Going to talk with the Autauga County Sheriff in the morning.

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Eye95

I don't see anywhere in Alabama law where unloaded in the trunk is a legal way to carry a pistol without a license.

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The people who write our laws must not have taken English from the teachers I had. Run-on sentences make it hard to understand them sometimes. If you read those run-on sentences carefully and then break them down into phrases, the meaning becomes clearer:



Example:

Section 13A-11-74

License to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person - Exceptions.

The provisions of Section 13A-11-73 shall not apply to ...

[irrelevant passages excluded]

... any person permitted by law to possess a pistol while carrying it unloaded in a secure wrapper,

- from the place of purchase to his home or place of business,

- or to or from a place of repair

- or in moving from one place of abode or business to another

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[extremely long run-on-sentence broken down into phrases for clarity]



"or in moving from one place of abode or business to another"means just about anywhere the way I read it.

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49er wrote:

Eye95

I don't see anywhere in Alabama law where unloaded in the trunk is a legal way to carry a pistol without a license.

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The people who write our laws must not have taken English from the teachers I had. Run-on sentences make it hard to understand them sometimes. If you read those run-on sentences carefully and then break them down into phrases, the meaning becomes clearer:



Example:

Section 13A-11-74

License to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person - Exceptions.

The provisions of Section 13A-11-73 shall not apply to ...

[irrelevant passages excluded]

... any person permitted by law to possess a pistol while carrying it unloaded in a secure wrapper,

- from the place of purchase to his home or place of business,

- or to or from a place of repair

- or in moving from one place of abode or business to another

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[extremely long run-on-sentence broken down into phrases for clarity]



"or in moving from one place of abode or business to another"means just about anywhere the way I read it.

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Since, earlier in the context, the law is talking about "his" home or business, it is reasonable to assume that "one place of abode or business" is referring to one of his places of abode or business. This provision exists to allow one to carry his pistol from home to his business and back.

I suspect that any court will see it this way. One should see it another way at his own peril.

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This provision exists to allow one to carry his pistol from home to his business and back.

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If that were stated in the law, I would agree. But it is not. Courts acting in their proper role do not add such thingsto the law when it is not there. The "separation of powers clause" forbidsjudges to legislate.

The clear language of the law allows one to move from one place of abode or business to another in a vehicle with the unloaded pistol wrapped in a secure wrapper without a pistol license. It does not say "his place of abode or business to another".

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Here's and example of what I'm talking about eye95:



Alabama Supreme Court

January 13, 2006

CITY OF BESSEMER ET AL.
v.
E.B. MCCLAIN ET AL.

... This Court has also recognized:

"The fundamental rule of construction is to ascertain and give effect to the intent of the legislature in enacting the statute. Words used in a statute must be given their natural, plain, ordinary, and commonly understood meaning, and where plain language is used a court is bound to interpret that language to mean exactly what it says. If the language of the statute is unambiguous, then there is no room for judicial construction and the clearly expressed intent of the legislature must be given effect."

IMED Corp. v. Systems Eng'g Assocs., 602 So. 2d 344, 346 (Ala. 1992). See also Alabama Farm Bureau Mutual Casualty Insurance Co. v. City of Hartselle, 460 So. 2d at 1223, in which the Court stated:

"[T]he intention of the legislature must primarily be determined from the language of the statute itself if it is unambiguous, and clearly expressed intent must be given effect without room for interpretation. Words used in the statute must be given their natural, plain, ordinary, and commonly understood meaning."

(Citations omitted.) ...

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Kurbinator,

... Whether a police officer believes that is brandishing is another matter.

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What is the significance of "brandishing" a weapon? Is this some trumped-up charge akin to "disturbing the peace" that may be used to discourage open-carry? I don't find it in the Code of Alabama, and there are few references to it in the case law I have access to, none of which apply to the situtation you described.

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49er wrote:

What is the significance of "brandishing" a weapon? Is this some trumped-up charge akin to "disturbing the peace" that may be used to discourage open-carry? I don't find it in the Code of Alabama, and there are few references to it in the case law I have access to, none of which apply to the situtation you described.

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It is my belief that an officer, either harassing or "looking for a charge" ("make your own case"), might arrest a person lawfully carrying in the process of disarming and making safe a handgun for transport as required when the possessor of the firearm does not have a concealed carry license.

