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Thread: When to engage?

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    I have been reading post after post on this site and the information i have gleaned has helped broaden my understanding and awareness of just how important carrying is. One main thing that has yet to be really settled in my mind though is when one should engage in a situation to protect someone other than yourself, whether that be family, friend, or stranger.

    There are an impossible amount of scenarios one could consider and what if's to examine, but for the sake of everyone reading, I ask that we try to not get too detailed where a simple example is ample.

    Thank you all for your input in advance.

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    The standard I would apply is "immediate threat to life or limb." If there is such a threat, I hope I would intervene. If not, but the possibility existed of such a threat arising, I'd stand by and, depending upon the situation, call 911.

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    That is a good rule of thumb but may i ask how and to who you feel free to apply it to help? I'm sure that if someone is helpless and in danger they would not mind at all your help, but when in the eyes of the law do your actions cross the line into vigilante?

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    Well, if a woman is getting stabbed I'm sure you wouldn't be seen as a vigilante for intervening.





    -Gruu

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    TehGruu wrote:
    Well, if a woman is getting stabbed I'm sure you wouldn't be seen as a vigilante for intervening.





    -Gruu
    Oh, I don't kow about that.

    I've had several anti-gunners tell me, in online discussions, that they don't want no cowboy with a gun to come to their rescue. But then I tell them, "OK, I won't. I'll just shootyour attacker as a pre-emptive action on behalf of the assailants next victem. You'll just be the bait."

    In most states we would be justified to use force/lethal force to stop a threat of imminent serous bodily injury or death against self or another.

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    The four elements of common law self-defense are; be innocent of instigation, be in reasonable fear of bodily harm, use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil, and attempt to withdraw.

    Most American law is derived from common law so the details of defense of another are in the self-defense law of your jurisdiction or in its case law.

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    galbrecht71 wrote:
    That is a good rule of thumb but may i ask how and to who you feel free to apply it to help? I'm sure that if someone is helpless and in danger they would not mind at all your help, but when in the eyes of the law do your actions cross the line into vigilante?
    If there is a threat to life or limb, I would be willing to use my handgun. This is an OC forum, so I assumed you were asking about using an OCed handgun.

    As far as being a "vigilante" goes, I don't know of a single State in the union in which the standard I use wouldn't fall within the realm of justification for my actions. I also do not know of a single State in which vigilantism is a crime. The underlying action may be a crime, but protecting life and limb is justification that makes it not a crime.

    "Vigilante" is a hot-button word that, when used in reference to defense situations, is often being used to demonize the defender. I would appreciate you not using it when discussing my answer to your question. Thank you.

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    eye95 wrote:
    galbrecht71 wrote:
    That is a good rule of thumb but may i ask how and to who you feel free to apply it to help? I'm sure that if someone is helpless and in danger they would not mind at all your help, but when in the eyes of the law do your actions cross the line into vigilante?
    If there is a threat to life or limb, I would be willing to use my handgun. This is an OC forum, so I assumed you were asking about using an OCed handgun.

    As far as being a "vigilante" goes, I don't know of a single State in the union in which the standard I use wouldn't fall within the realm of justification for my actions. I also do not know of a single State in which vigilantism is a crime. The underlying action may be a crime, but protecting life and limb is justification that makes it not a crime.

    "Vigilante" is a hot-button word that, when used in reference to defense situations, is often being used to demonize the defender. I would appreciate you not using it when discussing my answer to your question. Thank you.
    Eye, If you look at my reply i never accused your rule of being that of a "Vigilante", but was simply using that word to describe how anti's might try to manipulate and demonize the act of protection. You never gave a specific event for me to have accused you of wrong doing and personally I agree with what you said. I apologise if my reply offended you anyhow.



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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    The four elements of common law self-defense are; be innocent of instigation, be in reasonable fear of bodily harm, use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil, and attempt to withdraw.

    Most American law is derived from common law so the details of defense of another are in the self-defense law of your jurisdiction or in its case law.
    It has become cliche that dead men tell no tails and in the same lot cannot sue someone for defending against their actions. I have heard stories elsewhere (nothing i can link to, word of mouth only) of people trying to bring charges on homeowners for wounds received during criminal actions even though they amount to nothing in the end. Have you heard anything to this same effect and if so does that justify lethal force when only sufficient force may be needed?

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    That is an issue so complicated that I can't say for certain even what I would do until it happens. If two parties are fighting, with hands, knives or guns and you decide which one is the BG, what if he turned out to be LE? I feel that there are situations that I would come to the aid of someone about to be killed, but where is the line that says shoot?

