LOERetired
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I’ve been reading some of the other members blogs in other states related to their encounters with citizens and law enforcement, and it’s really interesting on how members responded to each of the situation. Some responded well and some not so well, I’ve been reading them should I encounter the same set of circumstances so that I can be better prepared to respond. Here are some of the ones I found and the link to each, keep in mind these are from different states so the laws may be different then Wisconsin.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44674&forum_id=55&highlight=law+enforcement+officer
I had a scary encounter with a man at target in Everett today. Me and a friend were going shopping, talking about permits for certain states as he was curious. We get to the shoe section and he proceeds to go about his business. As I am looking at a pair of potential hiking shoes the man in question takes one look at my side and the following dialouge ensues (to the best of my knowledge):
Man: What is that? Points to my side
Me: Oh, that is my gun.
Man: What do you carry that around for?
Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?
Me: Walk away, no amount of verbal abuse constitutes the justification for use of lethal force
Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy
Me: I would report you to management and the police sir, my life would not be in danger.
Man: What would I have to do to get you to pull that thing
Me: You would have to pull a deadly weapon and even then I would have options before firing.
At this point I can tell he is displeased but the conversation remained civil, it didn't stay that way. A couple of other questions followed but then he gets crazy and starts saying quite loudly:
Man: Hey everyone this guy has a gun
Me: Sir could you please quiet down, I am minding my business
Man: You are trying to get people to come after you, you dont need that
Me: You don't know that sir and neither do I, and the one making a scene here is you, you are yelling and drawing attention not me.
Man: You are making a scene, you have a GUN!
Me: So, I am just going about my day
Man: With a GUN!
Me: Sir I have a right to protect myself
Man: I don't care, what about everyone else in here
Me: Sir, they don't have a problem, you do, now please I want to go about my business (I attempt to walk away, he follows and pulls a couple aside -- ass)
Man: Hey, you know he has a gun
Lady: Yea, so he's not bothering anyone. If he wants to protect himself that is his prerogative, you sir are the problem not him.
Me: Thank you ma'am have a nice day
Man: What the hell is your problem, you are being an idiot
Me: Sir leave me alone, I am within the law, I have every right to be here and you are starting to bother me
Man: hey people guy with a gun
Me: (s*#&, gotta leave, try to walk away again, he follows, I was being way too nice, but I HAD TO STAY CALM)
Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
Me: (put a firm grip on the handle, yanks away and steps back and exclaim loud enough to bring to attention that a serious situation is developing): "Hey get your hand off my gun"
Man: What, not allowed to touch it.
Me: You are lucky I have no desire to throw you in jail, now LEAVE!
Man: You are trying to be a man, I think you have a small dick
Me: If you want to talk to management or the police you are within your right to do so, you were out of line and I am not breaking the law.
Man: @#$% you man, I will talk to the cops
Me: fine have a nice day
(he finally leaves then calls over a store worker)
Employee: You ok, is there a problem
Me: ma'am, what is your store policy about open carry of firearms?
Employee: I don't think its allowed but I am not sure
Me: Ok, how would you like to proceed?
Employee: Lets go up to the front, I am not sure, but I will be calling the cops
Me: I will cooperate fully with you and law enforcement
Employee: Thank you, calls up a security officer
Security: Everything ok
By this time my nerves are frayed and details are sketchy, so I will give the short version: the security officer and the target employee call 911 who then surprisingly tell them that I am ok and within the law and have no problem with me carrying!! They also thanked me for staying calm and being informed about what i was doing, (thank you OCDO!!!!!!) The police were not dispatched and the man got away scott free, but the store was professional about their dealing with me and I told them as such and would be honored to participate in their business. (Oh, I did tell them that the idiot tried to grab my gun and he was being a disturbance and a potential threat to public safety.)
Thank you guys, all the hard work and study has paid off!
I will be in Lakewood tomorrow (still no internet, so feel free to respond, it will take a while to get to them)
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44735&forum_id=33&highlight=stopped+
Me and my friend Steev went shopping for a few things the othernight at about1:30 a.m. at eureka walmart. I have oc'ed there multiple times without incident. The only difference between this trip and the last few was that rather than being in and out we took some time to browse around. after gathering a few item we thouhgt that we would try and find some toys for steev's kids and went back to the toy section. Everything was just hunky-doory steev was browsing and I was playing with the new bop-it when to my front a eureka police officer approached me. The officer asked "what have you got there?" and gestured to my gun. I responded "My pistol.". Then the cop asked "Do you have an I.D.?". To which I replied "Am I being detained?". "No" was his response. I then told him if I was not beening detained that I didnt wish to provide I.D.. At which point two other officers approached from the rear and one witha very bad attitude and foul mouth raised his voice to say something along the lines of "Don't even start with that bulls**t produce you I.D.!". I tried to stay calm as I turned around to face him and said"This officer just told me that I am not being detained , so I dont have to produce and I.D.". He then made a threat to unlawfully detain me if I did'nt comply. Now once again it was about 1:30 a.m. and I didnt fell like getting drug out back and getting the sense kicked out of me so I chickened out and produced. They ran my name and I began explaining to them that they had no lwaful means to hinder me in my shopping and that I had done nothing wrong. They used the ooohh so common "we need to make sure your not a felon" excuse. As my name cleaared the rude officer gestured to ny pistol and asked what kind if holster I had, to which I responded "A cheap-o". He then in a very disrespectful and unproffessional statement told me " I could walk up behind you and grab that gun and blow your f***in brains out".
A they handed my liscense back I told the officer that we lived in America and that I dont have to produce I.D. upon demand. To which he replied "well vote democrat!" , and walked away with the 3rd officer.
The first cop stood around and chatted with me and gave me the regulare lecture. So I took it upon myself to inform himthat that shouldnt have happened. That the constitution garuantee's the right to be secure in my papers against unreasonable searches and seizures.
The whole thing made me sick!
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=43956&forum_id=33&highlight=stopped+
This is a video taken after meeting a couple of Friends for lunch. I was open carrying and walking down the sidewalkon main street St Charles Mo. I was detained and disarmedby St Charles police.
1st half http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkUj7CdOpTI
2nd half http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0EcFcFdZJc
Doc
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44274&forum_id=36&highlight=detained
So I was out of cigarettes and decided to walk two blocks to City Stop. On my way back I was about a quarter of the way when I see a car pull very slowly up to the curb going my direction, every time I got a little bit closer to the car the car pulled up a little farther ahead of me. I wasn't sure what was up so I crossed the street so I would have some distance between me and the car.
The car then stopped at the curb and as I walk by I see a man driving with his cell phone to his ear and a woman in the passenger seat, both of them with their eyes glued to me.
about 3 minutes later a metro cop drives by me then flips a Bitch and pulls up next to the curb about 20 feet ahead of me. He turns on his lights and announces over the PA for me to stop walking and keep my hands in view.
When he got out of the car he just walked up to me, asked for my ID which I said I would not give him, but stated my first middle and last name and that I was a Nevada resident. He then asked me why I was carrying a firearm to which I then stated that I would exercise my constitutional right to remain silent. He then went to his car and asked that I keep my hands in plain sight. While he's in the car the guy who called the cops drove up on the other side of the road, parked and got out of his car walking up on me very aggressively swearing and shouting that "My punk ass was going to go to jail" and "How dare I carry a gun in his neighborhood." At this point the police officer got out of his car and told him to be quiet and go stand in front of his car. He walked over to me and said, "Your name was clear of any wants or warrants, since you haven't broken any laws you are free to go."
Now as I'm walking away this guy who called the cops on me started in on the cop saying, "WTF, he's got a gun and your just going to let him go?" The police officer again told him that unless he wants to receive a citation to "Shut up and listen" and began to educate the guy on Nevada firearms laws. I don't know exactly what was said after that because I was too far away.
I do know this, I think Metro handled the situation fairly and professionally as I was only detained for about 5 minutes, he didn't disarm me or even handcuff me, they didn't grill me with questions, they didn't even ask for my blue card. I assume that's because I have a Nevada ID card and I have my firearms registered in Clark county that he could get my picture and registration info on his computer and see that I'm legit. I guess all he was concerned about was weather I was legally allowed to possess a firearm.
Funny, I think.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39159&forum_id=39&highlight=detained
This happened in December of 2008.
I had just gotten dropped off to my apartment by a friend; we had gotten back from the west side area about 25 miles away and were shooting some of our firearms. It was almost 5PM, and I had told a neighbor I worked with that I would look at her car because it had a check-engine light. Not 5 minutes after I got dropped off, I had my toolbox in hand walking down my street, with my .45 still in its holster, carrying openly on the street.
Keep in mind, I live in the warzone, just north of Central avenue, and we've had a bit of police activity in the area but not on my particular street.
My neighbor lives 6 houses down, and owns a car identical to mine. I knocked on her door and I proceeded to look at her car. Maybe 10 minutes into the diagnosis, with my head under the hood of her car, I noticed a police cruiser rolled by her house very slowly, heading southbound. A small thought occurred to me, as I had carried open up the street to my neighbor's house...
Nah, probably isn't for me, I thought.
I then realized I was missing a tool necessary to remove a part. I told her I needed to go back home to get it. She said she would go with me.
So we start walking down the street.
Another cop car, this time a Sergeant's SUV, comes rolling around the corner, heading northbound. The southbound cruiser had turned around and started following the police SUV.
Aw, damnit, I thought, telling my neighbor "these guys are probably for me, don't worry about it, my paperwork is legit-" as she knew I had a CCW.
"Ok," she said, kind of smiling but I could tell she was a little unsure.
All of a sudden, a third cruiser was heading southbound on my street, and with the other two units they had boxed us in. A big (and I mean big as in fat) sergeant with a nice looking Kimber .45 and an attitude steps up to me with his gun drawn, as well as the other officers drawing their own duty pieces:
"HANDS ON YOUR HEAD, ON YOUR F*CKING KNEES!!!!"
So, needless to say, my 50 year old neighbor and myself were on our knees, hands on our heads, in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of the street, with ALL OF THE NEIGHBORS ON THE STREET looking at us, staring at three police officers with their guns drawn. The sergeant was standing maybe 3 feet from me, his .45 aimed directly at my head.
And I was smiling... SMILING!!
"I don't know you, man! I don't know you!" the sergeant bellowed to me, not liking the fact I was smiling at him. I wanted to laugh so hard!
A female officer had taken my .45 out of my fobus holster, ejecting the mag and unchambering the firearm.
"Why are you carrying a gun?" the sergeant yelled at me.
"Open carry is legal in New Mexico," I replied.
"Where do you live?" the sergeant continued-
I weakly pointed with my right hand over my left shoulder to my apartment, which was maybe 100 yards away, "right over there..." I said, still smiling.
Somewhere in the process, my wallet with my CCW and DL came out, and both verified my current address. In New Mexico, if your CCW doesn't have the current address, you can be fined $500 and possibly spend a month in jail. It's very worth mailing your CCW to NMDPS with the $5 transfer fee when you move to another house or apartment, simply to save yourself from this predicament if it ever happens to you.
"Why are you carrying a gun in the warzone?" said the third officer, another male, with not quite as much attitude as his superior officer had.
"Open carry is legal in New Mexico," I stated again.
Do these guys get it? I'm legal! I said to myself.
Not to mention, it IS the warzone, why NOT carry a gun?
After more questions I don't exactly remember, and stating that NM is an open carry state at least three times, I was given my firearm back, empty of course, and basically let go. My CCW matched my DL in regards to the living address, and there was nothing they could hold me on. My neighbor and I had started walking down the street, and when I knew all of the cops were back in their cars, I reloaded my handgun, chambered a round, and put my .45 back in its holster.
