringing that in here??'

    ...so I asked him for a to go box with a very '**** you' look on my face, and made sure to promptly leave and give my girlfriend the pen for the charge slip.

    She put a big fat obvious zero where the tip goes, and personally handed it to the bartender. I love her :celebrate

    Oh the funniest part!

    I took my food, and went in the parking lot [not having been officially asked to leave, but rather told to put the gun in the car] and opened up the tailgate and finished my meal, now I'm posting this on my laptop using their WiFi... muahahaha!



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    Sounds more like he is the one who shouldn't be trusted with a gun.

    I'd be sure to mail the manager a copy of the law. And include a receipt from some place that doesn't throw you out.

    Maybe also complain to management about his boorish behavior.
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  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Wow! What a Richard Cranium! (no offense to our member who goes by that name).

    Makes me want to walk up & down the "public" sidewalk in front of the place on a busy Saturday night and hand out tri folds!




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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Unless they have a crazily hopping bar, there's no way a bowling alley imo has the majority of its sales as alcohol sold by the glass. You should have been able to carry concealed there if you chose to with your CPL.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  5. #5
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    I was OCing with CPL, so I was legal. He said that ROPD said differently.
    All you have is this bar manager claiming ROPD said it wasn't legal. Given that this manager was already making stuff up as he went, wouldn't be surprising if he made up or misinterpreted what ROPD said. Plus, you don't report that ROPD made any contact with you, which also suggests the manager was exaggerating or making up their response.

    I wouldn't say you had trouble with ROPD. Good on ya for zero tip!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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  6. #6
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    I was OCing with CPL, so I was legal. He said that ROPD said differently.
    All you have is this bar manager claiming ROPD said it wasn't legal. Given that this manager was already making stuff up as he went, wouldn't be surprising if he made up or misinterpreted what ROPD said. Plus, you don't report that ROPD made any contact with you, which also suggests the manager was exaggerating or making up their response.

    I wouldn't say you had trouble with ROPD. Good on ya for zero tip!
    The thing is though, if he was going to make it up he wouldn't have 'asked if I was legal' then went away for half an hour..

    Plus given prior experience with ROPD, it wouldn't surprise me.

    So you could be right... but my gut instinct tells me it is likely that he actually called them and was told false information.

    ETA: A FOIA could confirm or deny his claim...


    Unless they have a crazily hopping bar, there's no way a bowling alley imo has the majority of its sales as alcohol sold by the glass. You should have been able to carry concealed there if you chose to with your CPL.
    Well, Ok I had thought that, but then we did the math.
    My friends who were not carrying got a pitcher of beer, it was $9.
    Bowling was $1 a game per person, so we spent $10 on bowling, and only one person needed shoes, which was $3.

    So, then we figured that $9 was more than 60% of $13, so, while it is unlikely, as you state, it is possible.

    Besides, at first I didn't tell him it was illegal, I told him I had no way to conceal safely [since I wanted retention, as I was throwing a bowling ball.] and he seemed OK with that answer... it was just something that was mentioned later in the conversation.

    When in doubt, whip it out. [and no, that doesn't mean draw]

  7. #7
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    one other thing I thought of...

    If... erm... hypothetically... a person went into a bowling alley and... hypothetically... this bowling alley had gambling going on, specifically poker played for money, and... hypothetically... this was legal because the proceeds went to charity, then would that bowling alley... hypothetically... be considered a casino?

    Of course, I would never carry into a casino, because that would be illegal. I just wanted to ask... you know... hypothetically...

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    one other thing I thought of...

    If... erm... hypothetically... a person went into a bowling alley and... hypothetically... this bowling alley had gambling going on, specifically poker played for money, and... hypothetically... this was legal because the proceeds went to charity, then would that bowling alley... hypothetically... be considered a casino?

    Of course, I would never carry into a casino, because that would be illegal. I just wanted to ask... you know... hypothetically...
    Charity casino's were discussed recently:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...charity+casino
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  9. #9
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    I think the law on bars is so it's obvious, like, when you go to a "bar & grill" it's safe to assume that it's a place off limits to conceal, if you go to a "bowling alley" any reasonable person would assume the main source of income is "bowling"

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    The prelude to this story is that I went bowling with some friends. Michigander is going to wish he'd come along now...