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In interpretation of the phrase "moving from one place of abode or business to another" I believe eye95 has the right interpretation. Look atit this way:

movingfrom one place of abode to another

It strikes me that the most reasonable interpretaion of this phrase would be that of a person who is changing a place of residence. It could be that a person has a 2nd home, and I would think this would apply there are well.

moving from one place of business to another

It strikes me thatthis refers to a business owner. Consider someone who may have a chain of stores. This would allow them to move from one to the other during the day or week without need of a license.

I would argue for these interpretations because of two things, one's conducting business such as paying bills or grocery shopping is not the same as having a place of business, as the later implies a location for the selling of wares, goods, trade expertice, etc.

As well, to allow the concealed carry of an unloaded firearm in a secure wrapper by anyone without a license, is lethal to the intent of the law, which would seem to be at minimum insuring that those persons carrying concealed weapons are persons society would deem "not of ill characteror of evil intent". Read "State v Reid" and 13A-11-50 (this would have been the statue Sheriff Reid was charged under for carring a concealed weapon)

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John,

As well, to allow the concealed carry of an unloaded firearm in a secure wrapper by anyone without a license, is lethal to the intent of the law..

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The intent of the law is to prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons without thesheriff approving it first. An unloaded firearm in a secure wrapper is not much of a weapon. I fail to see how allowing such firearms to be carried from one place to another is lethal to the intent of the law. It is certainly in harmony with federal law.

Reading the passage "... or in moving from one place of abode or business to another" without adding or subtracting words ishow the courtsare bound todecidethe intent. As our SupremeCourt stated: "Words used in a statute must be given their natural, plain, ordinary, and commonly understood meaning, and where plain language is used a court is bound to interpret that language to mean exactly what it says."

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49er wrote:

Here's and example of what I'm talking about eye95:



Alabama Supreme Court

January 13, 2006

CITY OF BESSEMER ET AL.
v.
E.B. MCCLAIN ET AL.

... This Court has also recognized:

"The fundamental rule of construction is to ascertain and give effect to the intent of the legislature in enacting the statute. Words used in a statute must be given their natural, plain, ordinary, and commonly understood meaning, and where plain language is used a court is bound to interpret that language to mean exactly what it says. If the language of the statute is unambiguous, then there is no room for judicial construction and the clearly expressed intent of the legislature must be given effect."

IMED Corp. v. Systems Eng'g Assocs., 602 So. 2d 344, 346 (Ala. 1992). See also Alabama Farm Bureau Mutual Casualty Insurance Co. v. City of Hartselle, 460 So. 2d at 1223, in which the Court stated:

"[T]he intention of the legislature must primarily be determined from the language of the statute itself if it is unambiguous, and clearly expressed intent must be given effect without room for interpretation. Words used in the statute must be given their natural, plain, ordinary, and commonly understood meaning."

(Citations omitted.) ...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

My point was that the plain reading, in context, is one's own abode and one's own place of business. Again, I'd bet my freedom on the court using context to assign meaning. Are you willing to bet your freedom that they'd read it the way you do?

More to the point, are you willing to bet the freedom of someone else reading your post?

Folks, you are allowed to carry a pistol in your home, in any fashion you choose without a permit. You can carry a pistol in your own place of business in any fashion you choose without a permit. The point of the law is to allow you to move the weapon between these two places without a permit. If you read it any other way, you will have placed yourself at the mercy of law enforcement and the courts. Barring someone finding a court ruling to the contrary, I don't recommend routinely carrying in your car without a permit.

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Me: Yes sir. (provide him my ID out of courtesy) (he writes down name and DL #)

Weak...so weak...

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codename_47 wrote:

Me: Yes sir. (provide him my ID out of courtesy) (he writes down name and DL #)

Weak...so weak...

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"Oh, officer, I'm going to need your badge number and name."

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The problem here is that Alabama is a "may issue" state and not a "shall issue" state. This gives the Sheriff a lot of leeway when it comes to your CCW permit. The number one thing that we need to do in Alabama to protect our rights is to get legislation passed that will make our state a "shall issue."

