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Thread: Going camping and need some info

  1. #1
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    I am going camping later this week and will be bringing my 1911 and a long gun. I would like to keep it in the tent when i am sleeping and on my side during the day since I have no cpl.

    Question is are there any laws I would be breaking having it, Lets say in my backpack that's sitting there next to my bed? I know I cant put the backpack on cause then it would be on my person correct?

    And would a tent be considered concealed since its not on my property? This is private land that a friend of my fiancee owns.

    I am thinking about not even bringing them since I know one or 2 of the guys are under 21. I do not know what kind of guns they have. I would guess long guns.

    Sorry if this is a no brainier, I just want to be sure since I just filed for my cpl and don't want to mess it up at all.




  2. #2
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    If I'm not mistaken, your tent is going to be your dwelling, similar to like a motel room so you can carry as you wish while in it with the property owners permission.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  3. #3
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    i am 99.9% sure that a property owner can not give a person without a CPL permission to conceal, whether on their property or not.

  4. #4
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Sorry Kyle, edited my original post cause I couldn't find the law to back it up, however I'm pretty sure he can in his tent at least.
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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    i am 99.9% sure that a property owner can not give a person without a CPL permission to conceal, whether on their property or not.
    Cross pistols and I discussed this topic at the membership meeting. We really couldn't find a law that states a person could not grant permission to allow a guest to CC on his property without a CPL.

    The law discusses places you can't CC without a license, so on those properties you couldn't but on private property likehomes, farms, ranches, woodlots, etc. you may be able to grant permission.

    But this was only a discussion and not legal advice. Interesting isn't it?
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Remember, though, that having the pistol in your backpack on the way to the camping site would be a violation of MCL750.227.

    Here is what happened to a young lady who "apparently" did not know this:


    http://coa.courts.mi.gov/DOCUMENTS/O...257458.OPN.PDF

    See MCL below:
    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.

    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.227 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 206, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 8, Eff. July 1, 1986
    Constitutionality: The double jeopardy protection against multiple punishment for the same offense is a restriction on a court's ability to impose punishment in excess of that intended by the Legislature, not a limit on the Legislature's power to define crime and fix punishment. People v Sturgis, 427 Mich 392; 397 NW2d 783 (1986).
    Former Law: See section 5 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16753.
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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    What if it is unloaded in a backpack, perhaps in it's own small case?
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    DrTodd wrote:
    Remember, though, that having the pistol in your backpack on the way to the camping site would be a violation of MCL750.227.

    Here is what happened to a young lady who "apparently" did not know this:


    http://coa.courts.mi.gov/DOCUMENTS/O...257458.OPN.PDF

    See MCL below:
    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.

    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.227 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 206, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 8, Eff. July 1, 1986
    Constitutionality: The double jeopardy protection against multiple punishment for the same offense is a restriction on a court's ability to impose punishment in excess of that intended by the Legislature, not a limit on the Legislature's power to define crime and fix punishment. People v Sturgis, 427 Mich 392; 397 NW2d 783 (1986).
    Former Law: See section 5 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16753.
    curious what she was doing that necessitated police contact and a search of her backpack in an apartment parking lot.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    (I am not a lawyer and this is my educated personal opinion, nothing more)


    It depends... but without any other circumstances, I would think that (unloaded/encased in backpack) would probably be found to be concealed.
    ( Makes one wonder about the law when purchasing a pistol; encased before leaving the seller's business and walking across a parking lot to your car.)

    If I can find it, I did have some MI-based court cases which basically said that a pistol, which is in a number of pieces, can not be deemed concealed. The courts reasoning was that the intent of the law was so that a person could not immediately pull an unseen pistol out and kill someone. I believe that a Detroit-area prosecutor was arguing that this "loophole" (sic) needs to be "fixed" (sic). When I get some time the next few days, I will have to look for it...