    At the bowling alley, the manager asked me to conceal, but as there is a bar there I told him it was illegal. He was OK with it but asked if he could move us to another lane [away from the people who complained] and specifically said 'no I don't want you to leave, you didn't do anything wrong.' He was just trying to appease everyone.

    So, Duggan's...

    I really really wanted a Big Chief... like big time. So we went there. After ordering and sitting around for a few minutes, the manager comes up. He seemed OK at first. He asked me if I was licensed to carry. I said yes, and he asked me if he could see it.

    Against my better judgement I showed him my CPL, figuring if he knew I had it he would be less likely to call the police.

    So, then he calls ROPD.

    Then he comes back and tells me I can't carry there. It is a bar, sure, but I was OCing with CPL, so I was legal. He said that ROPD said differently.

    I was content to leave, figuring that the restaurant owner would be reasonable to take the police's word over mine, but I did enlighten him that he was misinformed and that I knew the law and was well within it.

    But then he had to go be an @#$% and act like he was a law expert all of a sudden.

    I said I knew the law and he said 'well then why are you bringing that in here??'

    ...so I asked him for a to go box with a very '**** you' look on my face, and made sure to promptly leave and give my girlfriend the pen for the charge slip.

    She put a big fat obvious zero where the tip goes, and personally handed it to the bartender. I love her :celebrate

    Oh the funniest part!

    I took my food, and went in the parking lot [not having been officially asked to leave, but rather told to put the gun in the car] and opened up the tailgate and finished my meal, now I'm posting this on my laptop using their WiFi... muahahaha!

    HE could have given you permission to OC in the bar with or without a CPL, as owner or their agents can grant permission. Let's not forget the permission part of .234d. It then puts the decision on the manager/owner, just more ammo for the argument of firearms in a bar.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    didn't see that one, thanks.

    ETA: The casino thread I mean

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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    little off the topic but was the no smoking ban enforced there also? i'm all for the ban but if they chose to defy the law and allow smoking - how can they enforce a presumed knowledge of firearms law? my nephew went in a bar in ohio when they passed the smoking ban and the bar allowed smoking in violation of law. when he got the bill saying he wasn't paying. they said he had to and it's illegal not to. he said so is smoking and left. he is also a CPL holder and tests the ohio laws when he can.
    if i found a bar that didn't abide by the smoking law i would go out of my way to OC there. call the police? sure - get ready for your $1000 fine too.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    kryptonian wrote:
    little off the topic but was the no smoking ban enforced there also? i'm all for the ban but if they chose to defy the law and allow smoking - how can they enforce a presumed knowledge of firearms law? my nephew went in a bar in ohio when they passed the smoking ban and the bar allowed smoking in violation of law. when he got the bill saying he wasn't paying. they said he had to and it's illegal not to. he said so is smoking and left. he is also a CPL holder and tests the ohio laws when he can.
    if i found a bar that didn't abide by the smoking law i would go out of my way to OC there. call the police? sure - get ready for your $1000 fine too.
    The ban was indeed enforced there.

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    My guess is that the PD knows damn well what the law is, but resents the fact that the law is what it is, and that they aren't the top dogs under it, instead being pretty much equal to us, which could really annoy a cop if he or she had a strong us against them attitude. So, I'd say that if everything is as it seemed, they probably wanted to mess with you without actually messing with you, so they had this guy do it for them.

    You need to submit a FOIA to find out for sure. You'll need to know what their training procedures have been on OC, and you'll need a recording of the call, if one actually happened.

    As a side note, I truly believe that their quality of leadership has gone down since the chief left for the OCSD. And now that they are going to lay off like 1/3 of their officers, I have next to no hopes for the agency going above and beyond to set an extremely rareexample of midwestern police department excellence. The good news is that I doubt they'll directly harass anyone since they aren't exactly in a position to afford being sued.
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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    I think the law on bars is so it's obvious, like, when you go to a "bar & grill" it's safe to assume that it's a place off limits to conceal, if you go to a "bowling alley" any reasonable person would assume the main source of income is "bowling"
    I disagree, locally we have a business called the "Corner Bar", yet they are known for their burgers and hotdogs. I would personally not hesitate to conceal there as I think they are a restaurant first and bar 2nd.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    sevenplusone wrote:
    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    I think the law on bars is so it's obvious, like, when you go to a "bar & grill" it's safe to assume that it's a place off limits to conceal, if you go to a "bowling alley" any reasonable person would assume the main source of income is "bowling"
    I disagree, locally we have a business called the "Corner Bar", yet they are known for their burgers and hotdogs. I would personally not hesitate to conceal there as I think they are a restaurant first and bar 2nd.
    Please check and make sure the "Corner Bar" isn't a bar that sells burgers and hot dogs.

