Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Anyone familiar with this

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cedar City, Utah, USA
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).

    76-3-203.2. Definitions -- Use of dangerous weapon in offenses committed on or about school premises -- Enhanced penalties.
    (1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
    (i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
    (ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
    (iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
    (iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
    (v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).

    Thats one fifth of a mile or three and a third football fields. In my city, which is Cedar City, the schools are located about that distance from one another if not closer through out the city. This is probably the case in most cities. So does this mean I cannot Open Carry anywhere in the city. I find that this part of the law infringes on my right to Open Carry and was wondering if anyone new of any attorneys for our cause that would help to bring this law to the courts to have it modified. I happen to live across the street from a school and I cannot take my dogs for a walk with my weapon as I will be in violation of this law the minute I step off my property. The law should be limited to the school property only, as the streets and sidewalks are public.Or at least maybe the distance should be25 feet so one can stay on the other side of the street from the school.

  2. #2
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    Most here are very aware of this.

    This is the biggest hurdle for permitless carry in Utah.

    However if you have a permit, no need to worry, as you are exempt from this law.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #3
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    As Kevin notes, most here are well aware of this requirement. Also notice the nasty little thing about any area being used for a school activity plus 1000' from such an area. So on any given day the capital building, a hotel (ballroom), a city park, a fire station, or museum could all be a temporary gun free school zone with the 1000' range extending out from them.

    And of course, every (licensed?) day care and preschool in the State is considered a school with the same 1000' range. Ditto EVERY post secondary school including vocational and professional schools.

    This 1000' law is rarely if ever enforced. And I'd expect that other than K-12 and colleges with traditional campuses, most of the other "schools" are not likely to try to enforce criminal penalties for innocent violations even on their actual grounds, much less 1000' out. How many beauty salons in strip malls are actually vocational schools? Where are all the real estate schools located? And good luck trying to get a definitive list of all the day cares and pre schools in your area.

    A permit to carry exempts you from all these restrictions. So you really should get one if you are going to carry much.

    We are also working to try to correct these problems by properly re-defining school zones to a much more rational and workable definition. The next session is in February and changes to laws tend to take effect about May 1.

    Who is your State Rep and State Senator these days? Please contact them and let them know you are concerned about this issue so that they will be prepped and primed to sponsor and support a bill or two to help correct it.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  4. #4
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ogden, Utah, USA
    Posts
    276

    Post imported post

    Very aware of it, I had to worry about it everyday until I got my permit. Off the the top of my head I believe only 1 person has been charged, and I think I remember he was actually inside the school and he attempted to fight it. I may be completely wrong and mixing stories. Anyway your permit is the only way around that one.

  5. #5
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Yuma, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    923

    Post imported post

    utbagpiper wrote:
    We are also working to try to correct these problems by properly re-defining school zones to a much more rational and workable definition. The next session is in February and changes to laws tend to take effect about May 1.
    What would be a more rational and workable definition? The only one that I see as even close would be public schools proper. Any "zone" simply makes no sense.

  6. #6
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    I vote for "IF YOU ARE A LEGAL ADULT (18 YEARS OR MORE) AND A LAWFUL POSSESSOR OF A FIREARM YOU MAY CARRY / POSSESS A FIREARM OR FIREARMS IN ANY PUBLIC SCHOOL OR COLLEGE!"
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  7. #7
    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Greater Salt Lake City Metro area far south suburb of Provo in UTAH
    Posts
    349

    Post imported post

    utbagpiper wrote:
    As Kevin notes, most here are well aware of this requirement. Also notice the nasty little thing about any area being used for a school activity plus 1000' from such an area. So on any given day the capital building, a hotel (ballroom), a city park, a fire station, or museum could all be a temporary gun free school zone with the 1000' range extending out from them.

    And of course, every (licensed?) day care and preschool in the State is considered a school with the same 1000' range. Ditto EVERY post secondary school including vocational and professional schools.

    This 1000' law is rarely if ever enforced. And I'd expect that other than K-12 and colleges with traditional campuses, most of the other "schools" are not likely to try to enforce criminal penalties for innocent violations even on their actual grounds, much less 1000' out. How many beauty salons in strip malls are actually vocational schools? Where are all the real estate schools located? And good luck trying to get a definitive list of all the day cares and pre schools in your area.

    A permit to carry exempts you from all these restrictions. So you really should get one if you are going to carry much.

    We are also working to try to correct these problems by properly re-defining school zones to a much more rational and workable definition. The next session is in February and changes to laws tend to take effect about May 1.

