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If budgets are bare...what's a citizen to do?

Metalhead47

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
Hmmm yet you stated about a rural setting.

You asked for a cite and I'm asking for one back.since you made the assertion. First its only fair.

The problem with beauracracy even good ones like LEO and police they become a tax burden and continue to grow. Ask the one non inion firestation here in Bham why they are excluded out of the new "fire conglomerate" yet the folks in their district had their taxes raised for it.

Refineries should have their own response teams, specialized for that type of fire.

Ok, maybe I was unclear with some remark. I'm saying an amature, all-volunteer fire/police dept is impractical in a city of any size. Now in a small, rural community, that's another matter. Less complex societies need fewer services. Give me a few hours, I'll see what I can dig up on lives & property saved by tax-funded fire depts. Now if you wanna go throwing the foibles of unions into the mix too, that's a can o worms of a whole nuther flavor :banghead:
 

sudden valley gunner

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I agree with you on the unions.Large incorporated cities should have something set up. Me I'd rather have. Freedom than be forced to pay for something.property taxes are getting out of control. And if there were other alternatives to it I'm not against it.
 

killchain

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Nosrac wrote:
The 1911 is a curse to reassemble?

That is surprising as it is extremely simple. The only potential issue is getting the disconnector and sear to line up buteven that isn't all that hard.

lolwut. Compare it to, well, any pistol today and tell me that's still true. My Sig, FN, Beretta, etc. are "lock back, flip switch, pull."

I looked like a certain primate trying to copulate with a leather object the first time I tried to put together a 1911. Admittedly I had never took one apart before (I was learning!) but that zany locking whatchamacallit barrel and that rotating cap thingy with the springamajig and it's cap and UGH hand me my Sig.
 

Statkowski

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Hi-Point seriously recommends not field stripping one of their handguns. After 2-3,000 rounds just send it back to the factory for a total rebuild.

As for maintenance, an oiled rag or boresnake down the bore every now and then will do fine. Got some compressed air available? Give the handgun a blast every now and then.

Nothing fancy, nothing complicated. It's ugly, but it works.
 

Washintonian_For_Liberty

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Mercer Island, Washington, USA
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Metalhead47 wrote:
Aaron1124 wrote:
Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
_________________________________________________________________

We need only a bare bones sheriff dept and 25% of citizens willing to deputize when the Sheriff needs more help.

Just like we don't need professional fire departments, we also don't need professional police. We just need to renew our commitment to our communities and become stronger at protecting ourselves.
I wouldn't have a problem with that if people actually did it.


dude I'm gonna butt heads with you on that one. An all-volunteer fire dept might work for a small town out in the styx like where my wife grew up (her dad's the volunteer fire cheif there), but there's no way that could work in a major city like Seattle or even Lynnwood. The technical knowledge & training requirements are simply too great in an urban fire dept for a bunch of amateurs. The amount and cost of training, not to mention the need for moment's notice dispatch from the fire station, demands a professional staff. The same can be said for an urban/suburban police force. A large, complex society needs a certain amount of essential gov't services & regulation, and larger & more complex that society, the more it needs. Which is not to excuse the gross overreach of the current federal & local gov'ts, but SOME government is required. Now if we eliminated public education & social programs, there'd be more than enough left to fund proper fire & police depts, with a huge tax break to boot.
___________________________________________________________

You are very wrong and quite condescending. The only reason things are so complex is because the lawyers and government officials make it that way with their bullshit laws. As for technical knowledge... give me a break... Firefighters knowledge is easily learned by any half intelligent person... formulas for mixing water and foam or operating a pump truck or a ladder truck are all very simple... it isn't rocket science. The only people who WANT there to continue to be publicly funded professional fire departments are either ignorant of what it takes to be a fire fighter... or they want to keep taking our money. 90% of the calls our local fire department responds to require only an EMT crew.... yet they usually respond with one Fire truck and the EMS van... total waste of money and man power. Six firefighters responding to a heart attack?

Sorry, but if you put these efforts into the hands of bureaucrats, you will get ONLY waste. A private ambulance company could handle this much better and for 1/6 the cost. The few fires that do happen can be easily taken care of by a volunteer force... I'd match any volunteer force with any professional force any day... and give the edge to the volunteers.

 

killchain

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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:


...The only people who WANT there to continue to be publicly funded professional fire departments are either ignorant of what it takes to be a fire fighter... or they want to keep taking our money. 90% of the calls our local fire department responds to require only an EMT crew.... yet they usually respond with one Fire truck and the EMS van... total waste of money and man power. Six firefighters responding to a heart attack? ...