God Bless New Mexico and its open carry laws
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/13080.html
I wasat a Fourth of July community gathering in Snoqualmie.
So, the first guy comes up and asked me why I'm open carrying. I told him I had many reasons, but one was to educate others as to the legality of open carry in Washington State, and offered him a pamphlet which he refused.Then he shows me his ID (sorry, I didn't note which department),and says he knows it's my right, but I shouldn't do it around kids, and that I was not prepared for a gun grab.
He says, "I could have taken your gun from you, and put a bullet in your head just now."
I asked, "Do I need to worry about that from you?" No answer. I asked again. Still no answer. I didn't have my recorder on, because the were in off- duty.
The discussion went on for ten more minutes, and he was joined by his LEO friend. Neither one of them wanted a pamphlet from me. I don't think I changed their minds, but about twenty people around us heard the discussion, and saw me asserting my rights unashamedly. I enjoyed that!
I love the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the United States of America! Happy Fourth of July everyone!
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=41243&forum_id=43&highlight=detained
As some of you are aware I hosted an OC meet at a private location (my church) on 3/15.
The meet was fun, there where 12 of us in all which is pretty good for a first time meet.
As we where finishing up my son & his GF and thier 1 year old baby where the first to leave. They where parked about 30 or 40 ft from the door.
Police swarm in, put himup against thier vehicle, handcuff himand take his gun & begin a background check. Thier resoning was because he was walking around with a gun in a "known drug area".
I went out to see what was going on and an officer takes a hold of my arm and guides me to the middle of the road & steals my gun & knife. This is where the short video starts (there is a lot more video, but this makes the point)
NOTE FROM VIDEO:
At about 18 seconds: After someone mentions taking my gun, the officers reply is "we got it secured right now until we figure out why he is walking around with a gun"
around 23 seconds or so: "when we see a guy with a gun we are going to check it out"
25-30 sec. The guy with his hands behind his back with officers is my son in handcuffs & gun taken (stolen). He had literally walked out with his girlfriend and 1 year old baby when the police stopped and cuffed him.
1min 15-18 seconds: I say I am being forced to "show" ID & officer Fleming says "yes you are or you are going to jail". There is no Ohio law that says you have to "show" a physical ID. I tried to tell him I would tell him my info, but that was not good enough.
2min 13 sec I say I was forced to produce ID & Officer say "Officer Fleming forced you " and when I press for what crime they answer for carrying a gun.
The next day an e-mail is sent out to all sworn officers that a group was looking for a reaction and got it. Not true, it was an indoor private meet.
Around 8 or 9 LEO's showed up, it was not good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9uq5mMRG6A
Lawyer Wanted
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/85326-my-negative-encounter-ocer-today.html
From a Law Enforcement Officers perspective: Not from our site
My negative encounter with an OC'er today.
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I do not know if this person is a member here or not.
I was working tonight, and stopped in at a local convenience store to get a cup of coffee and to check to make sure the place wasn't being robbed. As I pulled into the lot, I observed a guy walking around the back of the only other vehicle in the lot and walking into the store. I parked my police car, and saw that the other car's inspection was expired.
I walked in and got my cup of coffee and walked to the counter. I saw the guy was paying for food, and lo and behold, he's carrying a Smith and Wesson M&P. I wanted to ask him if a.) the trigger on that was like the Sigma, and b.) if that was his car, so I could let him know that his inspection was out.
I asked, very politely, "Excuse me, Sir, can I ask you a question?"
Out came the digital recorder. "Am I being detained?"
No, I tried to assure him. He then told me that if that was the case, he wasn't talking to me, and walked away. Even the clerk thought he was rude. The term the clerk used was "asshole." While I agreed to myself, all I said was, "He doesn't have to talk to me, that's fine." I paid for my coffee and left. The guy was back at the food counter waiting for his order.
I left, and parked across the street to see who was driving the car I saw. Sure enough, a few minutes later, here comes the gunstore commando, straight to his car, and out onto the roadway. I pulled him over.
That didn't go well, either. I identified myself by name and department, informed him that we were being recorded, as per state law, and he said, "That's fine, I'm recording, too." I asked for his driver's license, and he wanted to know why. I told him I'd explain that to him after I had obtained his license. He refused at first, until I asked him, again, very politely, "Sir, are you refusing to display your license, registration, and insurance card as is required by Section 6308 of the Pennsylvania Vehicle Code?" He then provided his information. I told him why he was being stopped and told him I'd be with him in a minute. I wrote out the ticket, and when I got back to his car, he asked me, "Can I tell you why I haven't gotten this done yet?"
I told him that I didn't want him to have to violate his Constitutional Rights by talking to me, and I had no desire to hear any explaination that he had. Then he asked me if "maybe he couldn't get a warning this time."
Really? Um... "Sir, that's what I was trying to talk to you about at the store, you know, when you decided that talking to me was beneath you. Sign here, please." I gave him his copy and away I started to walk. "Wait, can you explain this to me?" he asked.
"Sir, do you read, write and understand the English Language?" I asked. Yeah, he responded. "Then I'm not required, by law, to explain it to you. It's got instructions on the back. Pull out safely."
It got me thinking, and pissed. While I don't know, for sure, that he is a member here, it sure sounded like a textbook example of what some members here say on a daily basis. And when I first joined this site, I thought, "Great, a site with like-minded people who enjoy guns and are law-abiding and a group of people that I can talk to that won't think I'm nuts for carrying, owning, shooting, etc."
Then I joined. And since then, I've seen a double standard that would make most liberals wince in shame. I've seen members here that hate police, and bash them at every chance they get, for 'interfering' in their lives. But let them be the victim of a crime, and they expect instant response, automatic arrests, and full punishment to the extent of the law. However, let them be stopped, and whatever violation they've committed should be ignored because they are basically good people and it's a small thing anyway. That's why I usually only get onto the lounge forums anymore.
All I know is this: This encounter left a bad taste towards this one guy. I hope not all OC'ers are like this, but from what I've read on here, I guess this will be the rule instead of the exception.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39898&forum_id=46&highlight=detained
today was a pretty beautiful day, was it not? i''d been out today, to walk the dog, walk to the store for a drink, and just to walk. my brother got a call from the bank earlier, and he remembered he needed to change some information regarding his account. so, i decided to walk with him. he with his .357, me with my 1911.
he'd carried openly to his bank before, as have i, and never did a teller or bank manager ever take issue with it. it's Community Bank, if anyone's interested. we walked up Railroad Street, then turned right on Lackawanna Avenue. once he was done, we walked back. halfway down Railroad, we stopped at a gas station/car wash to buy cigarettes.
on our way down the street, we noticed a patrol car slowing past us. we watched as he parked, got out, and approached us. his name is Officer Uher.
in an instant, we were both surrounded by at least 6 uniforms. all, except for Uher, constantly changed position, so i could never get a clear look at their name tags. one of them, a red faced man in his late 40's, was particularly foul mouthed from the start, before either of us opened our mouths. for brevity, and because i can't tell who said what, i'll list the lines of bull@#$% we had thrown at us.
1. someone called about two guys with guns.
2. they have to investigate MWAG calls.
3. we are required to show ID if we have a gun.
4. they are within their rights to demand ID, to ascertain we are not felons.
5. we are @#$%s, looking for attention.
6. we are little boys trying to be big shots.
7. we are likely to shoot ourselves in the foot.
8. we are busting their balls for no reason.
9. they have the right to arrest us for failing to provide ID.
10. they are within their rights to take our LTCFs, send them to the sheriff, and have them revoked.
11. they can confiscate our guns, and we'll never get them back.
12. we are huge @#$%s, because showing ID is not such a big deal.
13.....this is the best one. the most awesomely, superbad, funky fresh best part. i said little throughout this exchange. every once in awhile, i'd interject with a statement of fact, citing a statute, or saying "whatever." when 2 of them insisted that i must have and show ID when asked for it, i reminded them that the Lackawanna County DA, Andy Jarbola, made a public statement, which was printed in the Scranton Times, saying although it's strange, people are not obligated to provide ID.
they, in their infinite wisdom, informed us that he was incorrect.
"yeah, because a beat cop knows state law better than the DA, who went to law school for 100 years."
i gave them my name, spelled it for them slowly, and told them they could call it in and check my identity. some of them continued to berate us, using foul language.
i want to go on record by saying that i never, throughout the exchange, used foul language. indeed, i barely spoke at all. i stood there, crossed arms, defiant, and stoic.
my brother, who stood behind me, smiled at them. one asked for his driver's ID. "sure, no problem," he said, grinning. the officer noticed his LTCF next to it.
"is that your concealed permit?"
"no. it's my license to carry a firearm."
"can i see it?"
"no," he said, closing his wallet.
the officer sneered. "@#$%ing @#$%."
i also reminded them that i had had this problem last summer, and after dealing with Lt. Thomas, i was assured that this sort of thing wouldn't happen again. i suggested they contact him. they mocked us, and said, "riiiiight."
i heard my name come back over their walkies, followed by a numerical code. i don't remember the numbers, but they all heard it, and just as soon as they surrounded us, they all abruptly turned around, and left, uttering vulgarities.
my biggest gripe was having half of them with their hands on their guns. that, and the fact that i was hungry, and was on my way to Burger King. their Garden Salads are @#$%ing deeeeeeeelish.
__________________
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39576&forum_id=12&highlight=detained
My friend and I were on our way back from a meet up at Walnut creek. We decided to go to the Martinez Wal mart to pick up a few things. We walked around for 20 minutes. Had a few people approach us and asked us questions, got a few dirty looks and a lot of people walked by with out noticing. On our way out, Martinez police showed up and asked if we were with open carry; we said yes. 2 officers performed checks our guns. We were complying with 12031(e) and the officers holstered our weapons. He told us that the manager has a no weapons policy. I told him we do respect private property rights and we left. We were already done with our shopping. When I left, I placed my gun in the back of my trunk in a locked container.
on my way home, I noticed 2 police cruisers tailing me. About half a mile down the road, they pulled me over and approached my car. The officer looks at me and says " I just checked you at Wal mart." he laughed and told me that my license plate bulb was out. He asked for my drivers license and insurance. He runs my info and lets me go with a warning. He asked me if my gun was still in my holster. I told him I have it in my trunk. He says that's fine and tells me to have a good night.
Should I have any fears of the DA trying to prosecute me now since the officer took my info during the traffic stop?
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39287&forum_id=55&highlight=detained
I found out last night that somebody had stolen my credit card information and was using it to spend a whole bunch of money down in Mexico. When I discovered this, with help from my bank, they told me I needed to file a fraud report with the sheriff's so they could reimburse me the money that was fraudulently spent. So, I went in this morning to the Peninsula Detachment of the Pierce County Sheriff's to file a fraud report.
I paid particular attention to my appearance so as to appear more credible (although it shouldn't matter, but we all know it does), button down shirt and gray slacks. As per my norm I was OCing my 1911.
When I reached the counter I told the receptionist what I needed to do and barely a second later a deputy opens the door next to the counter window(rather hastily) and says that I need to go put my gun back in my vehicle. I calmly state that I just need to file a fraud report and I would be on my way. I could see two more officers standing just through the door. One of those two officers says that they will not take my report until I go put my gun back in my truck. I ask if they're refusing to take my report.
At that time, one of them behind the counter draws his pistol and walks through the door with it pointed at me (very nice 1911 I might add), and the other one walks through the door with pistol drawn, but down at his side (glock maybe, couldn't tell). My heart starts racing a little at this point, but I still feel calm and can speak logically as I try to explain yet again that I'm just there to file a report of an actual crime.
