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Arrest and Dismissal of Disorderly Conduct Charges for Open Carry

JohnGalt

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Rich B wrote:
Done. I strongly doubt they will even consider the case because there is a firearm involved, but I will give them the chance. They certainly should be involved with this.

I think that you are a little better than 50-50 because they do like section 1983 (civil rights) cases, especially those that affect large groups of people. Also, since the economy sucks right now, they have many lawyers on staff waiting to pick up cases who would otherwise be employed at law firms. If they decline your request, we can always look at other options.

Again, please let us know what happens with your inquiry but if you do form an attorney/client relationship with them, I advise you not to post here anything that you discuss with them. If you do, you run the risk of losing the protection of the attorney-client privilege that shields your communications with your lawyer.
 

MGoduto

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dadpharm wrote:
Just asking for trouble and it does nothing to build trust so that we can open carry without people being afraid. I open carry when I visit my daughter in Indiana and have been asked only one time to conceal as some elderly folks were upset. Went to the car and concealed the weapon. Not a big deal and no confrontation.Could have saved yourself, the police an d the owner a lot of trouble just for pride and stuborness

I can only speak for myself, but frankly I don't give a rat's ass if, in the act of going about my daily business in a polite and peaceable manner, someone is 'afraid' when I'm OC'ing.

I can't control the emotions of other people. I CAN be polite and respectful to others and if someone wants to ask why I'm OC'ing I'm glad to be able to spend time explaining and pointing them towards resources that explain state law.

True story: I was OC'ing one night and went to PF Chang in Westfarms mall to pick up takeout food. As I left the restaurant I noticed a couple of black chicks walking a parallel course, out of the mall and going in the same direction as I was on my waybackto my car. One was pushing a little kid in a stroller; the other was sniffing at her left wrist and talking about some perfume sample that she had gotten in the mall. I was walking strong-side to them, so my SIG P239 was visible and enjoying the evening air. Suddenly I have this wrist under my nose, and the woman is asking me what I thought of the scent. It was a pleasant scent, subtle and not overpowering. Neither her nor her friend (and the little kid) seemed concerned about theloaded gun within inches of them.

Themoral to this story: even when I'm OC'ing, I guess that I'm not thatscary. Maybe I need to try harder??
 

ESCH

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What bothers me about this incident is that 20 people were in the establishment when you were placed in the police car in cuffs. Loud mouth, I am sure, was telling them all what you did was illegal and seeing you placed in the car will make them all believe him.

They saw a man OC'ing and get arrested and carted away. 20 people were miseducated that night. Next time they see someone OC'ing they will remember this incident and perpetuate the ignorance. It is so frustrating.
 

JoeSparky

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dadpharm wrote:
Just asking for trouble and it does nothing to build trust so that we can open carry without people being afraid. I open carry when I visit my daughter in Indiana and have been asked only one time to conceal as some elderly folks were upset. Went to the car and concealed the weapon. Not a big deal and no confrontation.Could have saved yourself, the police an d the owner a lot of trouble just for pride and stuborness
And Rosa Parks could have just gone to the back of the bus TOO!
 

jayspapa

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dadpharm ,

Please exsplain something to me. A man is openly carrying his handgun on his hip. Another person ( owner , manager , etc...) , tells open carrier that he is scareing people and should cover the firearm.

Now , per your advice , he covers the gun and everyone is happy . My question to you is this... How can this be ?? Nothing has changed about the gun being there and the people knowing it is there. The gun didn't vanish . It is still right there on his hip.

So these people that were so scared of the gun because they see it , know it is still there but covered now . ???? How has anything changed??????? :banghead::banghead:

Just a little bit of common sense goes a very long way here.
 

Rich B

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MGoduto wrote:
The moral to this story: even when I'm OC'ing, I guess that I'm not that scary. Maybe I need to try harder ??

This was my experience up until 5/16/2010 as well. Most people never even notice, those that do are friendly and polite.

Interestingly a lot of little old ladies and woman business owners are the ones who see it and ask about it. I promptly give them information and do my best to answer their questions. They are always very interested in the whole thing, and I have not had one call the police or ask me to leave.

Not sure why I bring up the demographic or what significance it has, but it is something I have noticed. It was also something I was laughing about last night when it occurred to me the nice old lady who talked to me all about it and the nice business owner at Ben and Jerrys in Branford who wanted to know all about it. They were obviously not scared or 'threatened' at all. But big burly Bail Enforcement Agent with a permit for 24 years claims (in an untruthful statement) that he felt threatened.