Right now, your Sheriff can pull your permit for any reason what-so-ever. The State Constitution gives him that right. In fact, he doesn't even have to issue it to you in the first place. Without the permit, open-carry is virtually useless since you'd be limited to carrying only as far as you can walk. Once you get into a vehicle without a permit, you are breaking the law.

Here's the interim solution to keep from having your permit pulled by an activist Sheriff: Head down to Florida. Florida is a shall issue state that also issues permits to non-residents. Apply for a permit from Florida. Since Alabama recognized reciprocity with Florida, you can evade having your permit pulled by the local sheriff in Autauga County.

The Florida permit is more expensive, but it's valid for 5 years. You also have to provide some proof that you have received safety training with firearms. Also: Some states won't recognize reciprocity with the non-resident FL CCW permit (Colorado, Michigan, New Hampshire, S. Carolina...) But you do get reciprocity with some other States that the Alabama permit alone won't give you (Delaware, Kansas, New Mexico, Ohio, Virginia, Washington, W. Virginia...)

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Is a non-resident permit valid in Alabama for an Alabama resident? Some states do not recognize NR pemits for residents so be sure before trying that.

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PT111 wrote:

Is a non-resident permit valid in Alabama for an Alabama resident? Some states do not recognize NR pemits for residents so be sure before trying that.

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Me thinks you are correct sir.

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Monkeytown wrote:

PT111 wrote:

Is a non-resident permit valid in Alabama for an Alabama resident? Some states do not recognize NR pemits for residents so be sure before trying that.

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Me thinks you are correct sir.

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Section 13A-11-85 Reciprocity for licenses issued in other states.

(a) A person licensed to carry a handgun in any state whose laws recognize and give effect in that state to a license issued under the laws of the State of Alabama shall be authorized to carry a handgun in this state. This section shall apply to a licenseholder from another state only while the licenseholder is not a resident of this state.

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Sorry, but if you are a resident of Alabama, you must have an Alabama CPL to CC.

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Jialto:

That is a very cunning solution to the 'May Issue' nature of Alabama Pistol Permit Law.

However..., I fear that once Local Law Enforcement caught what was going on, although Legal, it would not win you any friends, Politically, in Town.

Open Carry is great..., if you will Walk everywhere you go!

aadvark

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eye95 wrote:

Section 13A-11-85 Reciprocity for licenses issued in other states.

(a) A person licensed to carry a handgun in any state whose laws recognize and give effect in that state to a license issued under the laws of the State of Alabama shall be authorized to carry a handgun in this state. This section shall apply to a licenseholder from another state only while the licenseholder is not a resident of this state.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but if you are a resident of Alabama, you must have an Alabama CPL to CC.

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Good point eye95. Perhaps what we need is some brave souls in the state legislature to pass a resolution recognizing that the Alabama Constitution does not expressly prohibit law abiding citizens from carrying openly. Passing a "resolution" should be much simpler than passing legislation, especially considering that no further legislation is needed, just education for LEOs.

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Right now, your Sheriff can pull your permit for any reason what-so-ever. The State Constitution gives him that right. In fact, he doesn't even have to issue it to you in the first place. Without the permit, open-carry is virtually useless since you'd be limited to carrying only as far as you can walk. Once you get into a vehicle without a permit, you are breaking the law.

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The state constitution gives him that right??? I don't think so.

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49er wrote:

Right now, your Sheriff can pull your permit for any reason what-so-ever. The State Constitution gives him that right. In fact, he doesn't even have to issue it to you in the first place. Without the permit, open-carry is virtually useless since you'd be limited to carrying only as far as you can walk. Once you get into a vehicle without a permit, you are breaking the law.

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The state constitution gives him that right??? I don't think so.

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Actually, the sheriff needs a reason to pull the permit.

Section 13A-11-75

License to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person - Issuance; term; form; fee; revocation.

...The sheriff may revoke a license upon proof that the licensee is not a proper person to be licensed.

Click to expand...

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The point is that if the Sheriff in a county issues a conditional license and you violate the terms of those conditions, then, by default, you are a "not a proper person to be licensed."

An activist Sheriff could issue you a CC license with the stipulation that as long as you possess the license you do not engage in open carry. While open carry is legal in Alabama, doing so would void the terms of your CC license without technically violating your right to open carry.