    Who is your State Rep and State Senator these days? Please contact them and let them know you are concerned about this issue so that they will be prepped and primed to sponsor and support a bill or two to help correct it.

    Charles
    Is the GFSZrestriction a Utah state law or Federal?
    (Dion Wood). MY FREEDOM PAGE[/COLOR] with valuable links to ALTERNATIVE MEDIA, Internet Radio shows and other sites to restore our FREEDOM & LIBERTYhttp://www.QRZ.com/db/KB9QFH TELEPHONE: +1(800)808-KIWI that's +1(800)808-5494 Tollfree. "NewZealander By Birth, American By The Grace Of God." See also http://www.facebook.com/NewZealandAmerican & http://RTR.org/NewZealandAmerican IN MEMORY OF OUR GOD, OUR RELIGION, AND FREEDOM, AND OUR PEACE, OUR WIVES, AND OUR CHILDREN" (The Title Of LIBERTY)

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Provo, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,076

    Post imported post

    NewZealandAmerican wrote
    Is the GFSZrestriction a Utah state law or Federal?
    There are both Utah and federal versions. the federal version only covers K-12 and no one has been prosecuted under it since it was declared unconstitutional and a congress added an interstate commerce clause to it to try and get around the court.



  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    rpyne wrote:
    NewZealandAmerican wrote
    Is the GFSZrestriction a Utah state law or Federal?
    There are both Utah and federal versions. the federal version only covers K-12 and no one has been prosecuted under it since it was declared unconstitutional and a congress added an interstate commerce clause to it to try and get around the court.
    There have been prosecutions, just no convictions.

    Read here... http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...p=95661#p95650
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276

    Post imported post

    Kevin Jensen wrote:
    There have been prosecutions, just no convictions.

    Read here... http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...p=95661#p95650
    True but this guy was also charged with felon in possession of a firearm also so looks like it was an addon charge and not the charge itself.


    http://openjurist.org/202/f3d/1320/united-states-v-tait
    A federal grand jury returned a two-count indictment against Wiley Block Tait in January, 1999. The indictments arose from a 1997 incident wherein Tait possessed a pistol. Count One charged Tait with being a felon in possession of a firearm in violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1). Count Two charged Tait with possessing a firearm in a gun-free school zone in violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)(A).

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    75

    Post imported post

    ccwinstructor wrote:
    What would be a more rational and workable definition? The only one that I see as even close would be public schools proper. Any "zone" simply makes no sense.
    I like Arizona's law:
    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly: ...
    12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds; ...
    3. "School" means a public or nonpublic kindergarten program, common school or high school.
    4. "School grounds" means in, or on the grounds of, a school.

  12. #12
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Yuma, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    923

    Post imported post

    I am from Arizona, and I don't like our law. Guns should not be restricted from schools any more than they are restricted from parks or theaters. The entire reason for the effort to restrict guns from schools is to indoctrinate children with the idea that guns are unacceptable in society, to delegitimize guns.

    It used to be perfectly legal for people who could legally possess guns to bring them to a school, and there were less problems with guns than there are now.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    771

    Post imported post

    ccwinstructor wrote:
    utbagpiper wrote:
    We are also working to try to correct these problems by properly re-defining school zones to a much more rational and workable definition. The next session is in February and changes to laws tend to take effect about May 1.
    What would be a more rational and workable definition? The only one that I see as even close would be public schools proper. Any "zone" simply makes no sense.
    VA is worded pretty well:


    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited. A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence. The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

    States dont have rights. People do.

  14. #14
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    mrjam2jab wrote:
    ccwinstructor wrote:
    utbagpiper wrote:
    We are also working to try to correct these problems by properly re-defining school zones to a much more rational and workable definition. The next session is in February and changes to laws tend to take effect about May 1.
    What would be a more rational and workable definition? The only one that I see as even close would be public schools proper. Any "zone" simply makes no sense.
    VA is worded pretty well:


    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited. A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence. The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

    Except current Utah law does not require concealment, it does allow concealment via the permit.

    I would prefer for Utah andFederalto eliminate the GFSZ 1000 foot restriction and tighten Utah's definition of "school" to only Public Schools NOT COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES, TRADE SCHOOLS, Ect.



    Editted to add:

    Actually, Eliminate entirely ANY Federal or State GFSZ of any sort and add a penalty enhancement for the use of any weapon on the grounds of any public school in the commission of a crime (excluding traffic offences). And by "use" I mean not just possession of a weapon but the weapon must be acctually used in the commission of the crime!

    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •