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Thread: South haven court case

  1. #1
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    On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:36 AM,
    Joel E. Fulton sent a message using the contact form at http://www.michiganopencarry.org/contact.

    On September 13th, 2009 during an Open Carry Picnic at the beach in South Haven, Jonathan Sager experienced an unintentional discharge of his firearm while unloading it for proper transportation before leaving the picnic for the day. Someone called the police and they arrested Mr. Sager and subsequently charged him with wreckless discharge of a firearm. Mr. Sager hired Battle Creek Attorney Joe Eldred to defend him and refused to take any plea. Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

    On September 13th, 2009 during an Open Carry Picnic at the beach in South Haven, Jonathan Sager experienced an unintentional discharge of his firearm while unloading it for proper transportation before leaving the picnic for the day. Someone called the police and they arrested Mr. Sager and subsequently charged him with wreckless discharge of a firearm. Mr. Sager hired Battle Creek Attorney Joe Eldred to defend him and refused to take any plea. Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Very nice thanks for posting this Cabman!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    cabman1 wrote:
    On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:36 AM,
    Joel E. Fulton sent a message using the contact form at http://www.michiganopencarry.org/contact.

    On September 13th, 2009 during an Open Carry Picnic at the beach in South Haven, Jonathan Sager experienced an unintentional discharge of his firearm while unloading it for proper transportation before leaving the picnic for the day. Someone called the police and they arrested Mr. Sager and subsequently charged him with wreckless discharge of a firearm. Mr. Sager hired Battle Creek Attorney Joe Eldred to defend him and refused to take any plea. Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

    Proof to all the haters and doubters that I'm not an idiot.

  4. #4
    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    I for one am not a "HATER" but am curious about what caused the discharge. I am a consumate 1911 guy and know very little about "Poly Guns". Did you ever figure out what caused it. I am also glad your a safe handler of firearms and had it pointed in a safe direction......
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    i have to admit i have had an accidental discharge but i had it pointed in a safe direction. big difference between irresponsible and a conscious accident.

    Devery

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    cabman1 wrote:
    Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.
    Can someone communicate to our "go-to" Michigan attorneys (Greenblatt andDulan . . . and anyone else?) to ensure their awarenessof Mr. Fulton, in case his expertise would be useful at trial? I don't have their email addresses.

    Also, is Joe Eldred a good attorney to add to my phone list of firearms-related defense attorneys? If so, what's his number?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    bigdaddyj wrote:
    cabman1 wrote:
    On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:36 AM,
    Joel E. Fulton sent a message using the contact form at http://www.michiganopencarry.org/contact.

    On September 13th, 2009 during an Open Carry Picnic at the beach in South Haven, Jonathan Sager experienced an unintentional discharge of his firearm while unloading it for proper transportation before leaving the picnic for the day. Someone called the police and they arrested Mr. Sager and subsequently charged him with wreckless discharge of a firearm. Mr. Sager hired Battle Creek Attorney Joe Eldred to defend him and refused to take any plea. Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

    Proof to all the haters and doubters that I'm not an idiot.
    I hope you don't think that everyone thinks your an idiot. I'm glad you were found not guilty and i'm glad your competent enough that even an AD caused no injury because you were handling it correctly.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    DanM wrote:
    cabman1 wrote:
    Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.
    Can someone communicate to our "go-to" Michigan attorneys (Greenblatt andDulan . . . and anyone else?) to ensure their awarenessof Mr. Fulton, in case his expertise would be useful at trial? I don't have their email addresses.

    Also, is Joe Eldred a good attorney to add to my phone list of firearms-related defense attorneys? If so, what's his number?
    Yes Dan, Joe Eldred is a good attorney. He helped me a great deal. He didnt pull any punches. As far as Joel Fulton goes, I had purchased both of my XD40's from him and even took my CPL class through him. Joe was actually refered to me by Joel the day I took the class.

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    detroit_fan wrote:
    bigdaddyj wrote:
    cabman1 wrote:
    On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:36 AM,
    Joel E. Fulton sent a message using the contact form at http://www.michiganopencarry.org/contact.