    Notice that the law talks about "possession" and a few of the court cases dealing with the charge of CCW talk about "possessory interest". Looking at the definition that follows, perhaps having some sort of permission for your "exclusive" right to camp on your friend's land, or at least that particular location, MAY help you at least keep concealed in your tent or at the campsite.

    possessory interest (legal definition) n
    The right to control a property and to exclude others for the present, exercised by one who is not necessarily the owner. A current or future exclusive right to possession and use of a property. write('Webster's New World Law Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Hoboken, New Jersey.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I am not looking to conceal it. I have no need to I just want to know if a tent or having it in my back back over night for safe keeping is considered concealed, I would not have the back pack on my person so I would think that would be ok but I am not sure.

    Worst comes to worst I'll sleep OC'in the damn thing

    I guess what I am saying is I don't want it laying out in the open when its not on me.

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    Venator and I also talked about the unloaded gun in a case. show me a law that says I cannot legally transport a pistol for a lawful purpose. ex. Walking, riding a pedal bike, hiking, or camping etc. I have no CPL so I unload the fire arm place it in a case. First how would they know it is in there, and second, if I am carrying it for a lawful purpose (Self defense) what is the law I am breaking? In a trunk the gun is in the trunk and in the case, and not considered concealed because it is not loaded, and that is the way the law prescribes. Carrying in a case in the back pack unloaded should have not been an issue, unless it was a PFZ where a CPL is required to posses a fire arm, but then again if it was in a case who would know unless they were giving people a suspicious cause to ask?

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    DrTodd wrote:
    (I am not a lawyer and this is my educated personal opinion, nothing more)


    It depends... but without any other circumstances, I would think that (unloaded/encased in backpack) would probably be found to be concealed.
    ( Makes one wonder about the law when purchasing a pistol; encased before leaving the seller's business and walking across a parking lot to your car.)

    If I can find it, I did have some MI-based court cases which basically said that a pistol, which is in a number of pieces, can not be deemed concealed. The courts reasoning was that the intent of the law was so that a person could not immediately pull an unseen pistol out and kill someone. I believe that a Detroit-area prosecutor was arguing that this "loophole" (sic) needs to be "fixed" (sic). When I get some time the next few days, I will have to look for it...

    Notice that the law talks about "possession" and a few of the court cases dealing with the charge of CCW talk about "possessory interest". Looking at the definition that follows, perhaps having some sort of permission for your "exclusive" right to camp on your friend's land, or at least that particular location, MAY help you at least keep concealed in your tent or at the campsite.

    possessory interest (legal definition) n
    The right to control a property and to exclude others for the present, exercised by one who is not necessarily the owner. A current or future exclusive right to possession and use of a property. write('Webster's New World Law Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Hoboken, New Jersey.
    In thecase you cite she was carrying a loaded pistol, which COULD make a difference. The wording of the statute could be argued to include an unloaded pistol, BUT my OPINION is that they are referring to a loaded pistol. But as you say it depends.

    Cross Pistols and also discussed this and were talking about someone carrying a pistol unloaded in a gun case or briefcase around town on foot. Would this be carrying a concealed weapon? Improper transport? Based on the statute MAYBE MAYBE NOT. People do transport pistols this way into/out ofgun stores, hotels, etc...
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    (I am not a lawyer and this is my educated personal opinion, nothing more)


    It depends... but without any other circumstances, I would think that (unloaded/encased in backpack) would probably be found to be concealed.
    ( Makes one wonder about the law when purchasing a pistol; encased before leaving the seller's business and walking across a parking lot to your car.)

    If I can find it, I did have some MI-based court cases which basically said that a pistol, which is in a number of pieces, can not be deemed concealed. The courts reasoning was that the intent of the law was so that a person could not immediately pull an unseen pistol out and kill someone. I believe that a Detroit-area prosecutor was arguing that this "loophole" (sic) needs to be "fixed" (sic). When I get some time the next few days, I will have to look for it...

    Notice that the law talks about "possession" and a few of the court cases dealing with the charge of CCW talk about "possessory interest". Looking at the definition that follows, perhaps having some sort of permission for your "exclusive" right to camp on your friend's land, or at least that particular location, MAY help you at least keep concealed in your tent or at the campsite.

    possessory interest (legal definition) n
    The right to control a property and to exclude others for the present, exercised by one who is not necessarily the owner. A current or future exclusive right to possession and use of a property. write('Webster's New World Law Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Hoboken, New Jersey.
    In thecase you cite she was carrying a loaded pistol, which COULD make a difference. The wording of the statute could be argued to include an unloaded pistol, BUT my OPINION is that they are referring to a loaded pistol. But as you say it depends.