Go figure.
 

JohnGalt

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erick212 wrote:
I will be in Wallingford most of this weekend@ my car shopand I will be oc 'ing I want to see what happens....
Do you mean that you will be at your place of business that you own?
 

erick212

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GunTotingLawyer wrote:
erick212 wrote:
I will be in Wallingford most of this weekend@ my car shopand I will be oc 'ing I want to see what happens....
Do you mean that you will be at your place of business that you own?
No, I rent a shop in Wallingford that I build my own race cars. It is not a biz just a place I have to work on personal stuff..
 

Rich B

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Feel free to walk around open carrying in Wallingford. I still do. Mr. Vanaham did us the favor of forcing the Wallingford Police to admit that open carry was perfectly legal. Right to the point that they admitted there was nothing they could do about me reholstering and walking out of the PD that night.

As always, be polite, professional and law abiding please.

And remember: Open carry is 100% legal. Don't let anyone tell you differently. Just be careful of people like Mr. Vanaham who would lie on a sworn statement to try and infringe upon your rights.
 

gogodawgs

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dadpharm wrote:
I understand open carry is legal but if you were making people uncomfortable why not conceal . Its the polite thing to do,.much like not smoking and chocking everyone else. Of course its our right to carry but stilll???

For the past 4 decades gun owners have been told to conceal and be quiet. Gun owners have been told to live in the closet, don't tell your neighbors, don't let your kids tell their friends. As long as you lie to people and keep it quiet we will let you have your firearm, you be quiet while we marginalize and demonize gun owners.

They are uncomfortable because of their own ignorance, not because of any single fact of firearm safety. They are uncomfortable because of the demonizing of gun owners for the past 4 decades.

It is time to come out of the closet and stop living that lie, it is time for YOU, 'dadpharm' to realize that other's fears are unwarranted and irrational and to stand up for your beliefs. Those things take courage; you may alienate friends and family that are irrational.
 

zigziggityzoo

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Edward Peruta wrote:
I have just ended a phone conversation with Mark Vanaman the person who confronted Richard Burgess and called the Wallingford Police Department.

I called to give him a courtesy heads up that this information is posted on open carry.

Mr. Vanaman a 24 year permit holder is convinced that he had the right to confront Mr. Burgess and call the police and appears willing to do it again.

Mr. Vanaman was politely advised that open carry is legal in CT and remains convinced that it is NOT.

With uneducated permit holders we are all in trouble.

In the New Mexico St. John case the Federal Court ruled in favor of the plaintiff Mr. St. John and he walked with a very nice settlement for being detained.  St John WAS NOT ARRESTED.


As reported in the Alamogordo Daily News today, the Alamogordo, NM Police have paid $21,000 to settle with Matthew A. St. John whom police detained for open carrying a holstered handgun at a movie theater.  This settlement follows a host of settlements by police departments around the country with plaintiffs who were detained by police for openly carrying a holstered handgun, including Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Virginia (see another settlement here), and Georgia.  More cases are still pending in Ohio, Georgia, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.


Mr. Vanaman should have kept his nose out of this situation and left it up to the owner to resolve the problem.

If anyone was disorderly it was Mr. Vanaman.

There also seems to be problems with the informaiton he provided to the Wallingford Police Department about what was or was not said by Mr. Burgess.

Let the attorneys sort it out, I'm sure that this is not over.

Taken from the DPS website for Bail Enforcement agents.

VANAMAN, MARK J 315 Approved 04/22/2011 313 GROVE ST MERIDEN CT 06451 (203) 537-9030



Just an FYI, the Michigan case was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.

Michigan Open Carry, Inc. has yet to FOIA for checks paid out to the plaintiff.
 

Haz.

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dadpharm wrote:
Just asking for trouble and it does nothing to build trust so that we can open carry without people being afraid. I open carry when I visit my daughter in Indiana and have been asked only one time to conceal as some elderly folks were upset. Went to the car and concealed the weapon. Not a big deal and no confrontation.Could have saved yourself, the police an d the owner a lot of trouble just for pride and stuborness

You can leave your gun at home if you like. That way some elderly folk wont be upset and save yourself a walk to your car and you wont get into any trouble. Nothing like having a gun locked in the glovebox of a car and needing it immediately in times of real trouble.