    On September 13th, 2009 during an Open Carry Picnic at the beach in South Haven, Jonathan Sager experienced an unintentional discharge of his firearm while unloading it for proper transportation before leaving the picnic for the day. Someone called the police and they arrested Mr. Sager and subsequently charged him with wreckless discharge of a firearm. Mr. Sager hired Battle Creek Attorney Joe Eldred to defend him and refused to take any plea. Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

    Proof to all the haters and doubters that I'm not an idiot.
    I hope you don't think that everyone thinks your an idiot. I'm glad you were found not guilty and i'm glad your competent enough that even an AD caused no injury because you were handling it correctly.
    I don't think everyone thinks I'm an idiot. But there are a few people on here that like to talk **** and judge. If this would have happened to them they wouldn't talk so much ****. And for them to judge and talk **** about something that they didn't see orabout someone they don't knowis just ignorant. I wish that these ignorant people had the balls to say the **** to MY FACE, instead of being a coward and saying it with the protection of a computer.

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    detroit_fan wrote:
    bigdaddyj wrote:
    cabman1 wrote:
    On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:36 AM,
    Joel E. Fulton sent a message using the contact form at http://www.michiganopencarry.org/contact.

    On September 13th, 2009 during an Open Carry Picnic at the beach in South Haven, Jonathan Sager experienced an unintentional discharge of his firearm while unloading it for proper transportation before leaving the picnic for the day. Someone called the police and they arrested Mr. Sager and subsequently charged him with wreckless discharge of a firearm. Mr. Sager hired Battle Creek Attorney Joe Eldred to defend him and refused to take any plea. Attorney Joe Eldred tapped Joel Fulton, co-owner of Southside Sportsman Club and Freedom Firearms, as an expert witness on firearms handling and gun safety. After a full day of testimony in this misdemeanor case, it took the jury just twenty minutes to select a jury foreman and come back with a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

    Proof to all the haters and doubters that I'm not an idiot.
    I hope you don't think that everyone thinks your an idiot. I'm glad you were found not guilty and i'm glad your competent enough that even an AD caused no injury because you were handling it correctly.
    I don't think everyone thinks I'm an idiot. But there are a few people on here that like to talk @#$% and judge. If this would have happened to them they wouldn't talk so much @#$%. And for them to judge and talk @#$% about something that they didn't see orabout someone they don't knowis just ignorant. I wish that these ignorant people had the balls to say the @#$% to MY FACE, instead of being a coward and saying it with the protection of a computer.





    sorry puter was screwing up.

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    If you had bought a Glock you would never have had a faulty safety...

    food for thought.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If you had bought a Glock you would never have had a faulty safety...

    food for thought.
    the XD has an extra safety that the glock does not.

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    bigdaddyj wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If you had bought a Glock you would never have had a faulty safety...

    food for thought.
    the XD has an extra safety that the glock does not.
    I'm saying if the safety was at fault... then there you go.

    Glock = no safety, less parts to cause you to get harassed by cops.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If you had bought a Glock you would never have had a faulty safety...

    food for thought.
    Perhaps....but man are they UGLY.



























    And you stink.

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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If you had bought a Glock you would never have had a faulty safety...

    food for thought.
    Perhaps....but man are they UGLY.

    And you stink.
    Hey, it was an honest observation.

  16. #16
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    bigdaddyj wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If you had bought a Glock you would never have had a faulty safety...

    food for thought.
    the XD has an extra safety that the glock does not.
    Well it didn't work, did it?

    Accidents happen, and if it was the fault of the gun, that's definitely not cool. I was going to get an XD, but I'm steering clear now. That's the last thing I need. I'll stick with my Glocks I guess.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    I carry an XD 40 24/7, the gun is not the problem. I dont think you are an idiot either.

    The problem is in this idiotic law that does not recognise the RKBA, or your private property (vehicle), which causes people like you and I to handle our guns several times a day, in public, in order to transport our guns from here to there. this was bound to happen sooner or later.