The one with the gun pointed at me (yes, I have all there names but am witholding them for the time being), orders me to put my hands on the counter and the other one with pistol drawn relieves me of my pistol, wallet and stops for a while at the recorder in my pocket (yes it was recording ) but I don't think he could figure out what it was so he moved on.
After all that the officer said he would hold onto my gun while he was running the numbers. I tried to tell him that even during a legitimate detainment (this was obviously not a legitimate one) they could only seize the weapon for officer safety and not investigatory purposes. He smiled and walked off. At this point one of them sees the extra mags on my offside (don't know how they missed them the first time) and takes those as well.
Finally they deign to take my report. The first one that I spoke with comes back out and takes my report right there in the middle of the entrance, seems a little unprofessional in my opinion but I've never had to file a police report before and so, didn't know the procedure. I give them all the information I know about the fraud, they give me a case number to give to my bank and then walk me outside where they return my pistol and mags. One of them handed me back my wallet while inside.
So, now I have two problems/questions. I have to gather some additional information from my bank and turn it into the sheriff's, which means I have to go back to the department. Should I carry/not carry, OC/CC? I think I already know what I'm going to do but always love to hear others opinions as well. Also, I would usually not think twice about filing a complaint with the department and the officers, but seeing as how they're investigating the fraud for me, I'm wondering if filing a complaint would negatively effect my case and the ability to get my money reimbursed (which I need for rent). Thoughts or opinions?
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=38952&forum_id=12&highlight=detained
New year's day had been so far rather uneventful for myself and my wife. We slept in pretty late and didn't do much until later in the day. We'd been up late attending Travis Pastrana's world record jump, and then fishing. So when the afternoon neared a close, we headed out. She took the truck to run some errands, and to her folks place. I was in need of a good bicycle ride, so off I went. We would meet at the coffee shop later to sip some coffee or tea and regroup.
As I had been carrying alot lately, I had my trusty Beretta 92 comfortably in it's holster on my hip. With evening approaching and the temp just a little chilly out, I threw on a sweater. Before leaving the house, I do a quick "dress rehearsal" with the wife to ensure proper UOC clothing adjustment. (I do this pretty regularly) After some debate, we both agree it's just best to actually pull the sweater down under my belt (and thus behind the holster altogether) to avoid any concealment issues. In addition to this, a quick load check for any 12031 issues.
So after a nice ride, I meet with the wife at the coffee shop and we walk inside to get myself a white mocha and her a tea. Seated at an inside table are a couple of local security dicks who seem to be taking very close notice of me. This isn't the first time for this however, and I give a brief smile and nod to the one who seems to be staring the most. I figure why not try to be polite, despite the fact he's now looking at me like I'm covered with ants.
About the time we get our drinks and head out to the outdoor tables, we notice that this security dick is now talking nervously into his cellphone in hushed tones and glancing at me about every 2-3 seconds. My wife mentions it to me once we sit down, and I tell her I noticed as well, and that he's probably calling the Feds on me (or something sarcastic like that).
Well we sat for about 10 harassment-free minutes, talking with the other patrons and sipping the drinks. (Shockingly, none of them ran screaming at the sight of my pistol!) And then the LAPD shows up......
At this point I feel the need to clarify that while I believe these particular cops deserve every bit of public shame they have earned, my legal counsel advises against giving their real names YET. So for now, and for purposes of this posting, I'll just assign them names which fit their physical appearance. Fair enough?
The first two officers showed up in a fully marked LAPD cruiser. The car comes to a stop, and without bothering to pull to the curb, officers OJ and Sawed-off exit the car, walking in my direction. Aware of this, and anticipating a LEO encounter, I activate the audio recording function on my phone and set it on the table next to me. The 2 officers stop about 12' short of where I'm sitting. With their hands on their guns (also known as brandishing), they ask me to come over and talk to them for a second. The moment I get up, they both bark at me to put my hands on my head. I comply and the cuffs go on immediately, followed by OJ pulling my weapon from it's holster. I ask him why I'm in handcuffs when I've done nothing wrong.
OJ: "We got a call of a man with a gun."
MH: "Well there's nothing illegal about that."
OJ: "Yeah I understand that. I know who you are. We're just gonna verify everything and make sure it's not loaded."
MH: "Do you have reason to believe I've done something wrong?"
OJ: "I understand you're trying to bait me....."
MH: "I'm not trying to bait you, I'm just asking a question."
The audio gets a little bit lousy here for maybe 15 seconds. They move me to a bench nearby, and my wife bravely walks up and sets my phone down next to me because my dumb ass left it on the table. She then moves back a few feet and continues filming with her cellphone cam. OJ asks her to move further away.
MH: "She's with me."
OJ: "I understand that."
He sure says that alot for a guy who will likely claim much ignorance on this incident later on.
MH: "This camera is here , basically, just to keep you honest."
OJ: "I been on the job 23 years. I'm not gonna do anything wrong to you, O.K.?"
MH: "You've already DONE something wrong to me."
OJ: "Well you know what? Again, to verify and make sure everything's all Kosher, if everything's all good to go, you'll get your weapon back. No problem sir, alright?"
As of this posting, I haven't gotten it back. But hey, maybe he meant to add....."months later."
OJ: "But for my safe- my partner's safety, right, we're in here dealing with you, we don't need other parties standing by. She can record. I'm not stopping her from recording here. Am I?.......Do you have any I.D. on you sir?"
MH: "No."
OJ: "You got an I.D. to verify who you are?"
MH: "No."
Sawed-off: "What's your last name sir?"
MH: "I really don't feel like giving that information out."
OJ asks Sawed-off "Who's responding?" and then engages in some police jargon with some other party on the radio for a moment. I will also point out here that at this point I've figured out that officer OJ is a liar. He told me earlier on that he knew who I was, but is now demanding that I identify myself. WTF?
OJ: "Who does the weapon belong to?"
MH: "Me."
OJ: "O.K. do you have I.D.?"
This shyte is getting old. Either he's deaf, or is implying I'm as big a liar as himself.
MH: "No."
OJ: "O.K. so how can we verify who you are then? To run the gun and verify it's your weapon....."
MH: "Do you have a reason to believe I'm not who I said I am?"
Alright this doesn't make sense, but I was angry and nervous. Besides, he already knows who I am, right?
OJ: "But we don't even know who you are."
MH: "You know who I am. I haven't done anything wrong."
OJ: "Right now you're being detained for investigation."
MH: "For what?"
OJ: "Hmm?"
MH: "Into what crime?"
OJ: "Right now you have a gun, uh, like I said, I know you're a security guard, right?"
MH: "I'm not a security guard. And again, this is not a crime."
OJ: "You still have to have I.D. on you, to verify who you are."
MH: "No I don't."
OJ: "O.K., alright, so you're not gonna tell us your last name or anything?"
Silence
OJ: "You understand? People call saying a man's here with a gun, at the coffee shop, so that's why we're here."
A little fuzzy on the audio here for just a sec, but a sentence ending with "....describing you to a tee, so that's why we're here."
MH: "When you get a moment, can I get your business card?"
OJ: "Sure, I'll give you a business card."
Sawed-off puts one in my pocket. Long silence.
OJ: "Of course, you understand, as soon as we get called, we HAVE to investigate."
More unintelligible crap and something about a call they'd had some other time about some guy with a rifle.
OJ: "Again, if you're not gonna give us your information, we gotta investigate who you are. What if we run the gun and it comes back to someone else? And you gotta clear your name? Like I said, you cooperate with us, in and out."
Does anyone here read Stephen King? Remember the sheriff who didn't make any sense in Desperation??
OJ makes a quick phone call to inquire "who's on shift tonight". I suspect this is to figure out if it's someone who'll help him lie, as it seems he's trying to up the ante in his percieved "pissing contest". Another car shows up and out steps a large, unpleasant looking short-haired woman. She speaks with Sawed-off for a minute and then comes over to where they have me sitting.
Militia Etheridge: "How ya' doin' sir? Happy New Year."
MH: " Happy New Year."
To be honest, I'd have wished her a much lousier year, had I known that she too was trying to hose me.
Militia: "What's goin on today?"
MH: "Ask these two."
Militia: "No I'm asking you, I'm not asking them. All I know is we got a radio call of a man with a gun, and apparently you had a gun on you. Not loaded, I understand. Now where were you when the officers got here? In a car?"
MH: "No, the coffee shop."
Militia: "O.K. do you understand how people would percieve that? They look over, they see a guy- especially in these times, you know, newspapers with shootings and all this stuff. Can you see how that could be percieved as a threat? Some guy they don't know sitting in a coffee shop with a gun on his side?"
After this barrage of finger-wagging drivel, I simply stopped talking altogether. (I think I already spoke too much at that point anyways.) I mean, what could I possibly say to her? Hell, she sounded just like that lying ass officer OJ! I decided that anything I would've/could've said would be at least useless, or at most very unkind to this wildebeast of a woman. So I shut up.
Militia: "Hello?!"
Silence
Militia: "Do you understand how that could be percieved as a threat? They have somebody they don't know at a business, with a gun on their side. And we've got people out here getting shot, murdered, killed, whatever. They don't know who you are, sir. We're here because we got called here, O.K?.......... Are you refusing to answer my question? O.K., so you're gonna, uh, so basically you're uh, interfering with this investigation. 'Cause I'm telling you, you need to either cooperate or we're gonna take you to the station! O.K. is that what you choose to do?
Militia: (to the other officers) "O.K. we'll take him for 148."
Militia: "You're under arrest sir for interfering with my officers' investigation."
OJ: "Is this your phone sir?"
MH: "Yep."
OJ: "I'm gonna place it in your pockets right now." (puts it in my pocket) "Stand up."
MH: "Which station will I be taken to?"
Sawed-off: "Initially you'll be going to Harbor Station."
MH: (to my wife) "I'll be at Harbor Division."
Wife: (to LEOs) "What are the charges?"
Militia: "Interfering."
OJ: "148PC"
I'm gonna skip over the ride down there because it wasmostly uneventful and I'm tired of writing. So we get to the desk at the station and there sits a bald man with a mustache who is identified to me as the watch commander.
OJ: "We're gonna check with the watch commander. Since you refused your name, we have to book you as a John Doe."
MH: "Excuse me, didn't you say you'd dealt with me before?"
OJ: "I dealt with you after the fact."
The man at the desk turns his attention to us....
Gordon Liddy: "Hi."
MH: "Hi."
Gordon: "What are we here for?"
OJ: "Uh, refusing, we got a man with a gun call, he had a gun on his hip, unloaded, magazine in the well."
Gordon: "Magazine in the well??"
OJ: "Magazine in the well, not loaded though."
Gordon: "O.K."
OJ: "Um, didn't tell us who he is. Doesn't have no I.D. on him. Brought him in for 148."
Gordon: (to MH) "You understand you're not under arrest for the charge? There's no gun charge here. But since you refused to identify yourself......"
MH: "California is not a 'stop and identify' state. So what you're sayingis that you're harassing me just for not telling him (OJ) who I was?"
Gordon: "No no no. Based on the radio call, you were required to identify under the law. So if you would've cooperated, you would've been on your way. Now you're in here under investigation. That's why you're under arrest."
MH: "Excuse me, but I'm not REQUIRED to cooperate."
Gordon: "O.K. (to OJ) fill that out and I'll ask you some questions later."
OJ: "O.K. so you're not gonna tell us your name? Well then it's John doe."
Gordon: "Mr. John Doe, do you understand why you're being detained?"
MH: "Excuse me, I'm UNDER ARREST."
Gordon: "O.K. detained or arrested, whatever. Do you understand why you're being detained, Mr. John Doe?"
MH: "No."
