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Thread: Visiting SF - Not planning on carrying

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran
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    Hey all.

    I'm headed to SF next month. I was wondering if there are any laws regarding OC (pepper) spray that I should be aware of.

    I'm also bringing a pocket knife (Kershaw ken onion) with a 2.75" blade - I don't suspect that's a problem but I thought I'd bring it up.

    I have my Michigan CPL which Cali does not honor, and I don't feel like unloaded OC while I'm there, nor dealing with the Cali airports with my firearm.

    Any advice on the above is appreciated.

    -Zig, Michigan.

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    You can bring your knife pretty much anywhere (K-12 schools may be an exception though). The OC I'm pretty sure is fine as well, but you can't bring it into any state (or federal?) building.

  3. #3
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    CA knife laws vary by locality. For example, Turlock has no restriction on knife length - I could legally carry my katana down main street. However, Modesto (just 15 miles away) restricts all knives to 2" blades, except when being used in or transported to/from work/sports where those are legitimate tools/gear.

    As for state law... you're pretty much clear as long as the knife is not a "switch blade" or "gravity knife." Pretty much, if there's any way to open the blade without touching the blade (or a thumb stud attached directly to the blade), then it's illegal state-wide.

    One note on localities. It has been my experience that localities don't enforce blade length restrictions on the average citizen. However, if you did have to use your blade for self defense, if you commit any other crime, or if the local authorities just don't like you for some reason... you may face a misdemeanor (probably pay a fine and do some community service).

    I can't speak for big city culture, but all the places I've lived/worked in the Central Valley, the cops only use these local laws as a way to "further investigate" or otherwise give gangbangers and other ne'er-do-wells a bad day.

    IMO, as long as your knife stays concealed (and in the closed position), you have nothing to worry about.

    As for OC, there are several restrictions on it being legal. I'd venture a guess many out-of-state sprays don't meet the labeling requirements, so I suggest you read the requirements carefully before bringing any into the state. Or to be safe, buy some when you get here. Here's the relavant code:

    Code:
    12403.7.  Notwithstanding any other law, any person may purchase,
    possess, or use tear gas and tear gas weapons for the projection or
    release of tear gas if the tear gas and tear gas weapons are used
    solely for self-defense purposes, subject to the following
    requirements:
    (a) No person convicted of a felony or any crime involving an
    assault under the laws of the United States, the State of California,
    or any other state, government, or country or convicted of misuse of
    tear gas under subdivision (g) shall purchase, possess, or use tear
    gas or tear gas weapons.
    (b) No person who is addicted to any narcotic drug shall purchase,
    possess, or use tear gas or tear gas weapons.
    (c) No person shall sell or furnish any tear gas or tear gas
    weapon to a minor.
    (d) No person who is a minor shall purchase, possess, or use tear
    gas or tear gas weapons.
    (e) (1) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas
    weapon that expels a projectile, or that expels the tear gas by any
    method other than an aerosol spray, or that contains more than 2.5
    ounces net weight of aerosol spray.
    (2) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
    lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant to this section
    shall have a label that states: "WARNING: The use of this substance
    or device for any purpose other than self-defense is a crime under
    the law. The contents are dangerous--use with care."
    (3) After January 1, 1984, every tear gas container and tear gas
    weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
    to this section shall have a label that discloses the date on which
    the useful life of the tear gas weapon expires.
    (4) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
    lawfully purchased pursuant to this section shall be accompanied at
    the time of purchase by printed instructions for use.
    (f) Effective March 1, 1994, every tear gas container and tear gas
    weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
    to this section shall be accompanied by an insert including
    directions for use, first aid information, safety and storage
    information, and explanation of the legal ramifications of improper
    use of the tear gas container or tear gas product.
    (g) Any person who uses tear gas or tear gas weapons except in
    self-defense is guilty of a public offense and is punishable by
    imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years
    or in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed
    one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment,
    except that, if the use is against a peace officer, as defined in
    Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2,
    engaged in the performance of his or her official duties and the
    person committing the offense knows or reasonably should know that
    the victim is a peace officer, the offense is punishable by
    imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months or two or three years or
    by a fine of one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and
    imprisonment.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  4. #4
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    CA knife laws vary by locality. For example, Turlock has no restriction on knife length - I could legally carry my katana down main street. However, Modesto (just 15 miles away) restricts all knives to 2" blades, except when being used in or transported to/from work/sports where those are legitimate tools/gear.