Yeah... except when the private ambulance owner doesn't want to get up at 3am, and when they try to press charges on him he says, "Well, it's my own private business. I can do what I want."

And if YOU were having a heart attack, you'd be PISSED that they didn't send all of that for you.
 

Metalhead47

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Statkowski wrote:
Hi-Point seriously recommends not field stripping one of their handguns.  After 2-3,000 rounds just send it back to the factory for a total rebuild.

As for maintenance, an oiled rag or boresnake down the bore every now and then will do fine.  Got some compressed air available?  Give the handgun a blast every now and then.

Nothing fancy, nothing complicated.  It's ugly, but it works.

Where did you see this? I checked the manual just last night and got the 300/1500 recommendations mentioned earlier.
 

Metalhead47

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Whoah man, you're basically calling firefighters "half intelligent" & call ME condescending? Yes, a small, rural community could be quite adequately served by a volunteer fire dept. Mine is now, my wife's hometown is too. But thats communities of only a few hundred to a couple thousand people. But for Seattle? It just can't work. Start throwing high-rises, industrial chemicals, & other big city things into the mix and you need specially trained, professional personnel ready to roll from a station at a moment's notice. Now you've got a point about sending out a fire truck for something EMS should handle, but that's a specific flaw in the system that can & should be fixed. It's not justification to completely scrap the system.


Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
[/b]You are very wrong and quite condescending. The only reason things are so complex is because the lawyers and government officials make it that way with their bull@#$% laws. As for technical knowledge... give me a break... Firefighters knowledge is easily learned by any half intelligent person... formulas for mixing water and foam or operating a pump truck or a ladder truck are all very simple... it isn't rocket science. The only people who WANT there to continue to be publicly funded professional fire departments are either ignorant of what it takes to be a fire fighter... or they want to keep taking our money. 90% of the calls our local fire department responds to require only an EMT crew.... yet they usually respond with one Fire truck and the EMS van... total waste of money and man power. Six firefighters responding to a heart attack?

Sorry, but if you put these efforts into the hands of bureaucrats, you will get ONLY waste. A private ambulance company could handle this much better and for 1/6 the cost. The few fires that do happen can be easily taken care of by a volunteer force... I'd match any volunteer force with any professional force any day... and give the edge to the volunteers.

[/quote]
 

Metalhead47

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
I agree with you on the unions.Large incorporated cities should have something set up. Me I'd rather have. Freedom than be forced to pay for something.property taxes are getting out of control. And if there were other alternatives to it I'm not against it.

Now I'm definitely with you on that one. I loathe property taxes with a burning, seething hatred (and I've never actually paid any). Something about the gov't charging people rent to live in their own homes just makes me want to :banghead::cuss:
9.gif
. But I digress. Eliminate all the liberal nonsense till nothing's left but the military, NASA, and a handful of legitimate, necessary, and CONSTITUTIONALLY VALID regulatory agencies & services, and we could pay for the whole thing with a few tariffs & 5% sales tax.
 

ak56

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Aug 10, 2009
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Carnation, Washington, USA
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sudden valley gunner wrote:
Can't be much harder than a ruger Mark I.

You just have to practice a few times and the Ruger gets easier, as long as you remember when to point up, then down - or was it down, then up, or...:cry:

...OK, sometimes it takes me a few minutes to remember.
 

Nosrac

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Lakewood, Washington, USA
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killchain wrote:
Nosrac wrote:
The 1911 is a curse to reassemble?

That is surprising as it is extremely simple. The only potential issue is getting the disconnector and sear to line up buteven that isn't all that hard.

lolwut. Compare it to, well, any pistol today and tell me that's still true. My Sig, FN, Beretta, etc. are "lock back, flip switch, pull."

I looked like a certain primate trying to copulate with a leather object the first time I tried to put together a 1911. Admittedly I had never took one apart before (I was learning!) but that zany locking whatchamacallit barrel and that rotating cap thingy with the springamajig and it's cap and UGH hand me my Sig.
LOL.

My XD is similar to your "lock back, flip switch, pull"routine. The only time I've ever broken that one all the way down was to install a better trigger group.
 

Washintonian_For_Liberty

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Mercer Island, Washington, USA
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killchain wrote:
Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:


...The only people who WANT there to continue to be publicly funded professional fire departments are either ignorant of what it takes to be a fire fighter... or they want to keep taking our money. 90% of the calls our local fire department responds to require only an EMT crew.... yet they usually respond with one Fire truck and the EMS van... total waste of money and man power. Six firefighters responding to a heart attack? ...

Yeah... except when the private ambulance owner doesn't want to get up at 3am, and when they try to press charges on him he says, "Well, it's my own private business. I can do what I want."

