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Thread: carry in a national park

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    so whats the law for carrying a weapon on national parks. is it like state where you can conceal or whats the deal.

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    The park follows the laws of the state it is located in.


    States dont have rights. People do.

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    mrjam2jab wrote:
    The park follows the laws of the state it is located in.

    ya but that does not go for state parks in pa . see open carry is legel in pa but you have to conceal in a state park. borough parks follow pa state laws

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    spencer280 wrote:
    mrjam2jab wrote:
    The park follows the laws of the state it is located in.

    ya but that does not go for state parks in pa . see open carry is legel in pa but you have to conceal in a state park. borough parks follow pa state laws
    Your question specified "national parks"...You may carry open or concealed in a national park in PA. ...as long as you dont enter any building that has Park staff stationed in it. Those buildings must have signage.
    States dont have rights. People do.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    I'm not a lawyer and am not offering you any legal advice. Consult an attorney in Pennsylvania before you do anything.

    To my knowledge, Pennsylvania does not have any statutory law that prohibits the open carrying of firearms in any parks. As far as I know, any rules enacted by the PA DCNR only apply to those lands and property under the jurisdiction of the PA DCNR. The DCNR does not have jurisdiction over National Parks. Therefore, if my information is correct, it ought to be lawful to OC in a National Park in Pennsylvania.


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    spencer280 wrote:
    mrjam2jab wrote:
    The park follows the laws of the state it is located in.

    ya but that does not go for state parks in pa . see open carry is legel in pa but you have to conceal in a state park. borough parks follow pa state laws
    National parks (including recreation areas and anything else under the "national park" umbrella now follows state law. For Pennsylvania, that means concealed carry with a license or open carry with or without a license (Philadelphia requires a license, the rest of the Commonwealth does not). Occupied buildings are off limits. Separate toilet facilities are not.

    For Pennsylvania State Parks, 17 Pa. Code
    §11.215(4) prohibits the carrying of firearms in state parks. 18 Pa. C.S. § 6109(m.2), however, authorizes concealed carry in state parks by a licensee.

    Borough, city, county and township parks are preempted by
    18 Pa. C.S. § 6120(a) from regulating the carrying of firearms, thus state law applies.

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    \
    thank you well wrote
    ya but that does not go for state parks in pa . see open carry is legel in pa but you have to conceal in a state park. borough parks follow pa state laws
    National parks (including recreation areas and anything else under the "national park" umbrella now follows state law. For Pennsylvania, that means concealed carry with a license or open carry with or without a license (Philadelphia requires a license, the rest of the Commonwealth does not). Occupied buildings are off limits. Separate toilet facilities are not.

    For Pennsylvania State Parks, 17 Pa. Code
    §11.215(4) prohibits the carrying of firearms in state parks. 18 Pa. C.S. § 6109(m.2), however, authorizes concealed carry in state parks by a licensee.

    Borough, city, county and township parks are preempted by
    18 Pa. C.S. § 6120(a) from regulating the carrying of firearms, thus state law applies.

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    spencer280 wrote:
    thank you well wrote
    ya but that does not go for state parks in pa . see open carry is legel in pa but you have to conceal in a state park. borough parks follow pa state laws
    National parks (including recreation areas and anything else under the "national park" umbrella now follows state law. For Pennsylvania, that means concealed carry with a license or open carry with or without a license (Philadelphia requires a license, the rest of the Commonwealth does not). Occupied buildings are off limits. Separate toilet facilities are not.

    For Pennsylvania State Parks, 17 Pa. Code
    §11.215(4) prohibits the carrying of firearms in state parks. 18 Pa. C.S. § 6109(m.2), however, authorizes concealed carry in state parks by a licensee.

    Borough, city, county and township parks are preempted by
    18 Pa. C.S. § 6120(a) from regulating the carrying of firearms, thus state law applies.
    Is there any regulation regarding which kind of license you must hold to conceal carry in PA state parks?

    Right now, I only have my PA "Sportsman Firearms Permit". Would that be adequate while fishing in a PA state park?


    .
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    you have to have a LTCF to carry a concealed weapon and to transport it in a car. you get that in the sheriffs office

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    spencer280 wrote:
    you have to have a LTCF to carry a concealed weapon and to transport it in a car. you get that in the sheriffs office
    Actually the sportsman's permit works too under some conditions - anybody have that cite handy?