    Im glad you stood your ground, both here and in court.

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    malignity wrote:
    bigdaddyj wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    If you had bought a Glock you would never have had a faulty safety...

    food for thought.
    the XD has an extra safety that the glock does not.
    Well it didn't work, did it?

    Accidents happen, and if it was the fault of the gun, that's definitely not cool. I was going to get an XD, but I'm steering clear now. That's the last thing I need. I'll stick with my Glocks I guess.
    Youre right
    Glocks have never had an accidental discharge....
    and you'll avoid a gun because of one case of an accidental discharge?
    Ok so if thats how you base what youll buy...
    no:
    Glocks
    Springfields
    Tauruses
    1911's or vairants
    Sig Sauer
    Sigarm
    Smith and wessons
    Rugers
    Berettas
    Para
    AR15 or Variants
    Ak47 or variants
    any bolt action rifle
    any lever action rifle
    any semi automatic rifle
    any single shot rifle
    any pump action rifle
    any pump action shotgun
    any semi auto shotgun
    any side by side shotgun
    any over under shotgun
    any pump action shotgun
    any single shot shot gun
    any lever action shotgun


    I know i missed some guns but this is just a good list for you to avoid based on what makes you decide you wont buy a gun(1 accidental discharge) and is for your own safety.


  19. #19
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    bigdaddyj wrote:
    Yes Dan, Joe Eldred is a good attorney. He helped me a great deal. He didnt pull any punches.
    Good to know. I've been wondering if there was a good attorney that was well versed in firearms law in Battle Creek. I'll have to add his number to my phone.

    Glad everything worked out ok for you in the end. It's a shame anybody has to go through crap like this.

    Did Sprinfield ever tell you what was wrong with the gun or did they just fix/replace it?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    bigdaddyj wrote:
    Proof to all the haters and doubters that I'm not an idiot.
    Did you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber?

    If not, please explain what happened. Thank you.

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    bsf wrote:
    bigdaddyj wrote:
    Proof to all the haters and doubters that I'm not an idiot.
    Did you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber?

    If not, please explain what happened.* Thank you.
    Bad ammo? Ultra sensitive primer?

    -Richard-

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    hey bigdaddyj;;; could you possibly, remember back, quesstamate, recall, approximately, any kind of estimation of HOW FAR you had pulled the slide back when you heard the shot??
    when the gun went off,, did it recoil? did it push the slide against your hand?
    when you racked the slide, did you pull it fast? to fling the cartridge out?
    or did you rack it slow the let the cartridge fall out?

    im glad you came out AOK, the cost of justice was way too high!!!
    im studying guns and gun safetys, trying to understand how these things
    can happen in "fail safe" mechanical contrivences.


    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    bigdaddyj, are you considering suing them? The abuse of your father is completely unacceptable, as well as the general handling of the incident. I hope you can still get dash cam footage at this point.

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    1245A Defender wrote:
    hey bigdaddyj;;; could you possibly, remember back, quesstamate, recall, approximately, any kind of estimation of HOW FAR you had pulled the slide back when you heard the shot??
    when the gun went off,, did it recoil? did it push the slide against your hand?
    when you racked the slide, did you pull it fast? to fling the cartridge out?
    or did you rack it slow the let the cartridge fall out?

    im glad you came out AOK, the cost of justice was way too high!!!
    im studying guns and gun safetys, trying to understand how these things
    can happen in "fail safe" mechanical contrivences.

    I had pulled the slide almost completely back. There was NO recoil. I didn't pull it back fast but also didn't pull it slow either. I don't remember if it pushed the slide against my hand, but I do remember I had alot of GSR on my finger.

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    Rogue9er wrote:
    bigdaddyj, are you considering suing them? The abuse of your father is completely unacceptable, as well as the general handling of the incident. I hope you can still get dash cam footage at this point.
    We have considered it but not quite sure what my dad wants to do about it. He said he understands BOTH sides of the situation, ONLY because he used to wear a badge.

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