    Cross Pistols and also discussed this and were talking about someone carrying a pistol unloaded in a gun case or briefcase around town on foot. Would this be carrying a concealed weapon? Improper transport? Based on the statute MAYBE MAYBE NOT. People do transport pistols this way into/out ofgun stores, hotels, etc...
    I think we talked about this a looong time ago...
    The issue I have with your "interpretation", and I say this only because we are not lawyers so it is really "amateur v amateur" is that the law does not use the term "loaded" for CCW law. If it's not in there...
    An interesting aside, I know that our neighbor to the west, Wisconsin, apparently has some of the same issues in their law. Master Doug Huffman (is he really that young?) has put together a video about the issue there and it seems to be somewhat similar to here: transporting pistols seems to expose one to a charge of CCW at least somewhere in the process... Now if I could just find that video.... ah... found it:
    http://www.vimeo.com/6115265
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    324.43513 Carrying, transporting, or possessing firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow; hunting license not required; carrying or possessing unloaded weapon.
    Sec. 43513.

    (1) A person may carry, transport, or possess a firearm without a hunting license if the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and either enclosed in a case or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle. A person may carry, transport, or possess a slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow without a hunting license if the slingshot, bow, or crossbow is unstrung, enclosed in a case, or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

    (2) Regardless of whether the person has a license or it is open season for the taking of game, a person may carry, transport, possess or discharge a firearm, a bow and arrow, or a crossbow if all of the following apply:

    (a) The person is not taking or attempting to take game but is engaged in 1 or more of the following activities:

    (i) Target practice using an identifiable, artificially constructed target or targets.

    (ii) Practice with silhouettes, plinking, skeet, or trap.

    (iii) Sighting-in the firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow.

    (b) The person is, or is accompanied by or has the permission of, either of the following:

    (i) The owner of the property on which the activity under subdivision (a) is taking place.

    (ii) The lessee of that property for a term of not less than 1 year.

    (c) The owner or lessee of the property does not receive remuneration for the activity under subdivision (a).

    (3) A person may carry or possess an unloaded weapon at any time if the person is traveling to or from or participating in a historical reenactment.




    If the gun is in the case, unloaded then you are legal. If this was not the case we would all be in violation going to and from the shooting range or gun shop.



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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    coffee4meplz wrote:
    324.43513 Carrying, transporting, or possessing firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow; hunting license not required; carrying or possessing unloaded weapon.
    Sec. 43513.

    (1) A person may carry, transport, or possess a firearm without a hunting license if the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and either enclosed in a case or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle. A person may carry, transport, or possess a slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow without a hunting license if the slingshot, bow, or crossbow is unstrung, enclosed in a case, or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

    (2) Regardless of whether the person has a license or it is open season for the taking of game, a person may carry, transport, possess or discharge a firearm, a bow and arrow, or a crossbow if all of the following apply:

    (a) The person is not taking or attempting to take game but is engaged in 1 or more of the following activities:

    (i) Target practice using an identifiable, artificially constructed target or targets.

    (ii) Practice with silhouettes, plinking, skeet, or trap.

    (iii) Sighting-in the firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow.

    (b) The person is, or is accompanied by or has the permission of, either of the following:

    (i) The owner of the property on which the activity under subdivision (a) is taking place.

    (ii) The lessee of that property for a term of not less than 1 year.

    (c) The owner or lessee of the property does not receive remuneration for the activity under subdivision (a).

    (3) A person may carry or possess an unloaded weapon at any time if the person is traveling to or from or participating in a historical reenactment.




    If the gun is in the case, unloaded then you are legal. If this was not the case we would all be in violation going to and from the shooting range or gun shop.