    As for state law... you're pretty much clear as long as the knife is not a "switch blade" or "gravity knife." Pretty much, if there's any way to open the blade without touching the blade (or a thumb stud attached directly to the blade), then it's illegal state-wide.

    One note on localities. It has been my experience that localities don't enforce blade length restrictions on the average citizen. However, if you did have to use your blade for self defense, if you commit any other crime, or if the local authorities just don't like you for some reason... you may face a misdemeanor (probably pay a fine and do some community service).

    I can't speak for big city culture, but all the places I've lived/worked in the Central Valley, the cops only use these local laws as a way to "further investigate" or otherwise give gangbangers and other ne'er-do-wells a bad day.

    IMO, as long as your knife stays concealed (and in the closed position), you have nothing to worry about.

    As for OC, there are several restrictions on it being legal. I'd venture a guess many out-of-state sprays don't meet the labeling requirements, so I suggest you read the requirements carefully before bringing any into the state. Or to be safe, buy some when you get here. Here's the relavant code:

    Code:
    12403.7.  Notwithstanding any other law, any person may purchase,
    possess, or use tear gas and tear gas weapons for the projection or
    release of tear gas if the tear gas and tear gas weapons are used
    solely for self-defense purposes, subject to the following
    requirements:
    (a) No person convicted of a felony or any crime involving an
    assault under the laws of the United States, the State of California,
    or any other state, government, or country or convicted of misuse of
    tear gas under subdivision (g) shall purchase, possess, or use tear
    gas or tear gas weapons.
    (b) No person who is addicted to any narcotic drug shall purchase,
    possess, or use tear gas or tear gas weapons.
    (c) No person shall sell or furnish any tear gas or tear gas
    weapon to a minor.
    (d) No person who is a minor shall purchase, possess, or use tear
    gas or tear gas weapons.
    (e) (1) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas
    weapon that expels a projectile, or that expels the tear gas by any
    method other than an aerosol spray, or that contains more than 2.5
    ounces net weight of aerosol spray.
    (2) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
    lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant to this section
    shall have a label that states: "WARNING: The use of this substance
    or device for any purpose other than self-defense is a crime under
    the law. The contents are dangerous--use with care."
    (3) After January 1, 1984, every tear gas container and tear gas
    weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
    to this section shall have a label that discloses the date on which
    the useful life of the tear gas weapon expires.
    (4) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
    lawfully purchased pursuant to this section shall be accompanied at
    the time of purchase by printed instructions for use.
    (f) Effective March 1, 1994, every tear gas container and tear gas
    weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
    to this section shall be accompanied by an insert including
    directions for use, first aid information, safety and storage
    information, and explanation of the legal ramifications of improper
    use of the tear gas container or tear gas product.
    (g) Any person who uses tear gas or tear gas weapons except in
    self-defense is guilty of a public offense and is punishable by
    imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years
    or in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed
    one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment,
    except that, if the use is against a peace officer, as defined in
    Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2,
    engaged in the performance of his or her official duties and the
    person committing the offense knows or reasonably should know that
    the victim is a peace officer, the offense is punishable by
    imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months or two or three years or
    by a fine of one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and
    imprisonment.
    Thanks for the info, man.

    My OC spray currently has no labeling whatsoever (except an expiration on the bottom). I'm wondering, if I label it myself, would that satisfy the statute?

    No big deal, as OC spray costs less than $10, but I don't really want to go hunting for some when I arrive just for this trip.

  5. #5
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    zigziggityzoo,

    Here is an interesting article about gun possession in SF:http://sfpublicdefender.org/media/20...nt-gun-charge/

    While travelling, don't give PC or RAS for a detainment,and don't submit to a search if no PC or RAS exist, and you will be OK. In other words, be a law-abiding citizen. Act the act, walk the talk.

    Last month, my wife and I spent time in SF. We went to a Giants game and visited the town. Fiona was our travel partner. We used a lockable make-up bag to transport our friend. (Fiona did not walk the streets and did not see the game)

    I have transported handguns through the lower peninsula and the UP before even though it is illegal by Michigan law. Michigan was not our destination; therefore, we should have been OK.

    I have transported handguns and hunting rifles on the airlines. It is easy and painless.

    If you change your mind about bringing a handgun, have literature for a gun range in the area. If you have proof that you need your gun for shooting at a range or for hunting, you will be OK. Most laws have a caveat that requires a need for transporting your gun, besides self defense.

