What is your take on laser sights?

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As I said above, it was evening. The dot is very easy to see at that range. It was much harder to see the clay pigeons. We could only see the yellows, the orange were invisible. Obviously in the daytime it wouldn't have worked.

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Shame I don't know anyone who has these on their rig. It would be interesting to see if I could spot that dot at 100, heck, I'd be happy if I could spot the yellow pigeon.....

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In low light it is very easy to see, just like a laser pointer. If you have one, walk outside in the evening and light up the garage door of the neighbor at the end of the street - its clear as can be. Doesn't work on non-reflective stuff, bushes, drab, matte colored, etc...

Can't help you with seeing the pigeons though.

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Although I don't use the laser for long range targeting, I can see it well enough at 100 yards. Not too much farther than that.

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If I was rude, I apologize. I've had migraines all day, for three weeks due to a concussion. I did feel a bit picked apart though.

The reports of a laser making a BG more compliant were from an article in "Cops" magazine. A number of LE made comments that I shared here. I belive it was from a survey of LEOs that lasers were issued for their gun. The reports were all very positive and I don't recall any negative comments. Like I said, it was opinions of the cops who have lasers on their duty guns

I can't tell you what issue it was in. I believe it was last year. Perhaps there is a search funtion on their web site. I also read on the Internet about LE laser use. I don't recall the URLs. I was already into lasers
and believed in them, so the articles weren't so significant that I would remember which issue it was in. I will try to find it for you.

One thing I should mention is how to use it in SD. You don't turn the laser on, then watch the dot while moving up to a vital area. You can do one two things: Turn the laser on immediaty when it clears your holster and then try to get it on the BG.

The other way is to get the gun pointed at the BG, then turn the laser on for 'fine tuning,' so to speak. With both methods, you never take your eyes off of the BG for obvious reasons.

One advantage of lasers is the above. With sights you are trying to focus on your sights and the BG. I believe with most SD situations, one doesn't have time (or forgets) to sight in the target and they end up pointing the gun at the BG, instead of sighting in the target.

With the laser, you point your firearm first, then you can make aiming adjustments by moving the dot on target. You never have to do anything else.

You can decide at what point you turn the laser on and train over and over until it becomes reflex. I have made it reflex to turn on the laser when my gun clears the holster. As I said before, it allows you to shoot very accurately from the hip. If it was me, and I had time - I would point my pistol at his center mass and then move the dot where multiplex
bullets will be arriving!

Lasers can be a distraction (as you were shown) when you start practicing with them or if you aren't training right.

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We all have the bad day or the time when something typed suffers from not getting body language or intonation from the person who said it. It's a danger of considering typed interchanges to be equivalent to spoken communications.

I'll look for that article a bit or maybe someone will post up a link or copy of it, sounds interesting. It certainly makes sense that if you are yelling at a guy over a bull-horn in a LEO or military situation that this could occur but in a SD gun battle, who is looking at their chest for red dots or using a bull-horn while exchanging shots with someone? That was my point about the adrenalin surge affecting both or all players in the scenario.

Looking over the CT video scenarios, I see some use in the very low-light, indoors situations (firing around the corner for instance) and can picture it in a known hostile, long-term environment where most everyone you meet is a BG or at least potential BG. That seems to further fit why SWAT and SO units wouldfind them useful.That also seems to fit that set shot, stalking setup with time to do a slow, sure target acquisition. In their scenario where you are running a gauntlet in a house full of bad guys it makes some sense but again, isn't this more a military/LE clearing situation rather than SD?

The scenarios at the bank ATMand car seat are much more sudden and, for the average person who isn't going to train extensively (like weekly)on them, I agreed completely with the "just point naturally" method. I may be optimistic but I believe that I could clear a paintball gun over the window sill and put twothrough the window and into the guy in the same time I could with a CT no matter how much practice I had. Since it is off-kilter 90 degrees, it seems like its too awkward to look for the dots. Note that is NOT saying I could do it before that guy got me but the question is whether the lasers slow you down or at least whether the increased targeting assist is worth the investment/trainingThe same with the ATM, down on my back, drawing and shooting upward at a guy looming over me with a baseball bat seems to lend itself to the natural point and shoot method mentioned by the LEO and one of the upthread posters.

The setup at the convenience store was more interesting and I can see two sides of that one. If the BG is pumped up and tunnel-visioned, over-focused on the clerk or someone else, then your practice should assert itself and allow clean shots until the threat is down. This seems borne out in the Richmond convenience store robbery last yearwhere the guy in the OC cowboy rig was ignored by the robber who was busy shooting the clerk. Also, I recall a bank robberyin Broomfield, CO where a uniformed policeman was literally pushed aside by the robber who jumped onto the counter and began screaming that it was a holdup. That officer was a bicycle cop wearing a blue polo with 6" reflective yellow letters spelling out POLICE on the back. However, in CT's scenario the GG starts backing away while shooting and, if you trained for that, it seems realistic to expect that the dot can be used to offset your movement. Personally though, I believe I would have stayed still to take a shot like that rather than just back away from a guy with a shotgun.