    Just wondering if your citation could be successfully used to fend off a CCW charge:
    I don't think so but you may be correct. So you think that unloaded in a case would cover any ccw charge? Hmmm.... it appears if I was carrying while on my way to a historical reenactment, I could carry anywhere too. Is that what your think?
    I do know that generally, if two laws cover a subject, BOTH laws are operative so one could appear legal here, still violate the CCW law as that is elsewhere.
    BTW, what you listed above comes from the NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT and in no way affects the ccw charge---there is no exception in the CCW law for pistols which are unloaded... it's not there.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Just wondering if your citation could be successfully used to fend off a CCW charge:
    I don't think so but you may be correct. So you think that unloaded in a case would cover any ccw charge? Hmmm.... it appears if I was carrying while on my way to a historical reenactment, I could carry anywhere too. Is that what your think?
    I do know that generally, if two laws cover a subject, BOTH laws are operative so one could appear legal here, still violate the CCW law as that is elsewhere.
    BTW, what you listed above comes from the NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT and in no way affects the ccw charge---there is no exception in the CCW law for pistols which are unloaded... it's not there.
    If a weapon is unloaded, in a case you can transport it. If this was not true, you would be in violation every time you carry your weapon! Think about it this way, When you purchase a pistol it is put in a case and then you transport it to your vehicle right? If this law did not cover that then all transportation of a firearm would fall under the "CCW" and it would be illegal to transport a weapon.

    Now if the pistol was just in a backpack unloaded police/judge might not considerthe backpack as a case,but if they gun was unloaded, cased inside the backpack then I see no way to charge for "CCW".

    Key words are Transport and Carry....."CCW" falls under carry...are you carrying the weapon or transporting it?

    Transport or transportation is the movement of people and goods from one location to another. So are you carrying or transporting?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Although it is tempting to agree with the "cased, unloaded" argument, I think people are getting caught up in what they believe to be true versus what is "true". What is true may likely depend how motivated a prosecutor is to convict you. How you carry or transport is your choice; remember a felony conviction would preclude you from possession of a firearm. The argument "well everyone else does it" will, I assure you, fall on very deaf ears when you are standing before a judge. The reason for this would take much longer to explain than a short post on OCDO. Suffice it to say that 2 or more laws dealing with the same subject are both operative. The issue of which MCL is used for which behavior is borne out in court cases and regrettably, there are few. So let it be decided by a judge and be happy with the outcome.
    As for me, I try to avoid behavior which could be judged as "felonious". You don't have to agree with my interpretation, but it is operative for me and, in the end, I guess that is what matters.
    Those of you here that know me also know that I tend to push the envelope on some CC/OC issues-- especially the OC in PFZ's and travel w/ firearm in Illinois. I realize the difference of opinion and am willing to accept that a judge one day may see it otherwise. But, I would never advocate that someone follow my lead, in fact I would suggest that they don't. On OCDO I believe that what I post usually must be the most conservative interpretation possible and I often play devil's advocate to find out what could possibly get someone in trouble. I would never want someone who follows my advice to end up suffering from my interpretation.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    coffee4meplz wrote:
    [quote]
    *

    Now if the pistol was just in a backpack unloaded police/judge might not consider*the backpack as a case,*but if they gun was unloaded, cased inside the backpack then I see no way to charge for "CCW".

    Key words are Transport and Carry....."CCW" falls under carry...are you carrying the weapon or transporting it?

    Since you see no violation if the pistol is unloaded and encased, I am sure that the LEO or judge will certainly say "Gee, you saw it on OCDO, I guess I don't have a case... my sincere apologies". Rrriiigghhtt!
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    If not the case, how would one transport a firearm legally?

  20. #20
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    You couldn't. Before 2006 the law stated you could only transport a handgun under very specific conditions. Any variance and you were cited for unlawful transport of a handgun. They have since revised that and you can now transport a handgun for a lawful purpose.