Gordon: "As of right now you're being detained for interfering with a police investigation, and refusing to answer the officer's identification. Also I'll have to check on the fact that, if you have a magazine in the gunwell of the gun, even if it's empty I think that's illegal. You can have an empty weapon but you can't have a magazine placedin there. I'll have to research that and find out. So now do you understand?"
MH: "No."
Gordon: "Do you take medication?
MH: "Actually I do take, occasionally, methocarbamol."
Gordon Liddy gives me an annoyed, clueless look.
MH: "Carpal tunnel."
Gordon: "O.K. do you have any questions or concerns with this detention or arrest?"
MH: "I have MANY questions and concerns."
Gordon: "O.K. well ask."
MH: "No."
Gordon: "O.K. sir we'll be back with you. We'll call blah blah blah...."
So they take me into this little area, chain me to a bench, and I sit there for a few minutes. OJ and Sawed-off return and unhook me long enough to take everything I had on me except for shoes, shirt and pants. I looked at them a little funny when they asked for my shoelaces. Sawed-off explained that this was so I couldn't use them to hurt myself. So I said: "You know, I had a gun on me when you arrested me, right?" Sawed-off just looks at me like an ignorant little doe in the headlights.
I sit there for about 15 more minutes and OJ comes back again. This time he wants to argue about how I should have identified myself and cooperated with them and so on. So again, I inform him that I don't have to speak to them, ESPECIALLY if I'm the one being "investigated".He goes on some more with the same shyte and I ask him what country he was born in. He says this one, of course. I then ask him if he'd heard of the 5A. Again he starts the blathering, so I finally just tell him to either charge me or give it up! He then storms off like a child sent to bed without dinner.
Another 20 minutes or so go by and then I'm taken to a cell to rot for a while. I sit in there for what I estimate to be about 2 hours. (They took my watch) OJ comes back and says he's taking me down the hall for booking. I ask him what they're charging me with and he says 12025. Yes, apparently now he has 3 witnesses who will swear they "saw me carrying concealed". Not sure how that one works, but I'm guessing he doesn't either. I tell him in polite words that he knows as well as I do that he's full of shyte. Seems he IS familiar with the 5A however, because he opted to shut his lying, cowardly mouth at this point.
They booked me for 12025. I called my wife once I got access to a phone, and she arranged bail. When I was released around midnight, my wife tells me that some of the guys on OCDO had already started planning an OC event in support of me at the location in which I was arrested. I felt amazed and humbled by how quickly these guys had planned this event, as well as the outpouring of support from them and so many others on OCDO.
The next portion of this story (as many of you have already seen), is available forreading on here in a thread entitled "UOC event in San Pedro". I'm gonna stop this for now, as I'm a bit tired of typing this long-ass story. I will continue later with more post-jail segments of this in this thread. Also I'd just like to again thank everyone who had my back in this. I'm grateful.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39901&forum_id=36&highlight=detained
UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus
http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?p=84990&sid=a429b6c0da5cbb8e1fda139c2fca2b3c#p84990by MajorNickmo on Fri 05 Mar 2010 5:07 pm
Well, after OCin' for a year and a half at UVU (CC for three years), MWAG call went in to campus police...
I had just left a planning meeting with UVU student government for the upcoming Bob Bennett vs. Everyone else, Senatorial debate that our club is hosting, (April 2nd 12:00 @ UVU--shameless plug) when I took a ladder from the "Publicity Room" to adjust some of our club's banners that hang in the hallways. I was 15 feet from returning to the UVUSA offices when a VERY anxious cop approached me and very abruptly asked, "Can I see some I.D.?" So, not knowing whether I was required to show him I.D. or not while on campus, I complied and handed him my UVU ID and my CFP (I didn't think he was stopping me for carrying a ladder lol), then he said "No, I want your drivers license," and handed me back my UVU ID but he held on to my CFP. He then asked me why I had a gun on me and I said, "As a safety precaution, just like wearing my seatbelt." He then said, "No, why do you have it at school???" (meanwhile I'm holding a 10 foot ladder, wearing a heavy backpack and 2 FACULTY members walk by, say "hi" to me and two friends as well, ALL WHILE THIS COP IS BEHAVING LIKE HE IS ON THE VERGE OF TAZING ME!)
[It sucked because I was looking so incredibly guilty standing there in the hallway at the exact spot where all these people on campus whom I have told over and over again that OC is legal (with a CFP) and with whom I have built relationships of trust with about OCing, were seeing me be detained right where I interact with all of them on nearly a daily basis. GRRRR all that trust got thrown out the window today ]
Back on point: I told the cop, politely, that the reason I have a gun at school is because I am within my legal right to do so and because a majority of mass shootings have occurred on college campuses--and I don't want to be a victim. At this point, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, the cop was acting like he was just WAITING for me to make a wrong move or say something flippant so he would have an excuse to tackle me to the ground. I told him, AT LEAST THREE TIMES that it is completely legal for me to OC on UVU's campus because I have a CFP. He said he was going to give me a citation for disorderly conduct because they got a MWAG call and that I was absolutely wrong about OC on campus. At this point I started to get freaked out because the officer wasn't even allowing me to explain or use any logic, and his emotions were escalating VERY RAPIDLY. Thank goodness another officer arrived, who was much more level headed (but still didn't understand the law). Realizing that this wasn't going to be a 30 second stop, I remembered from reading previous threads on UCC.com that I should record any encounters with police. So I pulled out my iPhone, as casually as I could, and pressed record.
I apologize for the jumpiness at points in the video, I couldn't see if I was getting the officer's "in the shot" or not, and you might need to turn up the volume full blast to hear it all, I accidentally covered up the mic at times and I didn't get a shot of the first officer (the one that scared the crap out of me) but you can hear him speak up about charging me with disorderly conduct AND trespassing later on in the clip.
Now, I know that by posting this I am subjecting myself to public scorn and ridicule. I know there will be comments like, "Well, if it had been me, I would have said this..." and "You should have said this and this..." Please understand that I am a college student, nothing more, and that by the time I pressed record I was pretty shaken up by the first officer.
Looking back and listening to the clip I can think of at least a dozen different things that I wish I had said too...
Also understand, that when I did start recording, I was trying to deescalate a very tense situation that the previous officer had built up, and simply get the second officer to do most of the talking so I could have him put all of his opinions on the record, because the LAW was clearly no longer being discussed.
I know there are a lot of you on this forum who, when you hear some of the officers' comments, are going to pull your hair out...The recording starts with the second officer telling me that I'm giving OC "a bad name."
Before I post these videos, can I get in any kind of trouble for posting them???
Edit: Here are the links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjaQJs8eoMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzyYu9dhIY0
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44536&forum_id=25&highlight=arrested
I was getting out of the car with my family and i was parked directly across from some sort of LEO. The guy looked to be a retired Florence police officer and his car said FLORENCE VIP but didn't have a lightbar on the vehicle. I think he might have been a retired LEO but a supervisor as the security for the Florence Mall.
He approached me and asked if i was a LEO and i told him i was not, then he told me i would have to leave my firearm in the vehicle as the mall is private property and i was not allowed to carry inside.
I told him i had carried in here numerous times in the past week with no issue and he still told me that i could not go in with it. He started becoming a big jerk and decided to call Florence PD on me.
When the officer arrived he tried to tell him that my shirt covered the firearm and it was concealed and that i could be charged for that. Of course my shirt was not covering the firearm at any point but he sure wanted the LEO to think so.
He asked me for all kinds of information including my ID my SSN and everything you can imagine. He even went as far as to notice i had not yet changed my address on my license since i have recently moved and said one call from him and i would not even get a CCDW from this state.
The arriving Florence cop ended up telling me that i could not carry in the mall if they didn't want me to and i had to leave my firearm in the car. He advised me to leave my firearm in the car until i get my permit and i should not open carry it at all.
My first bad experience with open carrying so far and its really discouraging.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44161&forum_id=36&highlight=arrested
I met a male friend i went to high school with for lunch today at Del Taco in Summerlin. We got there around 12:30ish, and i had decided to wear a white shirt today, and was OCing my gun in an IWB holster. Pretty noticeable compared to my usual black. 2 girls (lets call them A and B) from the school we both graduated from came in on their lunch. Im almost 19, so i just graduated last year, i still know some of the people at my old school. Well, i saw one of them looking at us, but it looked like she was staring at my friend, not the gun, so i was thinking maybe she recognized him. She walked over to her friend who was 1 table down from us, and started whispering. I caught the gun word, but was not prepared for what happened next.
She (A) asked me if i have a license. I explained that i did not, and it was Nevada, and the 2nd amendment was all i needed. She told me i was wrong, and i needed a license. I once again assured her i did not, and her and the friend (A and B) moved across the restaurant to the other side. She(A) walked out front on her cell phone, and i told my male friend she was calling the cops, which was an accurate guess. While she was on the phone, i had a nice discussion with 2 other customers in line, who i was able to educate about the laws, and one of them owned pistols, just didnt know he could carry, said he was going to look into it. Another guy come over and whispered that the girl(A) was throwing a fit outside, and just wanted to let me know so i would be ready for what was coming.
Well some more kids from the school came in, and i knew a couple from one group, so they sat next to us. Another girl i knew came in(lets call her C), and started talking to the girl(A) that called me in. I called out her name to say hi, so she(C) came over and we talked a bit since i havent seen her in a while. It had been about 10-15 min after "A" ended her approx. 20 min phone call. My male friend and i sort of decided that dispatch must have calmed "A" down, and nobody was coming. Couple min later 1 metro officer pulls up, and walks in.
I rose my hand and said "Im over here to save you some time." He came over, told me I wasn't breaking any laws, and asked if i had my blue card on me, i said i did not. He acknowledged that i didnt need it, and started talking about how private property can ask you to leave, etc. and i said i know, but management had not talked to me. He started looking behind the counter and i said that girl(A) over there was just freaking out and must have called you. Hes still looking at the employees and asks which one, so i pointed her(A) out and his response was "Oh...she doesn't even work here?"
Well he walked over there, seems like "A" was arguing with him for a bit, and he came back, pulled up a chair next to me, and said that he told "A" it was legal, and asked if it would be ok with me if he verified registration. I wanted to make life easier for him, so i showed him the copy of my blue card and id, just because i could tell he didnt really want to be dealing with the stuck up high school girl(A). He didnt look at my gun, didnt disarm me, didnt even ask if it was the same as the one on the copy. I thanked him, and shook his hand, he walked over to "A", talked some more, and walked outside.
I finished eating shortly after, and stepped outside. One of the customers who i was talking to before was talking to him about the laws i told him about, and how he was going to start carrying. I joined in on the conversation, and the cop said that personally he feels its a stupid law, and that only cops should be armed, but the law is the law, and he has to deal with it. He then admitted to being from New York. He then reitterated that his personal opinion didnt matter, and he didnt have a problem with it as long as it was a law abiding citizen (kind of contradicting himself, but whatever).
The girl and the original friend that called me in then walked out(A and B), i told them to have a good day, and in response i was told to "F$%k off, we dont talk to strangers"
My friend(C) who was talking to"A" earlier, and came to say hi to me in the restaurant, had also joined us outside to talk to the officer. She later got yelled at by "A" for talking to me, and making her look like the bad guy. Well i found out from"C", that "A" is still enraged about the incident several hours later, and looked it up online, apparently the cop was wrong, or so she insists.