And you thought you were writing a novel?

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SFCRetired wrote:

Two things about them make me nervous; in bright light conditions, they are useless and batteries tend to go dead at the most inopportune times. If you have trained yourself to rely on a laser sight, you might find yourself in trouble in either of those situations.

In my mind, it is better to train yourself to "instinct" shoot, but to also use regular sights as necessary. In most CQC situations, from about thirty feet down to zero, you are not going to want to take any more time than absolutely necessary before trying to stop the threat.

I don't say that laser sights do not have a use, but I don't think the average LAC really has a need for them. I am a firm believer in the KISS principle.

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An important point for the laser is its deterrent effect. In most defensive uses of a gun, no shots are fired. This happens about 95% of the time, though those figures are difficult to obtain with precision,. The laser is an impressive visual detterent to an attacker. It shows that you are likely a sophisticated weapons user instead of a novice. I hear a number of anecdotal account where the potential attacker saw the laser dot and became much less aggressive.

Another point is the usefulness of the laser as a low light aiming device. There are others, such as night sights, but the laser works very well when you cannot see your sights but can make out a large target.

Third, the laser allows you to complete accurate aimed fire while holding the handgun at your hip, where it is least likely to be snatched or knocked away.

Fourth, Many have mentioned the substantial benefit of using the laser as a training device. This is what I use my CT for primarily, as a device to teach trigger control to CCW students. It works extremely well.

Fifth, It is a precision aiming devise. If you need to hit a small target, such as the top of a head, a foot, or a hand that sticks out from behind cover, the laser can do it. I can group about as well with the laser as I can with open sites, and for precise shots the laser is faster. Sometimes being two to three inches off just doesn't cut it.

Not all self defense uses of a gun require ultra fast shooting at close moving targets. In fact, the vast majority do not.

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ccwinstructor wrote:

SFCRetired wrote:

Two things about them make me nervous; in bright light conditions, they are useless and batteries tend to go dead at the most inopportune times.  If you have trained yourself to rely on a laser sight, you might find yourself in trouble in either of those situations.

In my mind, it is better to train yourself to "instinct" shoot, but to also use regular sights as necessary.  In most CQC situations, from about thirty feet down to zero, you are not going to want to take any more time than absolutely necessary before trying to stop the threat. 

I don't say that laser sights do not have a use, but I don't think the average LAC really has a need for them.  I am a firm believer in the KISS principle.

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An important point for the laser is its deterrent effect.  In most defensive uses of a gun, no shots are fired.  This happens about 95% of the time, though those figures are difficult to obtain with precision,.  The laser is an impressive visual detterent to an attacker.  It shows that you are likely a sophisticated weapons user instead of a novice.  I hear a number of anecdotal account where the potential attacker saw the laser dot and became much less aggressive.

Another point is the usefulness of the laser as a low light aiming device.  There are others, such as night sights, but the laser works very well when you cannot see your sights but can make out a large target.

Third, the laser allows you to complete accurate aimed fire while holding
the handgun at your hip, where it is least likely to be snatched or knocked away. 

Fourth, Many have mentioned the substantial benefit of using the laser as a training device.  This is what I use my CT for primarily, as a device to teach trigger control to CCW students.  It works extremely well.

Fifth, It is a precision aiming devise.  If you need to hit a small target, such as the top of a head, a foot, or a hand that sticks out from behind cover, the laser can do it.  I can group about as well with the laser as I can with open sites, and for precise shots the laser is faster.  Sometimes being two to three inches off just doesn't cut it.

Not all self defense uses of a gun require ultra fast shooting at close moving targets.  In fact, the vast majority do not.

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+1

I agree completely with you. Addressing the same post that you did: I said that one should train with sights too. As for a laser being invisible in the daylight, that is true for red lasers, but not for green lasers. I have a Lasermax green rail mount laser that is very noticeable in daylight. I use it on my carry gun.

As for not having time to activate your laser, who cares as long as the BG is no longer a threat? A laser is an addition to you firearm, it is there as an option. There might be times you don't need it, but there may be times it could save your life. The BG might give up his weapon when he sees the dot on him. Wouldn't that be worth the cost of a laser if it does stop a shoot out? Lives may be saved by not having to pull the trigger, possibly yours.

As was mentioned, I can think of situations where I wouldn't take the shot using sights, but I would with my calibrated laser. You might be able to take out the BG and not hit innocents close by.

I think we have said it all now!

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"Another point is the usefulness of the laser as a low light aiming device. There are others, such as night sights, but the laser works very well when you cannot see your sights but can make out a large target."