    Don't bring high capacity mags to the PRK.

    More info: http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=59

    http://www.nraila.org/images/DOJltrTSA.pdf

    markm




  6. #6
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    CA knife laws vary by locality. For example, Turlock has no restriction on knife length - I could legally carry my katana down main street. However, Modesto (just 15 miles away) restricts all knives to 2" blades, except when being used in or transported to/from work/sports where those are legitimate tools/gear.

    As for state law... you're pretty much clear as long as the knife is not a "switch blade" or "gravity knife." Pretty much, if there's any way to open the blade without touching the blade (or a thumb stud attached directly to the blade), then it's illegal state-wide.

    One note on localities. It has been my experience that localities don't enforce blade length restrictions on the average citizen. However, if you did have to use your blade for self defense, if you commit any other crime, or if the local authorities just don't like you for some reason... you may face a misdemeanor (probably pay a fine and do some community service).

    I can't speak for big city culture, but all the places I've lived/worked in the Central Valley, the cops only use these local laws as a way to "further investigate" or otherwise give gangbangers and other ne'er-do-wells a bad day.

    IMO, as long as your knife stays concealed (and in the closed position), you have nothing to worry about.

    As for OC, there are several restrictions on it being legal. I'd venture a guess many out-of-state sprays don't meet the labeling requirements, so I suggest you read the requirements carefully before bringing any into the state. Or to be safe, buy some when you get here. Here's the relavant code:

    Code:
    12403.7. Notwithstanding any other law, any person may purchase,
    possess, or use tear gas and tear gas weapons for the projection or
    release of tear gas if the tear gas and tear gas weapons are used
    solely for self-defense purposes, subject to the following
    requirements:
    (a) No person convicted of a felony or any crime involving an
    assault under the laws of the United States, the State of California,
    or any other state, government, or country or convicted of misuse of
    tear gas under subdivision (g) shall purchase, possess, or use tear
    gas or tear gas weapons.
    (b) No person who is addicted to any narcotic drug shall purchase,
    possess, or use tear gas or tear gas weapons.
    (c) No person shall sell or furnish any tear gas or tear gas
    weapon to a minor.
    (d) No person who is a minor shall purchase, possess, or use tear
    gas or tear gas weapons.
    (e) (1) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas
    weapon that expels a projectile, or that expels the tear gas by any
    method other than an aerosol spray, or that contains more than 2.5
    ounces net weight of aerosol spray.
    (2) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
    lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant to this section
    shall have a label that states: "WARNING: The use of this substance
    or device for any purpose other than self-defense is a crime under
    the law. The contents are dangerous--use with care."
    (3) After January 1, 1984, every tear gas container and tear gas
    weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
    to this section shall have a label that discloses the date on which
    the useful life of the tear gas weapon expires.
    (4) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
    lawfully purchased pursuant to this section shall be accompanied at
    the time of purchase by printed instructions for use.
    (f) Effective March 1, 1994, every tear gas container and tear gas
    weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
    to this section shall be accompanied by an insert including
    directions for use, first aid information, safety and storage
    information, and explanation of the legal ramifications of improper
    use of the tear gas container or tear gas product.
    (g) Any person who uses tear gas or tear gas weapons except in
    self-defense is guilty of a public offense and is punishable by
    imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years
    or in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed
    one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment,
    except that, if the use is against a peace officer, as defined in
    Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2,
    engaged in the performance of his or her official duties and the
    person committing the offense knows or reasonably should know that
    the victim is a peace officer, the offense is punishable by
    imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months or two or three years or
    by a fine of one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and
    imprisonment.
    If I am not mistaken, Modesto limits knives to under 3" per their ordinances.



    4-2.03.1 - Dangerous Weapons.


    (a) Definition. As used in this section "dangerous weapon" shall mean and include, but is not limited to:

    (1) Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length, or any snap-blade or spring-blade knife regardless of the length of the blade;

    (2) Any ice pick or similar sharp stabbing tool;

    (3) Any straight-edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle;

    (4) Any cutting, stabbing or bludgeoning weapon or device capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm; or

    (5) Any dirk or dagger or bludgeon.

    (b) Carrying Dangerous Weapon. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon his person or to have in his possession or under his control any dangerous weapon; provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section, if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his possession or control for use in his lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation; and provided, further, that the provisions of this section shall not apply to the commission of any act which is made a public offense by any law of this State.