And if YOU were having a heart attack, you'd be PISSED that they didn't send all of that for you.
You're not a business owner are you? In fact, you probably have no clue what it means to run and grow a good business. There are more private ambulance services in this country than there are public... and the private have a much better track record for response time and care given... so do some research before you make claims that are not supported by the facts. Private EMS providers outperform government in many categories. For example, 70 percent of private agencies have defibrillation devices (used for heart attacks), compared to only 48 percent of city fire-rescue agencies and rescue workers. More private agencies (48 percent) are using advanced technology, such as the automotive vehicle locator, than city fire-rescue agencies (20 percent). Perhaps most important of all, 66 percent of private, for-profit EMS providers are subject to external reviews by their governing municipalities while bureaucracies just cannot audit themselves with any honesty. Private EMS firms also can provide services less expensively than fire departments. For instance, privately employed paramedics (who make up 34.5 percent of all paramedics) don't cost as much as government firefighters. Typically, they make about 75 percent of the firefighters wages. And one hook-and-ladder truck used on an EMS run costs more than six ambulances.
In addition, contracts between municipalities and private EMS providers are moving to a performance-based model that ties funding, payment and resource allocation to the performance of the providers. Private firms are also are making better use of technology and accessing advanced equipment more quickly than public agencies-and enhanced technology promises to increase efficiency and save lives.

The same can be said about private fire fighting firms... the city pays private companies, and every four years, put the firefighting contract out for bid...
Having firefighters and EMS as public employees insures a worse job performance and a much higher expense.
As for the original topic... we don't need a huge police force... what we need is to stop arresting people for crimes where the only victim is the person supposedly committing the crime. We need to demand our State Lawmakers decriminalize all drugs. We need to demand our lawmakers stop enforcing and eliminate all seat belt laws... we need to stop making laws which give police the right to use force against people committing these victimless crimes.
 

killchain

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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
killchain wrote:
Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:


...The only people who WANT there to continue to be publicly funded professional fire departments are either ignorant of what it takes to be a fire fighter... or they want to keep taking our money. 90% of the calls our local fire department responds to require only an EMT crew.... yet they usually respond with one Fire truck and the EMS van... total waste of money and man power. Six firefighters responding to a heart attack? ...

Yeah... except when the private ambulance owner doesn't want to get up at 3am, and when they try to press charges on him he says, "Well, it's my own private business. I can do what I want."

And if YOU were having a heart attack, you'd be PISSED that they didn't send all of that for you.
You're not a business owner are you? In fact, you probably have no clue what it means to run and grow a good business. There are more private ambulance services in this country than there are public... and the private have a much better track record for response time and care given... so do some research before you make claims that are not supported by the facts. Private EMS providers outperform government in many categories. For example, 70 percent of private agencies have defibrillation devices (used for heart attacks), compared to only 48 percent of city fire-rescue agencies and rescue workers. More private agencies (48 percent) are using advanced technology, such as the automotive vehicle locator, than city fire-rescue agencies (20 percent). Perhaps most important of all, 66 percent of private, for-profit EMS providers are subject to external reviews by their governing municipalities while bureaucracies just cannot audit themselves with any honesty. Private EMS firms also can provide services less expensively than fire departments. For instance, privately employed paramedics (who make up 34.5 percent of all paramedics) don't cost as much as government firefighters. Typically, they make about 75 percent of the firefighters wages. And one hook-and-ladder truck used on an EMS run costs more than six ambulances.
In addition, contracts between municipalities and private EMS providers are moving to a performance-based model that ties funding, payment and resource allocation to the performance of the providers. Private firms are also are making better use of technology and accessing advanced equipment more quickly than public agencies-and enhanced technology promises to increase efficiency and save lives.

The same can be said about private fire fighting firms... the city pays private companies, and every four years, put the firefighting contract out for bid...
Having firefighters and EMS as public employees insures a worse job performance and a much higher expense.
As for the original topic... we don't need a huge police force... what we need is to stop arresting people for crimes where the only victim is the person supposedly committing the crime. We need to demand our State Lawmakers decriminalize all drugs. We need to demand our lawmakers stop enforcing and eliminate all seat belt laws... we need to stop making laws which give police the right to use force against people committing these victimless crimes.
No, I am not a private business owner. I suppose that makes me an idiot in your eyes. Sorry.

A private business owner can just choose to close their doors for the night and let someone die on the street. At least a government-run service, if they practice negligence like that, -CAN- be punished for it. I'm not implying that it's better, or will happen that way, or anything like that. My point is simply that; a private business can refuse service.

Everyone touts the "privatization" flag but when I think about throwing everything to private business owners, I think of the old health care debate.