So, the whole "identify your target" thing gets thrown out the window because you have a laser? How about a weapon mounted light, or just a good flashlight to shine in their eyes. And with all this talk of the laser being such a "great deterrent" have you ever stared 160 lumens of light down? It takes your breathe away just about, even when there is other light around, let alone at night. And yes I know it can have just as much effect on yourself as on whoever you're trying to hit with the light but I still think its better to identify your target than just point a laser at them and hope its a bad guy who poses a threat to you.

I will say for practicing trigger control a laser is great, possibly one of the best exercises for such. But for self-defense I have yet to be convinced, for the reason stated. People put these lasers on their weapons and all of the sudden they're superman and can do whatever they want, ie not properly identifying their target.

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Ecocks, I found an issue of the cop magazine that I told you about. The full name is: "American Cop". The website is:

www.americancopmagazine

I hope that is clickable. If not, I need to learn how to do it. I think the magazine is great. It has reviews of guns and related items. I find out about new items that are not in the other gun subscriptions that I have. By the way, it isn't the issue that talked about lasers.

I don't know why the text size is changing here. Anyway, I wanted to pass that on. The concussion has greatly affected me. It is so hard to hit the right keys and remember how to spell common words!

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I don't know who you are talking about. I clearly stated that the laser allows you to keep your eyes on the target, not having to focus on your sights allows you to see excactly what your target is doing.

Regarding lights, I agree they can be a good item to have.
I didn't mention them as this thread is about lasers.

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I certainly agree with the utility of lights. They don't make lasers any less useful, and not everyone has a light all of the time.

We can all pose hypotheticals. If everything were optimum all the time, our full time security detail would be watching the intruder with remote night vision equipment while directing the local constabulary to the best point to effect the arrest. Sarcasm off

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But not identifying your target is A OKAY because you have a laser?

That was my main beef, everything else in my opinion boils down to personal preference, and its not for me, that simple. The whole "its a good lowlight aiming device if all you can see is a large target" is what gets me. If that "large target" turns out to be your husband/wife/child/lost school teacher/LEO and you just shot with out IDing your target properly you're gonna be in a world of hurt. Or what if the BG wasn't armed and wasn't an immediate threat?

Lasers have their place if that's your preference, but please, don't just point and shoot at any target you can barely make out. Its drilled into the shooters head "know your target and what is behind it." So put that into practice off the range.

I will retract all of that if your laser only shows on Bad guys but doesn't show on friendlies. If yours does that I want one. *sarcasm off*

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But not identifying your target is A OKAY because you have a laser?

Where did I ever say you do not identify the target?

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"Another point is the usefulness of the laser as a low light aiming device. There are others, such as night sights, but the laser works very well when you cannot see your sights but can make out a large target."

If you can't see your sights how can you have properly ID'd your target? Or how do you know the target has a weapon? If that isn't what you meant than by all means go ahead and clarify.

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tdbarge wrote:

"Another point is the usefulness of the laser as a low light aiming device. There are others, such as night sights, but the laser works very well when you cannot see your sights but can make out a large target."

If you can't see your sights how can you have properly ID'd your target? Or how do you know the target has a weapon? If that isn't what you meant than by all means go ahead and clarify.

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I hope that the following examples are sufficient to answer your question.

Perhaps you saw the muzzle flash as he fired at you. Perhaps you ID'd him before the lights went out. Perhaps he/she has been credibly threatening you for a good while, such as a domestic situation, and you find the power cut to your house and a silhouette in the doorway to your bedroom with a very familiar threatening voice and words. Maybe there is a wide area power outage and during the emergency a group of criminals is breaking down your door. Maybe you are in the wilderness and find yourself chomped by a bear and you are dragged from your tent without a light but with your revolver. Perhaps you have already been attacked in a lonely, dark area, have been hurt, and have now mangaged escape and access to your firearm as your attacker searches for you, cursing and threatening what evil things he will do to you once he lays hands on you.

I do not claim that any of these situations are very common, but they illustrate that it is not impossible to find yourself in a situation where you cannot see your sights but you can make out a large target that is legitimately ID'ed as a deadly threat. I have read numerous claims that most deadly threats occur in low light situations, and most of the above situations are illustrations from actual events that I have heard/read about over the last 40 years.

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I'll buy those situations. Thanks for the explanation. Layzer away.

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I'm a retired LEO, firearms instructor and not a fan of Laser sights. They can destroy the balance of the weapon, are light sensitive (Don't work well in some light situations) Some can and do get bumped on in the holsters, and the result is a dead battery.
The laser beam can give away your location.

IMHO:
Good 'Night Sights' and a good flashlight are more useful.
(Don't forget that you must identify your target)
If you are shooting in light thats good enough to see
clay pigeons, why use a laser?
Lastly; In most situations, Iron Sights are just faster.

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So much BS in this thread, you could grow tomatoes.

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Interesting Dan.

In your opinion, what is the overall view of LEO's on lasers? Please indicate if you see a difference between "SWAT/Entry Team" usage and regular patrol officers' viewpoints.