    The law really doesn't care what we may "think" an establishment is... the law only cares what that establishment is by legal definition...

    Hence, if it really is a "bar" that has great burgers and hot dogs concealed carry there is illegal.

    I'm not getting down on ya... just don't want anyone to get themselves in trouble by going on an assumption and not on actual fact.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)

    Act 372 of 1927

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.Sec. 5o.
    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    snip
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303,where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    entire exerpt can be read here:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...20AND%20pistol

    Hence... the part I highlighted in blue means that regardless of how great the burgers and hot dogs are at the "Corner Bar" if their primary source of income is liquor sold by the glass and consumed on the premises.....

    concealed carry is illegal there.

    Edited because I messed up the linky..... :?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    sevenplusone wrote:
    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    I think the law on bars is so it's obvious, like, when you go to a "bar & grill" it's safe to assume that it's a place off limits to conceal, if you go to a "bowling alley" any reasonable person would assume the main source of income is "bowling"
    I disagree, locally we have a business called the "Corner Bar", yet they are known for their burgers and hotdogs. I would personally not hesitate to conceal there as I think they are a restaurant first and bar 2nd.
    Please check and make sure the "Corner Bar" isn't a bar that sells burgers and hot dogs.

    The law really doesn't care what we may "think" an establishment is... the law only cares what that establishment is by legal definition...

    Hence, if it really is a "bar" that has great burgers and hot dogs concealed carry there is illegal.

    I'm not getting down on ya... just don't want anyone to get themselves in trouble by going on an assumption and not on actual fact.
    I do not think they make the majority of their money from liqour sales. I was simply making the point thatjust because something has 'bar' in the name doesn't mean it is one.

  19. #19
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    sevenplusone wrote:
    Bikenut wrote:
    sevenplusone wrote:
    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    I think the law on bars is so it's obvious, like, when you go to a "bar & grill" it's safe to assume that it's a place off limits to conceal, if you go to a "bowling alley" any reasonable person would assume the main source of income is "bowling"
    I disagree, locally we have a business called the "Corner Bar", yet they are known for their burgers and hotdogs. I would personally not hesitate to conceal there as I think they are a restaurant first and bar 2nd.
    Please check and make sure the "Corner Bar" isn't a bar that sells burgers and hot dogs.

    The law really doesn't care what we may "think" an establishment is... the law only cares what that establishment is by legal definition...

    Hence, if it really is a "bar" that has great burgers and hot dogs concealed carry there is illegal.

    I'm not getting down on ya... just don't want anyone to get themselves in trouble by going on an assumption and not on actual fact.
    I do not think they make the majority of their money from liqour sales. I was simply making the point thatÂ*just because something has 'bar' in the name doesn't mean it is one.
    and i said it is "probably safe to assume" there are exceptions to every rule.

    it is probably safe to assume that aliens are real, however, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting to see one.

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Oh the funniest part!

    I took my food, and went in the parking lot [not having been officially asked to leave, but rather told to put the gun in the car] and opened up the tailgate and finished my meal, now I'm posting this on my laptop using their WiFi... muahahaha!

    +1

    If it were me, I would have sent them an email outlining your dissatisfaction of your treatment and remind them that their competition is getting your business... then thank them for use of their internet so you could post the story to community boards. Of course I would also be wearing an 'i love guns and coffee tshirt' but that's just me... I love this shirt

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    Flanders007 wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Oh the funniest part!

    I took my food, and went in the parking lot [not having been officially asked to leave, but rather told to put the gun in the car] and opened up the tailgate and finished my meal, now I'm posting this on my laptop using their WiFi... muahahaha!

    +1

    If it were me, I would have sent them an email outlining your dissatisfaction of your treatment and remind them that their competition is getting your business... then thank them for use of their internet so you could post the story to community boards. Of course I would also be wearing an 'i love guns and coffee tshirt' but that's just me... I love this shirt
    I love these shirts I ordered one in black from Flanders007. He has them for sale and has large sizes for us guys built along generous lines and ample proportions.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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