    It was this change in the law that finally allowed people the right to transport a handgun (in a vehicle) so they could OC, without having to walk everywhere.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Brian is correct. I talked w/ an attorney about the "purchase a pistol and get charged with concealed" issue and he basically said what Brian said. In fact, I believe that the only place that you could transport or carry a pistol at one time was to your home. Also, if you look through the Attorney General opinions until about the 1980's, the AG seems to underscore if you weren't bringing a pistol home for protection or getting it repaired, you basically could only transport to a range. Since that time, exceptions were carved out but very few legislators think to look through the other MCL's to see if the law needs to be cleaned up elsewhere. Eventually, someone may catch it, but it does tend to take many years.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

    1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

    28.421 Definitions.

    (b) "Firearm" means a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air. Firearm does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, BB's not exceeding .177 caliber.

    e) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm.

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment

    324.43513 Carrying, transporting, or possessing firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow; hunting license not required; carrying or possessing unloaded weapon.
    Sec. 43513.

    (1) A person may carry, transport, or possess a firearm without a hunting license if the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and either enclosed in a case or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle. A person may carry, transport, or possess a slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow without a hunting license if the slingshot, bow, or crossbow is unstrung, enclosed in a case, or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

    (2) Regardless of whether the person has a license or it is open season for the taking of game, a person may carry, transport, possess or discharge a firearm, a bow and arrow, or a crossbow if all of the following apply:

    (a) The person is not taking or attempting to take game but is engaged in 1 or more of the following activities:

    (i) Target practice using an identifiable, artificially constructed target or targets.

    (ii) Practice with silhouettes, plinking, skeet, or trap.

    (iii) Sighting-in the firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow.

    (b) The person is, or is accompanied by or has the permission of, either of the following:

    (i) The owner of the property on which the activity under subdivision (a) is taking place.

    (ii) The lessee of that property for a term of not less than 1 year.

    (c) The owner or lessee of the property does not receive remuneration for the activity under subdivision (a).

    (3) A person may carry or possess an unloaded weapon at any time if the person is traveling to or from or participating in a historical reenactment.


    Laws are so confusing by design!

    First law listed says I must obtain a License to purchase, carry or transport. That means I need to register my pistol. Registration would be my "License" correct?

    Definition of pistol:

    e) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm.

    So now I went and registered my pistol (safety inspection) Which gives methe License that allows me to carry, posses or transport it but I am in violation because a pistol by definition "conceals it" . Is this correct? (you following me so far?)

    The next cited law says: 1) A person may carry, transport, or possess a firearm without a hunting license if the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and either enclosed in a case or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

    Now since "Pistol" was defined as a concealed weapon by design maybe this law wouldn't apply although "firearm" was also defined in the same section as "b) "Firearm" means a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air." which doesn't exclude a pistol. So now I have aquired a "License" to purchase and transport my "Pistol" which by design is a concealed weapon which puts me in violation of a "CCW" but then I am allow to carry and transport this "concealed weapon" as long as it is unloaded and in a case?.....AHHHH my head hurts! but wait it gets better

    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.



    Sec. 227d.

    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Taken down.

    (b) Enclosed in a case.

    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.




    "Pistol" has be defined as Loaded or Unloaded under 30 inches....Now this law say "other than a pistol" Which seems to imply that I can carry my unloaded or loaded, "conceal weapon" by design "pistol" in a motor vehicle because this law "other than"

    I can go on and on....So my point is this, Laws are made to confuse people, confuse "peace officers", confuse judges and confuseour own legislators. Then these confusing laws are sent to the Attorney General to have him/her to give an opinion from his own cofused mind! Then some poor slob is arrested,sent to jail, goes to court, the confused judge then convicts, appeal is made, sent to supreme court where the try to figure out what all these confusing laws meant, make a ruling and then we, the confused law abiding citizen try to debate each other with case law on what we can and can not do.....Did I get this right?


    Have you heard of "Rule of Lenity"

    is a common-law canon of construction that requires courts, when interpreting an ambiguous criminal statute, to give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant, rather than the state

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    I am not a lawyer and my opinion carries no legal weight. That being said, I believe that while on private property you can do whatever you want (CC/OC etc) with permission of the owner (excluding businesses and other land specifically regulated, of course.). While on public land and/or driving you would have to follow applicable law as cited by other posters.

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