See, the good old gov't health care (in particular, the VA) takes a year and a half to get an MRI on a combat injury that the Army already diagnosed and treated.

Good old private business owner will do it in a week, but it costs an arm and a leg.

You can get Vicodin for pain... or hydrocodone 5/acetaminophen 500mg. What's the difference? Some private business owns the name "Vicodin" and charges 8 times more for the medication.

I know, I'm a horrible person and a country hating communist for thinking we should have a framework in place to handle emergencies, and acknowledging that human greed is going to stiff the common man. Doesn't matter if they're a bloated government agency or a savvy business owner.

My view is if they're wearing a suit and have a smile on their face they are trying to stiff me.
 

Washintonian_For_Liberty

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killchain wrote:
No, I am not a private business owner. I suppose that makes me an idiot in your eyes. Sorry.
I don't think you're an idiot... I just think you are ignorant of what it takes to run a business or what it means to provide services within the scope of a contract.

killchain wrote:
A private business owner can just choose to close their doors for the night and let someone die on the street. At least a government-run service, if they practice negligence like that, -CAN- be punished for it. I'm not implying that it's better, or will happen that way, or anything like that. My point is simply that; a private business can refuse service.
A private business cannot do something that would be in breach of their contract. Public or private, when a company is under contract to provide a service and they refuse, they can be prosecuted. If their negligence results in the loss of a life... they can and should be prosecuted for manslaughter. Your point is meaningless since there is nothing stopping a public union from going on strike... and they have.

killchain wrote:
Everyone touts the "privatization" flag but when I think about throwing everything to private business owners, I think of the old health care debate.

See, the good old gov't health care (in particular, the VA) takes a year and a half to get an MRI on a combat injury that the Army already diagnosed and treated.

Good old private business owner will do it in a week, but it costs an arm and a leg.
How old are you? You're probably not young enough to remember health care costs being low enough for people to pay for them out of pocket. Before government got so heavily involved in PAYING for medical care... costs were relatively low. A broken leg cost $150 dollars, sutures in the knee cost $35 dollars and so on and so forth. Back when medical clinics were dotting the countryside, the cost of medical care was cheap. But this ended in the 70s and 80s as government became more and more involved with the payment side of medical care. Government was paying, so government was requiring huge amounts of paperwork to qualify someone for government coverage, which required the medical clinics to hire more people just to handle the paperwork. Now, it has gotten so bad, my local clinic has 8 doctors, two RNs, three physician assistants and 6 office staff of which 5 are there specifically to handle government and private insurance paperwork. That's just the people IN the office who handle basic paperwork... the lawyers and CPAs now required to handle all the tax filings for medical clinics cost more than the Doctors that provide the service... and hence... the whole mess drives up the cost of medical care to the point that average folks can no longer afford it.

killchain wrote:
You can get Vicodin for pain... or hydrocodone 5/acetaminophen 500mg. What's the difference? Some private business owns the name "Vicodin" and charges 8 times more for the medication.
Do you really want to know the difference? Its called the FDA and the government.... the cost is a government induced cost... and instead of helping us... the government is hurting us... because if they just got out of the way and allowed drug companies to provide drugs... well, first and foremost, we would not have these giant drug companies, and second, you'd have a selection of 100s of different types of pain killers among which would be marijuana in all its forms. The reason why huge drug companies exist is that they're the only ones that can survive the FDA approval process. They sometimes go a decade or more before they begin to see ANY recoup costs for the drugs they make. Thats not greed causing the huge costs.... thats government interference.


killchain wrote:
I know, I'm a horrible person and a country hating communist for thinking we should have a framework in place to handle emergencies, and acknowledging that human greed is going to stiff the common man. Doesn't matter if they're a bloated government agency or a savvy business owner.

My view is if they're wearing a suit and have a smile on their face they are trying to stiff me.
The only ones you need to fear and loath are the government regulators who stand in your way of cures, medicines and cheap medical care. They're the cause... not the solution. The problem with people like you is that you have no clue how the free market works... you think that somehow, that all business people somehow collude with one another to screw you? But the thing you forget is that when a market is new, things are expensive... and as other businesses see that the market is profitable, they will try and join it to share in the profits... and in order to get the market share away from existing players, they have to beat prices... or quality... or both. The more players you have in a market... the lower costs become. The only time this changes is with monopolies, and the only way monopolies form is with government help through onerous regulations and rules that keep out competition.

At least with the business man, you have a choice... with government... there is only one... and they just get bigger and more expensive every year without fail. You support government run services meaning that you support the end of this nation... because as the weight of government becomes to great... collapse is the only result.
 
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