    (c) Disorderly Conduct. It shall be unlawful for any person who has upon his person or in his possession or control any dangerous weapon to engage in any fight or participate in any rough or disorderly conduct upon any public place or way or upon the premises of another.

  7. #7
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    Dec...



    If you read the exception to the law, you will find that it is legal to carry a larger knife if it for DEFENCE.

    "... provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section, if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his possession or control for use in his lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation..."

  8. #8
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    Iopencarry wrote:
    Dec...



    If you read the exception to the law, you will find that it is legal to carry a larger knife if it for DEFENCE.

    "... provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section, if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his possession or control for use in his lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation..."
    Hey Iopencarry,

    After reading what you posted, it seems as thought the intent of the ordinance was to create enhancements for other crimes. Does my thought seem reasonable?

    markm

  9. #9
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    Mark, that IS the intent of the law, and it has always been. Most cities/state laws like this will not mean much in and of itself, if you are NOT charged with another crime.

    as in example,



    you must be allowed to walk from the store, that you just bought an ice pick from, to your car, or walk home if you want to.If your intent was to use the ice pick when you got home, AS an ice pick, no crime would have been committed.

    If you are walking down the street, and have just committed a mugging. It doesnt mater if you did not use the ice pick, you still would be charged with a DW. and aremed robbery.





  10. #10
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    Hey Iopencarry,

    As with most gun laws, it seems that the state has "filled" this category of lawmaking, and it further seems thatstate laws would prevail in court. I have forgotten what this theory is called, but the legislature has many Penal Code sections on knives. It seems redundant for a municipality, that serves at the behest of the legislature, and is only a "local politicalsubdivision of the legislature," could create ordinances that supersede the legislature's intent.

    What do you think?

    markm

  11. #11
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  12. #12
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    Mark, I believe that the city, county gov't laws can not surpercide that of State and then Fed laws. but I do not have the time to find it anywhere.

    just like the state can not suspercide the Fed laws.(but they do all the time).



  13. #13
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    Decoligny wrote:
    If I am not mistaken, Modesto limits knives to under 3" per their ordinances.



    4-2.03.1 - Dangerous Weapons.


    (a) Definition. As used in this section "dangerous weapon" shall mean and include, but is not limited to:

    (1) Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length, or any snap-blade or spring-blade knife regardless of the length of the blade;

    (2) Any ice pick or similar sharp stabbing tool;

    (3) Any straight-edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle;

    (4) Any cutting, stabbing or bludgeoning weapon or device capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm; or

    (5) Any dirk or dagger or bludgeon.

    (b) Carrying Dangerous Weapon. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon his person or to have in his possession or under his control any dangerous weapon; provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section, if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his possession or control for use in his lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation; and provided, further, that the provisions of this section shall not apply to the commission of any act which is made a public offense by any law of this State.

    (c) Disorderly Conduct. It shall be unlawful for any person who has upon his person or in his possession or control any dangerous weapon to engage in any fight or participate in any rough or disorderly conduct upon any public place or way or upon the premises of another.
    I stand corrected. Thanks for citing the muni code for me; I got lazy on that one.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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  14. #14
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    Thanks for all the info guys.

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Iopencarry wrote:
    If you read the exception to the law, you will find that it is legal to carry a larger knife if it for DEFENCE.

    "... provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section, if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his possession or control for use in his lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation..."
    The word "defense" is used in your quote to mean a legal defense, not for defense from a physical attack. If you're cleaning a fish lets say, you're participating in lawful recreation, so you'd be fine having a knife which exceeds three inches.

    However, if you're carrying a knife solely for the purpose of protection, and not to be used in your job or recreation, then you would be violating the statute.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    It doesn't say that the recreation must be of a sort where knives are routinely used.

    I would argue that any recreation is a valid defense, so long as the person planned to use the knife during that recreation.

    I fail to see how, if I elected to use a 4" knife to open a box of candy at a movie theater, I wouldn't qualify for the exemption, so long as I possessed it for use during my recreation. It doesn't require that knives be commonly used in recreating at a movie theater.

  17. #17
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    I think it would be interpreted by the judge/jury that "in good faith" means that a "reasonable" person would believe you were carrying the knife for recreational or occupational purposes.

    Not saying that's what the authors of the ordinance meant, but that's probably how it would go down in court.
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