My old government teacher is going to bring it up tomorrow when he has "A" in his class. I think he is going to start talking about gun laws, and t
I’ve been reading some of the other members blogs in other states related to their encounters with citizens and law enforcement, and it’s really interesting on how members responded to each of the situation. Some responded well and some not so well, I’ve been reading them should I encounter the same set of circumstances so that I can be better prepared to respond. Here are some of the ones I found and the link to each, keep in mind these are from different states so the laws may be different then Wisconsin.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44674&forum_id=55&highlight=law+enforcement+officer
I had a scary encounter with a man at target in Everett today. Me and a friend were going shopping, talking about permits for certain states as he was curious. We get to the shoe section and he proceeds to go about his business. As I am looking at a pair of potential hiking shoes the man in question takes one look at my side and the following dialouge ensues (to the best of my knowledge):
Man: What is that? Points to my side
Me: Oh, that is my gun.
Man: What do you carry that around for?
Me: Personal protection sir, nothing more
Man: Don't you need a permit for that?
Me: No sir, Washington is an Open Carry State
Man: Really, are you a security guard or something, or just trying to be one?
Me: No sir, I am a normal citizen exercising my right to defend myself
Man: So if I started to scream and yell and threaten you what would you do?
Me: Walk away, no amount of verbal abuse constitutes the justification for use of lethal force
Man: What if I wanted to smack you upside the head for your lunacy
Me: I would report you to management and the police sir, my life would not be in danger.
Man: What would I have to do to get you to pull that thing
Me: You would have to pull a deadly weapon and even then I would have options before firing.
At this point I can tell he is displeased but the conversation remained civil, it didn't stay that way. A couple of other questions followed but then he gets crazy and starts saying quite loudly:
Man: Hey everyone this guy has a gun
Me: Sir could you please quiet down, I am minding my business
Man: You are trying to get people to come after you, you dont need that
Me: You don't know that sir and neither do I, and the one making a scene here is you, you are yelling and drawing attention not me.
Man: You are making a scene, you have a GUN!
Me: So, I am just going about my day
Man: With a GUN!
Me: Sir I have a right to protect myself
Man: I don't care, what about everyone else in here
Me: Sir, they don't have a problem, you do, now please I want to go about my business (I attempt to walk away, he follows and pulls a couple aside -- ass)
Man: Hey, you know he has a gun
Lady: Yea, so he's not bothering anyone. If he wants to protect himself that is his prerogative, you sir are the problem not him.
Me: Thank you ma'am have a nice day
Man: What the hell is your problem, you are being an idiot
Me: Sir leave me alone, I am within the law, I have every right to be here and you are starting to bother me
Man: hey people guy with a gun
Me: (s*#&, gotta leave, try to walk away again, he follows, I was being way too nice, but I HAD TO STAY CALM)
Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
Me: (put a firm grip on the handle, yanks away and steps back and exclaim loud enough to bring to attention that a serious situation is developing): "Hey get your hand off my gun"
Man: What, not allowed to touch it.
Me: You are lucky I have no desire to throw you in jail, now LEAVE!
Man: You are trying to be a man, I think you have a small dick
Me: If you want to talk to management or the police you are within your right to do so, you were out of line and I am not breaking the law.
Man: @#$% you man, I will talk to the cops
Me: fine have a nice day
(he finally leaves then calls over a store worker)
Employee: You ok, is there a problem
Me: ma'am, what is your store policy about open carry of firearms?
Employee: I don't think its allowed but I am not sure
Me: Ok, how would you like to proceed?
Employee: Lets go up to the front, I am not sure, but I will be calling the cops
Me: I will cooperate fully with you and law enforcement
Employee: Thank you, calls up a security officer
Security: Everything ok
By this time my nerves are frayed and details are sketchy, so I will give the short version: the security officer and the target employee call 911 who then surprisingly tell them that I am ok and within the law and have no problem with me carrying!! They also thanked me for staying calm and being informed about what i was doing, (thank you OCDO!!!!!!) The police were not dispatched and the man got away scott free, but the store was professional about their dealing with me and I told them as such and would be honored to participate in their business. (Oh, I did tell them that the idiot tried to grab my gun and he was being a disturbance and a potential threat to public safety.)
Thank you guys, all the hard work and study has paid off!
I will be in Lakewood tomorrow (still no internet, so feel free to respond, it will take a while to get to them)
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44735&forum_id=33&highlight=stopped+
Me and my friend Steev went shopping for a few things the othernight at about1:30 a.m. at eureka walmart. I have oc'ed there multiple times without incident. The only difference between this trip and the last few was that rather than being in and out we took some time to browse around. after gathering a few item we thouhgt that we would try and find some toys for steev's kids and went back to the toy section. Everything was just hunky-doory steev was browsing and I was playing with the new bop-it when to my front a eureka police officer approached me. The officer asked "what have you got there?" and gestured to my gun. I responded "My pistol.". Then the cop asked "Do you have an I.D.?". To which I replied "Am I being detained?". "No" was his response. I then told him if I was not beening detained that I didnt wish to provide I.D.. At which point two other officers approached from the rear and one witha very bad attitude and foul mouth raised his voice to say something along the lines of "Don't even start with that bulls**t produce you I.D.!". I tried to stay calm as I turned around to face him and said"This officer just told me that I am not being detained , so I dont have to produce and I.D.". He then made a threat to unlawfully detain me if I did'nt comply. Now once again it was about 1:30 a.m. and I didnt fell like getting drug out back and getting the sense kicked out of me so I chickened out and produced. They ran my name and I began explaining to them that they had no lwaful means to hinder me in my shopping and that I had done nothing wrong. They used the ooohh so common "we need to make sure your not a felon" excuse. As my name cleaared the rude officer gestured to ny pistol and asked what kind if holster I had, to which I responded "A cheap-o". He then in a very disrespectful and unproffessional statement told me " I could walk up behind you and grab that gun and blow your f***in brains out".
A they handed my liscense back I told the officer that we lived in America and that I dont have to produce I.D. upon demand. To which he replied "well vote democrat!" , and walked away with the 3rd officer.
The first cop stood around and chatted with me and gave me the regulare lecture. So I took it upon myself to inform himthat that shouldnt have happened. That the constitution garuantee's the right to be secure in my papers against unreasonable searches and seizures.
The whole thing made me sick!
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=43956&forum_id=33&highlight=stopped+
This is a video taken after meeting a couple of Friends for lunch. I was open carrying and walking down the sidewalkon main street St Charles Mo. I was detained and disarmedby St Charles police.
1st half http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkUj7CdOpTI
2nd half http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0EcFcFdZJc
Doc
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44274&forum_id=36&highlight=detained
So I was out of cigarettes and decided to walk two blocks to City Stop. On my way back I was about a quarter of the way when I see a car pull very slowly up to the curb going my direction, every time I got a little bit closer to the car the car pulled up a little farther ahead of me. I wasn't sure what was up so I crossed the street so I would have some distance between me and the car.
The car then stopped at the curb and as I walk by I see a man driving with his cell phone to his ear and a woman in the passenger seat, both of them with their eyes glued to me.
about 3 minutes later a metro cop drives by me then flips a Bitch and pulls up next to the curb about 20 feet ahead of me. He turns on his lights and announces over the PA for me to stop walking and keep my hands in view.
When he got out of the car he just walked up to me, asked for my ID which I said I would not give him, but stated my first middle and last name and that I was a Nevada resident. He then asked me why I was carrying a firearm to which I then stated that I would exercise my constitutional right to remain silent. He then went to his car and asked that I keep my hands in plain sight. While he's in the car the guy who called the cops drove up on the other side of the road, parked and got out of his car walking up on me very aggressively swearing and shouting that "My punk ass was going to go to jail" and "How dare I carry a gun in his neighborhood." At this point the police officer got out of his car and told him to be quiet and go stand in front of his car. He walked over to me and said, "Your name was clear of any wants or warrants, since you haven't broken any laws you are free to go."
Now as I'm walking away this guy who called the cops on me started in on the cop saying, "WTF, he's got a gun and your just going to let him go?" The police officer again told him that unless he wants to receive a citation to "Shut up and listen" and began to educate the guy on Nevada firearms laws. I don't know exactly what was said after that because I was too far away.
I do know this, I think Metro handled the situation fairly and professionally as I was only detained for about 5 minutes, he didn't disarm me or even handcuff me, they didn't grill me with questions, they didn't even ask for my blue card. I assume that's because I have a Nevada ID card and I have my firearms registered in Clark county that he could get my picture and registration info on his computer and see that I'm legit. I guess all he was concerned about was weather I was legally allowed to possess a firearm.
Funny, I think.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39159&forum_id=39&highlight=detained
This happened in December of 2008.
I had just gotten dropped off to my apartment by a friend; we had gotten back from the west side area about 25 miles away and were shooting some of our firearms. It was almost 5PM, and I had told a neighbor I worked with that I would look at her car because it had a check-engine light. Not 5 minutes after I got dropped off, I had my toolbox in hand walking down my street, with my .45 still in its holster, carrying openly on the street.
Keep in mind, I live in the warzone, just north of Central avenue, and we've had a bit of police activity in the area but not on my particular street.
My neighbor lives 6 houses down, and owns a car identical to mine. I knocked on her door and I proceeded to look at her car. Maybe 10 minutes into the diagnosis, with my head under the hood of her car, I noticed a police cruiser rolled by her house very slowly, heading southbound. A small thought occurred to me, as I had carried open up the street to my neighbor's house...
Nah, probably isn't for me, I thought.
I then realized I was missing a tool necessary to remove a part. I told her I needed to go back home to get it. She said she would go with me.
So we start walking down the street.
Another cop car, this time a Sergeant's SUV, comes rolling around the corner, heading northbound. The southbound cruiser had turned around and started following the police SUV.
Aw, damnit, I thought, telling my neighbor "these guys are probably for me, don't worry about it, my paperwork is legit-" as she knew I had a CCW.
"Ok," she said, kind of smiling but I could tell she was a little unsure.
All of a sudden, a third cruiser was heading southbound on my street, and with the other two units they had boxed us in. A big (and I mean big as in fat) sergeant with a nice looking Kimber .45 and an attitude steps up to me with his gun drawn, as well as the other officers drawing their own duty pieces:
"HANDS ON YOUR HEAD, ON YOUR F*CKING KNEES!!!!"
So, needless to say, my 50 year old neighbor and myself were on our knees, hands on our heads, in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of the street, with ALL OF THE NEIGHBORS ON THE STREET looking at us, staring at three police officers with their guns drawn. The sergeant was standing maybe 3 feet from me, his .45 aimed directly at my head.
And I was smiling... SMILING!!
"I don't know you, man! I don't know you!" the sergeant bellowed to me, not liking the fact I was smiling at him. I wanted to laugh so hard!
A female officer had taken my .45 out of my fobus holster, ejecting the mag and unchambering the firearm.
"Why are you carrying a gun?" the sergeant yelled at me.
"Open carry is legal in New Mexico," I replied.
"Where do you live?" the sergeant continued-
I weakly pointed with my right hand over my left shoulder to my apartment, which was maybe 100 yards away, "right over there..." I said, still smiling.
Somewhere in the process, my wallet with my CCW and DL came out, and both verified my current address. In New Mexico, if your CCW doesn't have the current address, you can be fined $500 and possibly spend a month in jail. It's very worth mailing your CCW to NMDPS with the $5 transfer fee when you move to another house or apartment, simply to save yourself from this predicament if it ever happens to you.
"Why are you carrying a gun in the warzone?" said the third officer, another male, with not quite as much attitude as his superior officer had.
"Open carry is legal in New Mexico," I stated again.
Do these guys get it? I'm legal! I said to myself.
Not to mention, it IS the warzone, why NOT carry a gun?