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    spencer280 wrote:
    you have to have a LTCF to carry a concealed weapon and to transport it in a car. you get that in the sheriffs office
    That is NOT true.
    My Sportsman Firearms Permit says "This pernit must be carried in conjunction with a valid fishing, hunting, fur taking or permit to train hunting dogs or going to or from the place you intend to hunt, fish, fur take or train hunting dogs"

    So the question remains, if in PA state parks you are allowed to CC with a valid "permit or license" would a SFP be sufficient?

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    Mike wrote:
    spencer280 wrote:
    you have to have a LTCF to carry a concealed weapon and to transport it in a car. you get that in the sheriffs office
    Actually the sportsman's permit works too under some conditions - anybody have that cite handy?
    I think you're referring to 18 Pa.C.S. 6106(c).

    (c) Sportsman's firearm permit.-- (1) Before any exception shall be granted under paragraph (b)(9) or (10) of this section to any person 18 years of age or older licensed to hunt, trap or fish or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, such person shall, at the time of securing his hunting, furtaking or fishing license or any time after such license has been issued, secure a sportsman's firearm permit from the county treasurer. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be issued immediately and be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years from the date of issue for any legal firearm, when carried in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license or permit relating to hunting dogs. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be in triplicate on a form to be furnished by the Pennsylvania State Police. The original permit shall be delivered to the person, and the first copy thereof, within seven days, shall be forwarded to the Commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police by the county treasurer. The second copy shall be retained by the county treasurer for a period of two years from the date of expiration. The county treasurer shall be entitled to collect a fee of not more than $6 for each such permit issued, which shall include the cost of any official form. The Pennsylvania State Police may recover from the county treasurer the cost of any such form, but may not charge more than $1 for each official permit form furnished to the county treasurer.

    (b)(9) and (10) included here for reference:
    (9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing as permitted by such license, or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
    (10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.


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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Sig229 wrote:
    So the question remains, if in PA state parks you are allowed to CC with a valid "permit or license" would a SFP be sufficient?
    .
    I think no, unless you are lawfully hunting and the firearm you are carrying is lawful for hunting. The term "licensee" in 18 Pa.C.S. Sec. 6109(m.2) specifically means a person licensed under section 6109. An SFP is under section 6106 and not mentioned anywhere in 6109.


    18 Pa.C.S. Sec. 6109
    (m.2) Inconsistent provisions.--Notwithstanding the provisions of section 7506 (relating to violation of rules regarding conduct on Commonwealth property), 75 Pa.C.S. § 7727 (relating to additional limitations on operation) or the act of June 28, 1995 (P.L. 89, No. 18), [FN3] known as the Conservation and Natural Resources Act, and regulations promulgated under that act, a firearm may be carried as provided in subsection (a) by: (1) a law enforcement officer whose current identification as a law enforcement officer shall be construed as a valid license to carry a firearm; or (2) any licensee.

    (n) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "licensee" means an individual who is licensed to carry a firearm under this section.



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    virginiatuck wrote:
    Sig229 wrote:
    So the question remains, if in PA state parks you are allowed to CC with a valid "permit or license" would a SFP be sufficient?
    .
    I think no, unless you are lawfully hunting and the firearm you are carrying is lawful for hunting. The term "licensee" in 18 Pa.C.S. Sec. 6109(m.2) specifically means a person licensed under section 6109. An SFP is under section 6106 and not mentioned anywhere in 6109.


    18 Pa.C.S. Sec. 6109
    (m.2) Inconsistent provisions.--Notwithstanding the provisions of section 7506 (relating to violation of rules regarding conduct on Commonwealth property), 75 Pa.C.S. § 7727 (relating to additional limitations on operation) or the act of June 28, 1995 (P.L. 89, No. 18), [FN3] known as the Conservation and Natural Resources Act, and regulations promulgated under that act, a firearm may be carried as provided in subsection (a) by: (1) a law enforcement officer whose current identification as a law enforcement officer shall be construed as a valid license to carry a firearm; or (2) any licensee.