    I hope it never happens to me. I know I wouldn't stand by and let someone die; I just pray that my decision will be the right one.

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    When to engage ? When the time is right, when you really love the girl...
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    When to engage?



    When 500 SEIU protesters on your front lawn put you in fear for your life. Surely, facing an angry mob 1:500 allows use of deadly force?



    eta: Just not in the communist state of Maryland

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    riverrat10k wrote:
    When to engage?



    When 500 SEIU protesters on your front lawn put you in fear for your life. Surely, facing an angry mob 1:500 allows use of deadly force?



    eta: Just not in the communist state of Maryland
    and the police ESCORTED the protesters to the home too. once they stepped foot on the guys lawn they were trespassing , but the POLICE let it all happen, scaring the crap out of the guys kid who was home alone.

    YUP, I would issue ONE warning to get off my lawn, then I would call the POLICE , I would wait 5 minutes for the police to get them off my lawn, then OPEN FIRE, empty a 30 into the crowd.......I was in fear for my life, I thought they were going to kill me, since the police was UNABLE to stop them, it was a mob your honor......I had no place to retreat to as they had surrounded my home.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    galbrecht71 wrote:
    I have been reading post after post on this site and the information i have gleaned has helped broaden my understanding and awareness of just how important carrying is. One main thing that has yet to be really settled in my mind though is when one should engage in a situation to protect someone other than yourself, whether that be family, friend, or stranger.

    There are an impossible amount of scenarios one could consider and what if's to examine, but for the sake of everyone reading, I ask that we try to not get too detailed where a simple example is ample.

    Thank you all for your input in advance.*
    This is a case of "worms, 1ea, 10 lb can." Some states have a "render aid law", that requires you, if you have the ability to come to the aid of others who are in danger. This could be used to charge you if you have the means to use appropriate force to stop someone else's attacker. though the penalty would probably be slight if you don't .

    The rule I would go by is this. I should apply what ever force the one who is under attack could use to defend themselves. Being trained by the military in hand to hand combative techniques. This could be limited to simply take down and restraint.

    The problem is, if I have a gun I'm not going to get into a wresting match with someone who may or may not have the ability to escalate to using lethal force.

    If I happen across a 110 lb woman being assaulted by a 250 lb assailant, That size disparity represents potentially a grave threat to her and I "should" be authorized to apply deadly force on her behalf.

    In cases such as this, you should understand that if you shoot someone else's attacker, the police will most likely arrest and charge you with a crime. It will be up to the prosecutor and the Justice system to decide if you acted appropriately. That being said, Hire a lawyer, refuse to answer questions by the police or the DA. Let you legal council speak on your behalf to assure that you don't eff things up for yourself.
    Nevada Campus Carry: The Movement Continues
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    Nevada carrier wrote:
    galbrecht71 wrote:
    I have been reading post after post on this site and the information i have gleaned has helped broaden my understanding and awareness of just how important carrying is. One main thing that has yet to be really settled in my mind though is when one should engage in a situation to protect someone other than yourself, whether that be family, friend, or stranger.

    There are an impossible amount of scenarios one could consider and what if's to examine, but for the sake of everyone reading, I ask that we try to not get too detailed where a simple example is ample.

    Thank you all for your input in advance.
    This is a case of "worms, 1ea, 10 lb can." Some states have a "render aid law", that requires you, if you have the ability to come to the aid of others who are in danger. This could be used to charge you if you have the means to use appropriate force to stop someone else's attacker. though the penalty would probably be slight if you don't .
    Good advice, is there somewhere i could look up to see if my state has such a law? I am more ignorant of the laws than i am proud to admit but i'm trying to learn more about them and who they apply.

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    I wasn't able to find any 'render aid' or 'duty to rescue' laws, but my Google-Fu might be weak tonight.

    I did find a funny lawsuit where a widow claimed that the City should have rescued her late husband from a trash compactor that he hid in to evade arrest. I LOL'd.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Glock34 wrote:
    When to engage ? When the time is right, when you really love the girl...
    Ahh..., you read my mind!

    Technically, when the situation matches that required by your state's laws for the use of deadly force. In the situation you mentioned, under Colorado law, I'd definately close and lock all windows and doors and call 911 right away, but would open fire only if someone either breached the perimeter or took any action to set my house on fire (arson of an occupied building is considered use of deadly force, and attempted murder).
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Glock34 wrote:
    riverrat10k wrote:
    When to engage?



    When 500 SEIU protesters on your front lawn put you in fear for your life. Surely, facing an angry mob 1:500 allows use of deadly force?



    eta: Just not in the communist state of Maryland
    and the police ESCORTED the protesters to the home too. once they stepped foot on the guys lawn they were trespassing , but the POLICE let it all happen, scaring the crap out of the guys kid who was home alone.