After more questions I don't exactly remember, and stating that NM is an open carry state at least three times, I was given my firearm back, empty of course, and basically let go. My CCW matched my DL in regards to the living address, and there was nothing they could hold me on. My neighbor and I had started walking down the street, and when I knew all of the cops were back in their cars, I reloaded my handgun, chambered a round, and put my .45 back in its holster.
God Bless New Mexico and its open carry laws
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/13080.html
I wasat a Fourth of July community gathering in Snoqualmie.
So, the first guy comes up and asked me why I'm open carrying. I told him I had many reasons, but one was to educate others as to the legality of open carry in Washington State, and offered him a pamphlet which he refused.Then he shows me his ID (sorry, I didn't note which department),and says he knows it's my right, but I shouldn't do it around kids, and that I was not prepared for a gun grab.
He says, "I could have taken your gun from you, and put a bullet in your head just now."
I asked, "Do I need to worry about that from you?" No answer. I asked again. Still no answer. I didn't have my recorder on, because the were in off- duty.
The discussion went on for ten more minutes, and he was joined by his LEO friend. Neither one of them wanted a pamphlet from me. I don't think I changed their minds, but about twenty people around us heard the discussion, and saw me asserting my rights unashamedly. I enjoyed that!
I love the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the United States of America! Happy Fourth of July everyone!
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=41243&forum_id=43&highlight=detained
As some of you are aware I hosted an OC meet at a private location (my church) on 3/15.
The meet was fun, there where 12 of us in all which is pretty good for a first time meet.
As we where finishing up my son & his GF and thier 1 year old baby where the first to leave. They where parked about 30 or 40 ft from the door.
Police swarm in, put himup against thier vehicle, handcuff himand take his gun & begin a background check. Thier resoning was because he was walking around with a gun in a "known drug area".
I went out to see what was going on and an officer takes a hold of my arm and guides me to the middle of the road & steals my gun & knife. This is where the short video starts (there is a lot more video, but this makes the point)
NOTE FROM VIDEO:
At about 18 seconds: After someone mentions taking my gun, the officers reply is "we got it secured right now until we figure out why he is walking around with a gun"
around 23 seconds or so: "when we see a guy with a gun we are going to check it out"
25-30 sec. The guy with his hands behind his back with officers is my son in handcuffs & gun taken (stolen). He had literally walked out with his girlfriend and 1 year old baby when the police stopped and cuffed him.
1min 15-18 seconds: I say I am being forced to "show" ID & officer Fleming says "yes you are or you are going to jail". There is no Ohio law that says you have to "show" a physical ID. I tried to tell him I would tell him my info, but that was not good enough.
2min 13 sec I say I was forced to produce ID & Officer say "Officer Fleming forced you " and when I press for what crime they answer for carrying a gun.
The next day an e-mail is sent out to all sworn officers that a group was looking for a reaction and got it. Not true, it was an indoor private meet.
Around 8 or 9 LEO's showed up, it was not good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9uq5mMRG6A
Lawyer Wanted
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/85326-my-negative-encounter-ocer-today.html
From a Law Enforcement Officers perspective: Not from our site
My negative encounter with an OC'er today.
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I do not know if this person is a member here or not.
I was working tonight, and stopped in at a local convenience store to get a cup of coffee and to check to make sure the place wasn't being robbed. As I pulled into the lot, I observed a guy walking around the back of the only other vehicle in the lot and walking into the store. I parked my police car, and saw that the other car's inspection was expired.
I walked in and got my cup of coffee and walked to the counter. I saw the guy was paying for food, and lo and behold, he's carrying a Smith and Wesson M&P. I wanted to ask him if a.) the trigger on that was like the Sigma, and b.) if that was his car, so I could let him know that his inspection was out.
I asked, very politely, "Excuse me, Sir, can I ask you a question?"
Out came the digital recorder. "Am I being detained?"
No, I tried to assure him. He then told me that if that was the case, he wasn't talking to me, and walked away. Even the clerk thought he was rude. The term the clerk used was "asshole." While I agreed to myself, all I said was, "He doesn't have to talk to me, that's fine." I paid for my coffee and left. The guy was back at the food counter waiting for his order.
I left, and parked across the street to see who was driving the car I saw. Sure enough, a few minutes later, here comes the gunstore commando, straight to his car, and out onto the roadway. I pulled him over.
That didn't go well, either. I identified myself by name and department, informed him that we were being recorded, as per state law, and he said, "That's fine, I'm recording, too." I asked for his driver's license, and he wanted to know why. I told him I'd explain that to him after I had obtained his license. He refused at first, until I asked him, again, very politely, "Sir, are you refusing to display your license, registration, and insurance card as is required by Section 6308 of the Pennsylvania Vehicle Code?" He then provided his information. I told him why he was being stopped and told him I'd be with him in a minute. I wrote out the ticket, and when I got back to his car, he asked me, "Can I tell you why I haven't gotten this done yet?"
I told him that I didn't want him to have to violate his Constitutional Rights by talking to me, and I had no desire to hear any explaination that he had. Then he asked me if "maybe he couldn't get a warning this time."
Really? Um... "Sir, that's what I was trying to talk to you about at the store, you know, when you decided that talking to me was beneath you. Sign here, please." I gave him his copy and away I started to walk. "Wait, can you explain this to me?" he asked.
"Sir, do you read, write and understand the English Language?" I asked. Yeah, he responded. "Then I'm not required, by law, to explain it to you. It's got instructions on the back. Pull out safely."
It got me thinking, and pissed. While I don't know, for sure, that he is a member here, it sure sounded like a textbook example of what some members here say on a daily basis. And when I first joined this site, I thought, "Great, a site with like-minded people who enjoy guns and are law-abiding and a group of people that I can talk to that won't think I'm nuts for carrying, owning, shooting, etc."
Then I joined. And since then, I've seen a double standard that would make most liberals wince in shame. I've seen members here that hate police, and bash them at every chance they get, for 'interfering' in their lives. But let them be the victim of a crime, and they expect instant response, automatic arrests, and full punishment to the extent of the law. However, let them be stopped, and whatever violation they've committed should be ignored because they are basically good people and it's a small thing anyway. That's why I usually only get onto the lounge forums anymore.
All I know is this: This encounter left a bad taste towards this one guy. I hope not all OC'ers are like this, but from what I've read on here, I guess this will be the rule instead of the exception.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39898&forum_id=46&highlight=detained
today was a pretty beautiful day, was it not? i''d been out today, to walk the dog, walk to the store for a drink, and just to walk. my brother got a call from the bank earlier, and he remembered he needed to change some information regarding his account. so, i decided to walk with him. he with his .357, me with my 1911.
he'd carried openly to his bank before, as have i, and never did a teller or bank manager ever take issue with it. it's Community Bank, if anyone's interested. we walked up Railroad Street, then turned right on Lackawanna Avenue. once he was done, we walked back. halfway down Railroad, we stopped at a gas station/car wash to buy cigarettes.
on our way down the street, we noticed a patrol car slowing past us. we watched as he parked, got out, and approached us. his name is Officer Uher.
in an instant, we were both surrounded by at least 6 uniforms. all, except for Uher, constantly changed position, so i could never get a clear look at their name tags. one of them, a red faced man in his late 40's, was particularly foul mouthed from the start, before either of us opened our mouths. for brevity, and because i can't tell who said what, i'll list the lines of bull@#$% we had thrown at us.
1. someone called about two guys with guns.
2. they have to investigate MWAG calls.
3. we are required to show ID if we have a gun.
4. they are within their rights to demand ID, to ascertain we are not felons.
5. we are @#$%s, looking for attention.
6. we are little boys trying to be big shots.
7. we are likely to shoot ourselves in the foot.
8. we are busting their balls for no reason.
9. they have the right to arrest us for failing to provide ID.
10. they are within their rights to take our LTCFs, send them to the sheriff, and have them revoked.
11. they can confiscate our guns, and we'll never get them back.
12. we are huge @#$%s, because showing ID is not such a big deal.
13.....this is the best one. the most awesomely, superbad, funky fresh best part. i said little throughout this exchange. every once in awhile, i'd interject with a statement of fact, citing a statute, or saying "whatever." when 2 of them insisted that i must have and show ID when asked for it, i reminded them that the Lackawanna County DA, Andy Jarbola, made a public statement, which was printed in the Scranton Times, saying although it's strange, people are not obligated to provide ID.
they, in their infinite wisdom, informed us that he was incorrect.
"yeah, because a beat cop knows state law better than the DA, who went to law school for 100 years."
i gave them my name, spelled it for them slowly, and told them they could call it in and check my identity. some of them continued to berate us, using foul language.
i want to go on record by saying that i never, throughout the exchange, used foul language. indeed, i barely spoke at all. i stood there, crossed arms, defiant, and stoic.
my brother, who stood behind me, smiled at them. one asked for his driver's ID. "sure, no problem," he said, grinning. the officer noticed his LTCF next to it.
"is that your concealed permit?"
"no. it's my license to carry a firearm."
"can i see it?"
"no," he said, closing his wallet.
the officer sneered. "@#$%ing @#$%."
i also reminded them that i had had this problem last summer, and after dealing with Lt. Thomas, i was assured that this sort of thing wouldn't happen again. i suggested they contact him. they mocked us, and said, "riiiiight."
i heard my name come back over their walkies, followed by a numerical code. i don't remember the numbers, but they all heard it, and just as soon as they surrounded us, they all abruptly turned around, and left, uttering vulgarities.
my biggest gripe was having half of them with their hands on their guns. that, and the fact that i was hungry, and was on my way to Burger King. their Garden Salads are @#$%ing deeeeeeeelish.
__________________
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39576&forum_id=12&highlight=detained
My friend and I were on our way back from a meet up at Walnut creek. We decided to go to the Martinez Wal mart to pick up a few things. We walked around for 20 minutes. Had a few people approach us and asked us questions, got a few dirty looks and a lot of people walked by with out noticing. On our way out, Martinez police showed up and asked if we were with open carry; we said yes. 2 officers performed checks our guns. We were complying with 12031(e) and the officers holstered our weapons. He told us that the manager has a no weapons policy. I told him we do respect private property rights and we left. We were already done with our shopping. When I left, I placed my gun in the back of my trunk in a locked container.
on my way home, I noticed 2 police cruisers tailing me. About half a mile down the road, they pulled me over and approached my car. The officer looks at me and says " I just checked you at Wal mart." he laughed and told me that my license plate bulb was out. He asked for my drivers license and insurance. He runs my info and lets me go with a warning. He asked me if my gun was still in my holster. I told him I have it in my trunk. He says that's fine and tells me to have a good night.
Should I have any fears of the DA trying to prosecute me now since the officer took my info during the traffic stop?
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39287&forum_id=55&highlight=detained
I found out last night that somebody had stolen my credit card information and was using it to spend a whole bunch of money down in Mexico. When I discovered this, with help from my bank, they told me I needed to file a fraud report with the sheriff's so they could reimburse me the money that was fraudulently spent. So, I went in this morning to the Peninsula Detachment of the Pierce County Sheriff's to file a fraud report.
I paid particular attention to my appearance so as to appear more credible (although it shouldn't matter, but we all know it does), button down shirt and gray slacks. As per my norm I was OCing my 1911.
When I reached the counter I told the receptionist what I needed to do and barely a second later a deputy opens the door next to the counter window(rather hastily) and says that I need to go put my gun back in my vehicle. I calmly state that I just need to file a fraud report and I would be on my way. I could see two more officers standing just through the door. One of those two officers says that they will not take my report until I go put my gun back in my truck. I ask if they're refusing to take my report.
At that time, one of them behind the counter draws his pistol and walks through the door with it pointed at me (very nice 1911 I might add), and the other one walks through the door with pistol drawn, but down at his side (glock maybe, couldn't tell). My heart starts racing a little at this point, but I still feel calm and can speak logically as I try to explain yet again that I'm just there to file a report of an actual crime.