You know its raining heavily here this evening so Imight stay homerather than goand visit my daughterplanned. I mean, going out in my legally registered car even though I am licenced to drive,and it is still legal to drive in the wet, would only be asking for trouble.By staying homeIdefinitely wont be involvedin a possibleaccident and so I would save the police and myself and all others all that trouble. Yep, lets swallow our pride and not be stuborn by insisting on going out in the wet. Lets justnot do anything so as not to offend people like big burly Bail Enforcement Agents, or the elderly.
 

virginiatuck

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I've just read the whole thread, I think unless I zoned-out reading the plethora of comments. I'm glad to hear that everything is alright now, Rich B.; at least that it appears to be. I support OC and carry openly as I see fit; depending on my clothing for the day and what I'm doing.

I may have some insight that hasn't been specifically mentioned here yet, so I've chosen one particular post as my muse.


jayspapa wrote:
dadpharm ,

Please exsplain something to me. A man is openly carrying his handgun on his hip. Another person ( owner , manager , etc...) , tells open carrier that he is scareing people and should cover the firearm.

Now , per your advice , he covers the gun and everyone is happy . My question to you is this... How can this be ?? Nothing has changed about the gun being there and the people knowing it is there. The gun didn't vanish . It is still right there on his hip.

So these people that were so scared of the gun because they see it , know it is still there but covered now . ???? How has anything changed??????? :banghead::banghead:

Just a little bit of common sense goes a very long way here.
Something would have changed had Rich B. concealed his firearm after having been asked to do so by several people. The rabble-rousers and tattle-tales would have believed that it was legal. From reading the statements, I believe that was the crux of the matter. It was not that they had an issue with the firearm in and of itself, but that they believed the law was being broken in front of them.

Aside from being compelled by a law, I do not do something just because somebody tells me to do it. I have to believe in the action with my own mind and conscience. Obviously, if I've already chosen to carry openly then my own mind and conscience believes in that. If my shirt's untucked and someone tells me to tuck it in, do you think I'll do it? Would you? If my shirt's tucked in and someone tells me to untuck it, do you think I'll do it? Not a chance in hell; well, unless it's one of the women in my life. :p

I have it good here in Northern Virginia, and for the most part the rest of the Commonwealth, thanks first and foremost to the veteran OC'ers around here. There were and still are some hardships, but thanks to their fortitude those are few and far between. The absolute worst encounter, and it wasn't even that bad, that I've ever had as a result of openly carrying a firearm was at a restaurant in Leesburg. I was there for about an hour when the town police showed up to talk to me. The police said "your open carrying is fine. You're just being asked to put the firearm in your car." Long story short, the police weren't asking me themselves. They were asking me on behalf of the manager, who refused to believe that it was legal to carry a firearm into a restaurant that serves alcohol. He didn't even get a clue from the fact that the officers were not arresting me. I left voluntarily in lieu of disarming and leaving valuable property in an unattended vehicle.

I believe that, in time, with more people like Rich B., Connecticut will at least get to that point. That is, unless somehow the anti-gun crowd gets the State constitution changed.

Thanks for sharing your story, Rich.
 

Leverdude

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virginiatuck wrote:
I've just read the whole thread, I think unless I zoned-out reading the plethora of comments. I'm glad to hear that everything is alright now, Rich B.; at least that it appears to be. I support OC and carry openly as I see fit; depending on my clothing for the day and what I'm doing.

I may have some insight that hasn't been specifically mentioned here yet, so I've chosen one particular post as my muse.


jayspapa wrote:
dadpharm ,

Please exsplain something to me. A man is openly carrying his handgun on his hip. Another person ( owner , manager , etc...) , tells open carrier that he is scareing people and should cover the firearm.

Now , per your advice , he covers the gun and everyone is happy . My question to you is this... How can this be ?? Nothing has changed about the gun being there and the people knowing it is there. The gun didn't vanish . It is still right there on his hip.

So these people that were so scared of the gun because they see it , know it is still there but covered now . ???? How has anything changed??????? :banghead::banghead:

Just a little bit of common sense goes a very long way here.
Something would have changed had Rich B. concealed his firearm after having been asked to do so by several people. The rabble-rousers and tattle-tales would have believed that it was legal. From reading the statements, I believe that was the crux of the matter. It was not that they had an issue with the firearm in and of itself, but that they believed the law was being broken in front of them.