    YUP, I would issue ONE warning to get off my lawn, then I would call the POLICE , I would wait 5 minutes for the police to get them off my lawn, then OPEN FIRE, empty a 30 into the crowd.......I was in fear for my life, I thought they were going to kill me, since the police was UNABLE to stop them, it was a mob your honor......I had no place to retreat to as they had surrounded my home.
    Actually, as I understand, he did call the police who told him that the mob was toobig for them to handle ... and that he was on his own. So, he left his 8 yo locked in the car around the corner from the house, walked to the house and retrieved his 14 yo and fled ... again, according to SCOTUS, the police do not have a duty to protect us.
    cheers - okboomer
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    okboomer wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    riverrat10k wrote:
    When to engage?



    When 500 SEIU protesters on your front lawn put you in fear for your life. Surely, facing an angry mob 1:500 allows use of deadly force?



    eta: Just not in the communist state of Maryland
    and the police ESCORTED the protesters to the home too. once they stepped foot on the guys lawn they were trespassing , but the POLICE let it all happen, scaring the crap out of the guys kid who was home alone.

    YUP, I would issue ONE warning to get off my lawn, then I would call the POLICE , I would wait 5 minutes for the police to get them off my lawn, then OPEN FIRE, empty a 30 into the crowd.......I was in fear for my life, I thought they were going to kill me, since the police was UNABLE to stop them, it was a mob your honor......I had no place to retreat to as they had surrounded my home.
    Actually, as I understand, he did call the police who told him that the mob was toobig for them to handle ... and that he was on his own. So, he left his 8 yo locked in the car around the corner from the house, walked to the house and retrieved his 14 yo and fled ... again, according to SCOTUS, the police do not have a duty to protect us.
    Perfect example of why we should stop fundingthose expanding bureacracies.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    galbrecht71 wrote:
    I have been reading post after post on this site and the information i have gleaned has helped broaden my understanding and awareness of just how important carrying is. One main thing that has yet to be really settled in my mind though is when one should engage in a situation to protect someone other than yourself, whether that be family, friend, or stranger.

    There are an impossible amount of scenarios one could consider and what if's to examine, but for the sake of everyone reading, I ask that we try to not get too detailed where a simple example is ample.

    Thank you all for your input in advance.
    It would pay to know the laws of your state. Alabama has pretty liberal stand your ground type laws, that very clearly state that lethal force can be used to protect a third party, and in which circumstances.

    http://www.legislature.state.al.us/C...5/13A-3-23.htm

    My wife asks me these kinds of questions all the time, and my general rule of thumb is to evaluate the following:

    -Is it something, that if it were happening to me would cause me shoot; pretty straight forward

    -Is there time and opportunity to notify LE and let them do their job; e.g. I see someone breaking into a neighbors house, knowing the neighbors are not home and no immdiate threat to life exists; Probably better a call to LE, than me charging over there to play hero

    -Is my involvement likely to escalate the situation from bad to leathal; e.g. in a robbery at a store, if it looks like the BG will take what he wants and leave, it may be better to let it happen, be a good witness for the cops, and let the stores insurance cover the losses vs. if it looks like the guy is unstable and likely to shoot someone regardless ofcompliance then he may need to be put down

    All of those are open to alot of interpretation, and ultimately require a split second judgement call, but that comes with the decision to carry in the first place.



    As far as comments about vigilantism. Know your local laws, and make sure you are working on the assumption of immediate threat, and you should be fine. IMO a vigilante goes out looking for crime, trying to play hero. A good citizen is someone who happens to be prepared, all the time, and when presented with an immediate threat, is able to take appropriate action.

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    galbrecht71 wrote:
    One main thing that has yet to be really settled in my mind though is when one should engage in a situation to protect someone other than yourself, whether that be family, friend, or stranger.
    The two biggest challenges in engaging on behalf of another seem to be:

    1-KNOWING for sure who is the victim and who is the criminal; and,

    2-Mitigating physical risks to yourself whether from the attacker, an accomplice, or the responding police.

    We've all heard the stories of some guy "assaulting" a woman only to learn a few moments later he was an under-cover cop and she was some violent felon. We've considered the scenarios of rendering aid to a convenience store clerk only to find out the hard way he had an unseen accomplice behind us.

    Bearing this in mind, I will intervene sooner on behalf of a family member than I will on behalf of a stranger. I KNOW who the victim is if someone assaults my wife or child. And I'm willing to accept any physical risk to protect them.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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