The one with the gun pointed at me (yes, I have all there names but am witholding them for the time being), orders me to put my hands on the counter and the other one with pistol drawn relieves me of my pistol, wallet and stops for a while at the recorder in my pocket (yes it was recording ) but I don't think he could figure out what it was so he moved on.
After all that the officer said he would hold onto my gun while he was running the numbers. I tried to tell him that even during a legitimate detainment (this was obviously not a legitimate one) they could only seize the weapon for officer safety and not investigatory purposes. He smiled and walked off. At this point one of them sees the extra mags on my offside (don't know how they missed them the first time) and takes those as well.
Finally they deign to take my report. The first one that I spoke with comes back out and takes my report right there in the middle of the entrance, seems a little unprofessional in my opinion but I've never had to file a police report before and so, didn't know the procedure. I give them all the information I know about the fraud, they give me a case number to give to my bank and then walk me outside where they return my pistol and mags. One of them handed me back my wallet while inside.
So, now I have two problems/questions. I have to gather some additional information from my bank and turn it into the sheriff's, which means I have to go back to the department. Should I carry/not carry, OC/CC? I think I already know what I'm going to do but always love to hear others opinions as well. Also, I would usually not think twice about filing a complaint with the department and the officers, but seeing as how they're investigating the fraud for me, I'm wondering if filing a complaint would negatively effect my case and the ability to get my money reimbursed (which I need for rent). Thoughts or opinions?
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=38952&forum_id=12&highlight=detained
New year's day had been so far rather uneventful for myself and my wife. We slept in pretty late and didn't do much until later in the day. We'd been up late attending Travis Pastrana's world record jump, and then fishing. So when the afternoon neared a close, we headed out. She took the truck to run some errands, and to her folks place. I was in need of a good bicycle ride, so off I went. We would meet at the coffee shop later to sip some coffee or tea and regroup.
As I had been carrying alot lately, I had my trusty Beretta 92 comfortably in it's holster on my hip. With evening approaching and the temp just a little chilly out, I threw on a sweater. Before leaving the house, I do a quick "dress rehearsal" with the wife to ensure proper UOC clothing adjustment. (I do this pretty regularly) After some debate, we both agree it's just best to actually pull the sweater down under my belt (and thus behind the holster altogether) to avoid any concealment issues. In addition to this, a quick load check for any 12031 issues.
So after a nice ride, I meet with the wife at the coffee shop and we walk inside to get myself a white mocha and her a tea. Seated at an inside table are a couple of local security dicks who seem to be taking very close notice of me. This isn't the first time for this however, and I give a brief smile and nod to the one who seems to be staring the most. I figure why not try to be polite, despite the fact he's now looking at me like I'm covered with ants.
About the time we get our drinks and head out to the outdoor tables, we notice that this security dick is now talking nervously into his cellphone in hushed tones and glancing at me about every 2-3 seconds. My wife mentions it to me once we sit down, and I tell her I noticed as well, and that he's probably calling the Feds on me (or something sarcastic like that).
Well we sat for about 10 harassment-free minutes, talking with the other patrons and sipping the drinks. (Shockingly, none of them ran screaming at the sight of my pistol!) And then the LAPD shows up......
At this point I feel the need to clarify that while I believe these particular cops deserve every bit of public shame they have earned, my legal counsel advises against giving their real names YET. So for now, and for purposes of this posting, I'll just assign them names which fit their physical appearance. Fair enough?
The first two officers showed up in a fully marked LAPD cruiser. The car comes to a stop, and without bothering to pull to the curb, officers OJ and Sawed-off exit the car, walking in my direction. Aware of this, and anticipating a LEO encounter, I activate the audio recording function on my phone and set it on the table next to me. The 2 officers stop about 12' short of where I'm sitting. With their hands on their guns (also known as brandishing), they ask me to come over and talk to them for a second. The moment I get up, they both bark at me to put my hands on my head. I comply and the cuffs go on immediately, followed by OJ pulling my weapon from it's holster. I ask him why I'm in handcuffs when I've done nothing wrong.
OJ: "We got a call of a man with a gun."
MH: "Well there's nothing illegal about that."
OJ: "Yeah I understand that. I know who you are. We're just gonna verify everything and make sure it's not loaded."
MH: "Do you have reason to believe I've done something wrong?"
OJ: "I understand you're trying to bait me....."
MH: "I'm not trying to bait you, I'm just asking a question."
The audio gets a little bit lousy here for maybe 15 seconds. They move me to a bench nearby, and my wife bravely walks up and sets my phone down next to me because my dumb ass left it on the table. She then moves back a few feet and continues filming with her cellphone cam. OJ asks her to move further away.
MH: "She's with me."
OJ: "I understand that."
He sure says that alot for a guy who will likely claim much ignorance on this incident later on.
MH: "This camera is here , basically, just to keep you honest."
OJ: "I been on the job 23 years. I'm not gonna do anything wrong to you, O.K.?"
MH: "You've already DONE something wrong to me."
OJ: "Well you know what? Again, to verify and make sure everything's all Kosher, if everything's all good to go, you'll get your weapon back. No problem sir, alright?"
As of this posting, I haven't gotten it back. But hey, maybe he meant to add....."months later."
OJ: "But for my safe- my partner's safety, right, we're in here dealing with you, we don't need other parties standing by. She can record. I'm not stopping her from recording here. Am I?.......Do you have any I.D. on you sir?"
MH: "No."
OJ: "You got an I.D. to verify who you are?"
MH: "No."
Sawed-off: "What's your last name sir?"
MH: "I really don't feel like giving that information out."
OJ asks Sawed-off "Who's responding?" and then engages in some police jargon with some other party on the radio for a moment. I will also point out here that at this point I've figured out that officer OJ is a liar. He told me earlier on that he knew who I was, but is now demanding that I identify myself. WTF?
OJ: "Who does the weapon belong to?"
MH: "Me."
OJ: "O.K. do you have I.D.?"
This shyte is getting old. Either he's deaf, or is implying I'm as big a liar as himself.
MH: "No."
OJ: "O.K. so how can we verify who you are then? To run the gun and verify it's your weapon....."
MH: "Do you have a reason to believe I'm not who I said I am?"
Alright this doesn't make sense, but I was angry and nervous. Besides, he already knows who I am, right?
OJ: "But we don't even know who you are."
MH: "You know who I am. I haven't done anything wrong."
OJ: "Right now you're being detained for investigation."
MH: "For what?"
OJ: "Hmm?"
MH: "Into what crime?"
OJ: "Right now you have a gun, uh, like I said, I know you're a security guard, right?"
MH: "I'm not a security guard. And again, this is not a crime."
OJ: "You still have to have I.D. on you, to verify who you are."
MH: "No I don't."
OJ: "O.K., alright, so you're not gonna tell us your last name or anything?"
Silence
OJ: "You understand? People call saying a man's here with a gun, at the coffee shop, so that's why we're here."
A little fuzzy on the audio here for just a sec, but a sentence ending with "....describing you to a tee, so that's why we're here."
MH: "When you get a moment, can I get your business card?"
OJ: "Sure, I'll give you a business card."
Sawed-off puts one in my pocket. Long silence.
OJ: "Of course, you understand, as soon as we get called, we HAVE to investigate."
More unintelligible crap and something about a call they'd had some other time about some guy with a rifle.
OJ: "Again, if you're not gonna give us your information, we gotta investigate who you are. What if we run the gun and it comes back to someone else? And you gotta clear your name? Like I said, you cooperate with us, in and out."
Does anyone here read Stephen King? Remember the sheriff who didn't make any sense in Desperation??
OJ makes a quick phone call to inquire "who's on shift tonight". I suspect this is to figure out if it's someone who'll help him lie, as it seems he's trying to up the ante in his percieved "pissing contest". Another car shows up and out steps a large, unpleasant looking short-haired woman. She speaks with Sawed-off for a minute and then comes over to where they have me sitting.
Militia Etheridge: "How ya' doin' sir? Happy New Year."
MH: " Happy New Year."
To be honest, I'd have wished her a much lousier year, had I known that she too was trying to hose me.
Militia: "What's goin on today?"
MH: "Ask these two."
Militia: "No I'm asking you, I'm not asking them. All I know is we got a radio call of a man with a gun, and apparently you had a gun on you. Not loaded, I understand. Now where were you when the officers got here? In a car?"
MH: "No, the coffee shop."
Militia: "O.K. do you understand how people would percieve that? They look over, they see a guy- especially in these times, you know, newspapers with shootings and all this stuff. Can you see how that could be percieved as a threat? Some guy they don't know sitting in a coffee shop with a gun on his side?"
After this barrage of finger-wagging drivel, I simply stopped talking altogether. (I think I already spoke too much at that point anyways.) I mean, what could I possibly say to her? Hell, she sounded just like that lying ass officer OJ! I decided that anything I would've/could've said would be at least useless, or at most very unkind to this wildebeast of a woman. So I shut up.
Militia: "Hello?!"
Silence
Militia: "Do you understand how that could be percieved as a threat? They have somebody they don't know at a business, with a gun on their side. And we've got people out here getting shot, murdered, killed, whatever. They don't know who you are, sir. We're here because we got called here, O.K?.......... Are you refusing to answer my question? O.K., so you're gonna, uh, so basically you're uh, interfering with this investigation. 'Cause I'm telling you, you need to either cooperate or we're gonna take you to the station! O.K. is that what you choose to do?
Militia: (to the other officers) "O.K. we'll take him for 148."
Militia: "You're under arrest sir for interfering with my officers' investigation."
OJ: "Is this your phone sir?"
MH: "Yep."
OJ: "I'm gonna place it in your pockets right now." (puts it in my pocket) "Stand up."
MH: "Which station will I be taken to?"
Sawed-off: "Initially you'll be going to Harbor Station."
MH: (to my wife) "I'll be at Harbor Division."
Wife: (to LEOs) "What are the charges?"
Militia: "Interfering."
OJ: "148PC"
I'm gonna skip over the ride down there because it wasmostly uneventful and I'm tired of writing. So we get to the desk at the station and there sits a bald man with a mustache who is identified to me as the watch commander.
OJ: "We're gonna check with the watch commander. Since you refused your name, we have to book you as a John Doe."
MH: "Excuse me, didn't you say you'd dealt with me before?"
OJ: "I dealt with you after the fact."
The man at the desk turns his attention to us....
Gordon Liddy: "Hi."
MH: "Hi."
Gordon: "What are we here for?"
OJ: "Uh, refusing, we got a man with a gun call, he had a gun on his hip, unloaded, magazine in the well."
Gordon: "Magazine in the well??"
OJ: "Magazine in the well, not loaded though."
Gordon: "O.K."
OJ: "Um, didn't tell us who he is. Doesn't have no I.D. on him. Brought him in for 148."
Gordon: (to MH) "You understand you're not under arrest for the charge? There's no gun charge here. But since you refused to identify yourself......"
MH: "California is not a 'stop and identify' state. So what you're sayingis that you're harassing me just for not telling him (OJ) who I was?"
Gordon: "No no no. Based on the radio call, you were required to identify under the law. So if you would've cooperated, you would've been on your way. Now you're in here under investigation. That's why you're under arrest."
MH: "Excuse me, but I'm not REQUIRED to cooperate."
Gordon: "O.K. (to OJ) fill that out and I'll ask you some questions later."
OJ: "O.K. so you're not gonna tell us your name? Well then it's John doe."
Gordon: "Mr. John Doe, do you understand why you're being detained?"
MH: "Excuse me, I'm UNDER ARREST."