    (n) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "licensee" means an individual who is licensed to carry a firearm under this section.
    OK, good catch - but if one can fish in the state park, then the Sportsmens' permit would likley be construed to preempt the regulation or the intent of the act wuold be viewed as including this permit too - somebody needs to ask Kim Stolfer at ACSL about this issue to see if it was discussed or thought of when this clarification to the UFA was p[assed a couple of years ago.

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    (emphasis added)

    <<any person 18 years of age or older licensed to hunt, trap or fish or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, such person shall, at the time of securing his hunting, furtaking or fishing license or any time after such license has been issued, secure a sportsman's firearm permit from the county treasurer>>

    That seems to read that the 'sportsman' is expected to obtain the permit (although it appears to be an open time frame).

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    Mr H wrote:
    (emphasis added)

    <<any person 18 years of age or older licensed to hunt, trap or fish or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, such person shall, at the time of securing his hunting, furtaking or fishing license or any time after such license has been issued, secure a sportsman's firearm permit from the county treasurer>>

    That seems to read that the 'sportsman' is expected to obtain the permit (although it appears to be an open time frame).
    The time frame is specified, but you cut it off of your quote.

    "Before any exception shall be granted..."

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    Maybe I'm blind (I've been accused of worse!!)... Or maybe the legalese is my problem.

    The only thing I see related to the time in which the permit should be issued is the 5-year validity period of the permit itself, once the hunting (etc.) license is issued.

    I see the "requirement" (my term) to have the sportsmen's permit as a good thing... I just found it interesting that it reads "shall".

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Mr H wrote:
    Maybe I'm blind (I've been accused of worse!!)... Or maybe the legalese is my problem.

    The only thing I see related to the time in which the permit should be issued is the 5-year validity period of the permit itself, once the hunting (etc.) license is issued.

    I see the "requirement" (my term) to have the sportsmen's permit as a good thing... I just found it interesting that it reads "shall".
    It seems like you think it means that anyone 18 or older licensed to hunt must get an SFP. It doesn't. Maybe if you read the whole law it'd make more sense to you.

    http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...out-a-license/

    The clause you seem to be ignoring is "Before any exception shall be granted under paragraph (b)(9) or (10) of this section"

    If you don't care to be granted the exceptions in (b)(9) or (10), then you don't have to get the SFP.

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    OK here is a good thing to remember . a LTCF is only 20.00 just buy it and then you don't have to worry about it. you will have a permit and no worries

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    spencer280 wrote:
    OK here is a good thing to remember . a LTCF is only 20.00 just buy it and then you don't have to worry about it. you will have a permit and no worries
    $20? Who is only charging that much? :shock::P
    States dont have rights. People do.

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    the sheriffs office. it's like 20 - 25 bucks and it last 5 yrs. . not much to ensure that your legal. its better that the other way


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    spencer280 wrote:
    the sheriffs office. it's like 20 - 25 bucks and it last 5 yrs. . not much to ensure that your legal. its better that the other way
    Gotchya. I thought you had one of those sheriffs that wasn't charging enough :P

    Armstrong County...$26. $1 above legal....not bad compared to my county..:shock:
    States dont have rights. People do.

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    I must ask the following:

    Why is a state park not the same unified (preempted) rules as are applied to the rest of the national and local parks and recreation areas?

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    lockman wrote:
    I must ask the following:

    Why is a state park not the same unified (preempted) rules as are applied to the rest of the national and local parks and recreation areas?
    Pennsylvania's preemption statute, 18 Pa.C.S.A Sec. 6120 states:
    (a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

    I do not believe the PA DCNR falls under that umbrella; it is an administrative department in the executive branch of the Commonwealth, not a county, municipality, or township.

    I also think the authority to regulate the carrying of firearms in state parks is granted somewhere within 71 P.S. Sec. 1340.101 et seq. I haven't read the entire act, so I don't know specifically where it is. That act, the Conservation and Natural Resources Act, is specifically referred to in 18 Pa.C.S.A 6109(m.2) which furthers my suspicion that it is the source of the DCNR's power to regulate the carrying of firearms.

    "National and local parks and recreation areas" are not under the jurisdiction of the DCNR. National parks are under the National Parks Service; local parks and such are under local counties, municipalities, or townships.

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