Aside from being compelled by a law, I do not do something just because somebody tells me to do it. I have to believe in the action with my own mind and conscience. Obviously, if I've already chosen to carry openly then my own mind and conscience believes in that. If my shirt's untucked and someone tells me to tuck it in, do you think I'll do it? Would you? If my shirt's tucked in and someone tells me to untuck it, do you think I'll do it? Not a chance in hell; well, unless it's one of the women in my life. :p

I have it good here in Northern Virginia, and for the most part the rest of the Commonwealth, thanks first and foremost to the veteran OC'ers around here. There were and still are some hardships, but thanks to their fortitude those are few and far between. The absolute worst encounter, and it wasn't even that bad, that I've ever had as a result of openly carrying a firearm was at a restaurant in Leesburg. I was there for about an hour when the town police showed up to talk to me. The police said "your open carrying is fine. You're just being asked to put the firearm in your car." Long story short, the police weren't asking me themselves. They were asking me on behalf of the manager, who refused to believe that it was legal to carry a firearm into a restaurant that serves alcohol. He didn't even get a clue from the fact that the officers were not arresting me. I left voluntarily in lieu of disarming and leaving valuable property in an unattended vehicle.

I believe that, in time, with more people like Rich B., Connecticut will at least get to that point. That is, unless somehow the anti-gun crowd gets the State constitution changed.

Thanks for sharing your story, Rich.

Only real difference is that we need a permit to OC so its alot less likely that people will just accept seeing anyone anywhere OCing. The issue as I see it is more ignorance involving LE. If they knew the law then once finding Rich had a permit they could have, or should have, just let him go. That would have educated at least those in the pool hall at the time to the facts concerning carry & permits here.

Our state constitution, which is pretty direct & to the point regarding firearms seems to be of little real help since in CT you pretty much need a permit to even get a handgun. Its not illegal to have one in your home or place of business without a permit but unless someone already had the gun prior to 94 then you need a permit or certificate of eligibility to get one. Lacking one of those documents your right to own a gun is very infringed here, despite the constitutions. Given those facts I dont think it would require a change in the constitution to outlaw OC, just a change in the carry permit statutes.

That said I'm glad it worked out in Rich's favor and I hope things like this sway folks in the direction of acceptance instead of fueling antigun sentiment. Unlike VA where it would take major legislation to outlaw OC in CT it would be a simple matter of changing permit rules.

IMO its hard to make a case viewing this like race discrimination, since its not applied according to race. Its not, as some mentioned like Rosa Parks not moving to the front of the bus, unless everyone, white & black were made to sit in the back. If a law were in place requireing everyone without a permit to sit in the back of the buss & front seat permits were given without regard to race that wouldn't have been racial discrimination either.

Rights are for everyone and it seems silly for those chooseing to excercise one and getting rebuffed to try to liken that to racial discrimination. The very reason we have such restrictive gun laws here is because of public opinion, right or wrong. They are decades old at least & were passed at a time when few outside of hunting or LE chose to carry openly so it was no big deal at the time. As time passed people began to think it was a "concealed" carry permit instead of just a carry permit. Then our legislature turned everything upside down by requireing a permit to purchase one.
Nobody, even those here OCing now, knew it was legal here before the Goldberg case. Whereas in VA everyone should know OC is legal because it requires no permit & has never even been in question.

As I said I'm glad it worked in Rich's favor & I support those who choose to OC here, even though I'm not one. I'd just rather see OC not requireing a permit at all, it would alleviate all the confusion & treat RKBA as a right, rights donr need permits, permits convey a privilege, I dont have a privilege to carry a gun, I have a right to do so. Far as I know we are the only state that allows OC which requires a permit for it.
 

Edward Peruta

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A very serious question is beginning to take shape here and around the country.

QUESTION:

IF AN OWNER OF A BUSINESS HAS THE RIGHT TO PROHIBIT CARRYING FIREARMS IN HIS ESTABLISHMENT, DOES HE ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW THE WEAPON IS TO BE WORN OR CARRIED IF HE DOES NOT PROHIBITCARRYING FIREARMS?


IN OTHER WORDS, CAN A BUSINESS OWNER MANDATE CONCEALEMENT AS A CONDIDITON OF ALLOWINGFIREARMS TO BE CARRIED?

The question was raised by a very knowledgeable individual in law enforcement and poses a rather unique area for discussion.
 
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