Gordon: "O.K. detained or arrested, whatever. Do you understand why you're being detained, Mr. John Doe?"
MH: "No."
Gordon: "As of right now you're being detained for interfering with a police investigation, and refusing to answer the officer's identification. Also I'll have to check on the fact that, if you have a magazine in the gunwell of the gun, even if it's empty I think that's illegal. You can have an empty weapon but you can't have a magazine placedin there. I'll have to research that and find out. So now do you understand?"
MH: "No."
Gordon: "Do you take medication?
MH: "Actually I do take, occasionally, methocarbamol."
Gordon Liddy gives me an annoyed, clueless look.
MH: "Carpal tunnel."
Gordon: "O.K. do you have any questions or concerns with this detention or arrest?"
MH: "I have MANY questions and concerns."
Gordon: "O.K. well ask."
MH: "No."
Gordon: "O.K. sir we'll be back with you. We'll call blah blah blah...."
So they take me into this little area, chain me to a bench, and I sit there for a few minutes. OJ and Sawed-off return and unhook me long enough to take everything I had on me except for shoes, shirt and pants. I looked at them a little funny when they asked for my shoelaces. Sawed-off explained that this was so I couldn't use them to hurt myself. So I said: "You know, I had a gun on me when you arrested me, right?" Sawed-off just looks at me like an ignorant little doe in the headlights.
I sit there for about 15 more minutes and OJ comes back again. This time he wants to argue about how I should have identified myself and cooperated with them and so on. So again, I inform him that I don't have to speak to them, ESPECIALLY if I'm the one being "investigated".He goes on some more with the same shyte and I ask him what country he was born in. He says this one, of course. I then ask him if he'd heard of the 5A. Again he starts the blathering, so I finally just tell him to either charge me or give it up! He then storms off like a child sent to bed without dinner.
Another 20 minutes or so go by and then I'm taken to a cell to rot for a while. I sit in there for what I estimate to be about 2 hours. (They took my watch) OJ comes back and says he's taking me down the hall for booking. I ask him what they're charging me with and he says 12025. Yes, apparently now he has 3 witnesses who will swear they "saw me carrying concealed". Not sure how that one works, but I'm guessing he doesn't either. I tell him in polite words that he knows as well as I do that he's full of shyte. Seems he IS familiar with the 5A however, because he opted to shut his lying, cowardly mouth at this point.
They booked me for 12025. I called my wife once I got access to a phone, and she arranged bail. When I was released around midnight, my wife tells me that some of the guys on OCDO had already started planning an OC event in support of me at the location in which I was arrested. I felt amazed and humbled by how quickly these guys had planned this event, as well as the outpouring of support from them and so many others on OCDO.
The next portion of this story (as many of you have already seen), is available forreading on here in a thread entitled "UOC event in San Pedro". I'm gonna stop this for now, as I'm a bit tired of typing this long-ass story. I will continue later with more post-jail segments of this in this thread. Also I'd just like to again thank everyone who had my back in this. I'm grateful.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=39901&forum_id=36&highlight=detained
UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus
http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?p=84990&sid=a429b6c0da5cbb8e1fda139c2fca2b3c#p84990by MajorNickmo on Fri 05 Mar 2010 5:07 pm
Well, after OCin' for a year and a half at UVU (CC for three years), MWAG call went in to campus police...
I had just left a planning meeting with UVU student government for the upcoming Bob Bennett vs. Everyone else, Senatorial debate that our club is hosting, (April 2nd 12:00 @ UVU--shameless plug) when I took a ladder from the "Publicity Room" to adjust some of our club's banners that hang in the hallways. I was 15 feet from returning to the UVUSA offices when a VERY anxious cop approached me and very abruptly asked, "Can I see some I.D.?" So, not knowing whether I was required to show him I.D. or not while on campus, I complied and handed him my UVU ID and my CFP (I didn't think he was stopping me for carrying a ladder lol), then he said "No, I want your drivers license," and handed me back my UVU ID but he held on to my CFP. He then asked me why I had a gun on me and I said, "As a safety precaution, just like wearing my seatbelt." He then said, "No, why do you have it at school???" (meanwhile I'm holding a 10 foot ladder, wearing a heavy backpack and 2 FACULTY members walk by, say "hi" to me and two friends as well, ALL WHILE THIS COP IS BEHAVING LIKE HE IS ON THE VERGE OF TAZING ME!)
[It sucked because I was looking so incredibly guilty standing there in the hallway at the exact spot where all these people on campus whom I have told over and over again that OC is legal (with a CFP) and with whom I have built relationships of trust with about OCing, were seeing me be detained right where I interact with all of them on nearly a daily basis. GRRRR all that trust got thrown out the window today ]
Back on point: I told the cop, politely, that the reason I have a gun at school is because I am within my legal right to do so and because a majority of mass shootings have occurred on college campuses--and I don't want to be a victim. At this point, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, the cop was acting like he was just WAITING for me to make a wrong move or say something flippant so he would have an excuse to tackle me to the ground. I told him, AT LEAST THREE TIMES that it is completely legal for me to OC on UVU's campus because I have a CFP. He said he was going to give me a citation for disorderly conduct because they got a MWAG call and that I was absolutely wrong about OC on campus. At this point I started to get freaked out because the officer wasn't even allowing me to explain or use any logic, and his emotions were escalating VERY RAPIDLY. Thank goodness another officer arrived, who was much more level headed (but still didn't understand the law). Realizing that this wasn't going to be a 30 second stop, I remembered from reading previous threads on UCC.com that I should record any encounters with police. So I pulled out my iPhone, as casually as I could, and pressed record.
I apologize for the jumpiness at points in the video, I couldn't see if I was getting the officer's "in the shot" or not, and you might need to turn up the volume full blast to hear it all, I accidentally covered up the mic at times and I didn't get a shot of the first officer (the one that scared the crap out of me) but you can hear him speak up about charging me with disorderly conduct AND trespassing later on in the clip.
Now, I know that by posting this I am subjecting myself to public scorn and ridicule. I know there will be comments like, "Well, if it had been me, I would have said this..." and "You should have said this and this..." Please understand that I am a college student, nothing more, and that by the time I pressed record I was pretty shaken up by the first officer.
Looking back and listening to the clip I can think of at least a dozen different things that I wish I had said too...
Also understand, that when I did start recording, I was trying to deescalate a very tense situation that the previous officer had built up, and simply get the second officer to do most of the talking so I could have him put all of his opinions on the record, because the LAW was clearly no longer being discussed.
I know there are a lot of you on this forum who, when you hear some of the officers' comments, are going to pull your hair out...The recording starts with the second officer telling me that I'm giving OC "a bad name."
Before I post these videos, can I get in any kind of trouble for posting them???
Edit: Here are the links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjaQJs8eoMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzyYu9dhIY0
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44536&forum_id=25&highlight=arrested
I was getting out of the car with my family and i was parked directly across from some sort of LEO. The guy looked to be a retired Florence police officer and his car said FLORENCE VIP but didn't have a lightbar on the vehicle. I think he might have been a retired LEO but a supervisor as the security for the Florence Mall.
He approached me and asked if i was a LEO and i told him i was not, then he told me i would have to leave my firearm in the vehicle as the mall is private property and i was not allowed to carry inside.
I told him i had carried in here numerous times in the past week with no issue and he still told me that i could not go in with it. He started becoming a big jerk and decided to call Florence PD on me.
When the officer arrived he tried to tell him that my shirt covered the firearm and it was concealed and that i could be charged for that. Of course my shirt was not covering the firearm at any point but he sure wanted the LEO to think so.
He asked me for all kinds of information including my ID my SSN and everything you can imagine. He even went as far as to notice i had not yet changed my address on my license since i have recently moved and said one call from him and i would not even get a CCDW from this state.
The arriving Florence cop ended up telling me that i could not carry in the mall if they didn't want me to and i had to leave my firearm in the car. He advised me to leave my firearm in the car until i get my permit and i should not open carry it at all.
My first bad experience with open carrying so far and its really discouraging.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=44161&forum_id=36&highlight=arrested
I met a male friend i went to high school with for lunch today at Del Taco in Summerlin. We got there around 12:30ish, and i had decided to wear a white shirt today, and was OCing my gun in an IWB holster. Pretty noticeable compared to my usual black. 2 girls (lets call them A and B) from the school we both graduated from came in on their lunch. Im almost 19, so i just graduated last year, i still know some of the people at my old school. Well, i saw one of them looking at us, but it looked like she was staring at my friend, not the gun, so i was thinking maybe she recognized him. She walked over to her friend who was 1 table down from us, and started whispering. I caught the gun word, but was not prepared for what happened next.
She (A) asked me if i have a license. I explained that i did not, and it was Nevada, and the 2nd amendment was all i needed. She told me i was wrong, and i needed a license. I once again assured her i did not, and her and the friend (A and B) moved across the restaurant to the other side. She(A) walked out front on her cell phone, and i told my male friend she was calling the cops, which was an accurate guess. While she was on the phone, i had a nice discussion with 2 other customers in line, who i was able to educate about the laws, and one of them owned pistols, just didnt know he could carry, said he was going to look into it. Another guy come over and whispered that the girl(A) was throwing a fit outside, and just wanted to let me know so i would be ready for what was coming.
Well some more kids from the school came in, and i knew a couple from one group, so they sat next to us. Another girl i knew came in(lets call her C), and started talking to the girl(A) that called me in. I called out her name to say hi, so she(C) came over and we talked a bit since i havent seen her in a while. It had been about 10-15 min after "A" ended her approx. 20 min phone call. My male friend and i sort of decided that dispatch must have calmed "A" down, and nobody was coming. Couple min later 1 metro officer pulls up, and walks in.
I rose my hand and said "Im over here to save you some time." He came over, told me I wasn't breaking any laws, and asked if i had my blue card on me, i said i did not. He acknowledged that i didnt need it, and started talking about how private property can ask you to leave, etc. and i said i know, but management had not talked to me. He started looking behind the counter and i said that girl(A) over there was just freaking out and must have called you. Hes still looking at the employees and asks which one, so i pointed her(A) out and his response was "Oh...she doesn't even work here?"
Well he walked over there, seems like "A" was arguing with him for a bit, and he came back, pulled up a chair next to me, and said that he told "A" it was legal, and asked if it would be ok with me if he verified registration. I wanted to make life easier for him, so i showed him the copy of my blue card and id, just because i could tell he didnt really want to be dealing with the stuck up high school girl(A). He didnt look at my gun, didnt disarm me, didnt even ask if it was the same as the one on the copy. I thanked him, and shook his hand, he walked over to "A", talked some more, and walked outside.
I finished eating shortly after, and stepped outside. One of the customers who i was talking to before was talking to him about the laws i told him about, and how he was going to start carrying. I joined in on the conversation, and the cop said that personally he feels its a stupid law, and that only cops should be armed, but the law is the law, and he has to deal with it. He then admitted to being from New York. He then reitterated that his personal opinion didnt matter, and he didnt have a problem with it as long as it was a law abiding citizen (kind of contradicting himself, but whatever).
The girl and the original friend that called me in then walked out(A and B), i told them to have a good day, and in response i was told to "F$%k off, we dont talk to strangers"
My friend(C) who was talking to"A" earlier, and came to say hi to me in the restaurant, had also joined us outside to talk to the officer. She later got yelled at by "A" for talking to me, and making her look like the bad guy. Well i found out from"C", that "A" is still enraged about the incident several hours later, and looked it up online, apparently the cop was wrong, or so she insists.
My old government teacher is going to bring it up tomorrow when he has "A" in his class. I think he is going to start talking about gun laws, and t