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Thread: Just had a police encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    Well this morning I was out in my yard pulling out the old bike so I can go to work later. Had my 2 dogs outside with me when I heard some rustling of the leaves in my driveway. My Australian Shepard/beagle mix ran to the corner of the house barking to let me know somebody was here as all dogs should do. I went over there and saw that it was the mailman so I grabbed my dog an put her inside so that he can go about his business. Shortly after that I went in to work at a clients business. All of a sudden I get a call from my wife saying the cops are here asking about my gun and dogs. I told her to shut up and inform them that she has nothing to say without her husband and lawyer present and that I was on my way to discuss the matter with them.

    I rolled up to my house to find 2 detectives, a uniformed officer and animal control at the corner of my driveway. I parked my bike and set my backpack down next to it after removing my keys from the ignition. I then calmly approached the officers as one of them identified himself as a detective with West Allis PD. Then they started on there story of what they had been told

    Apparently our mailman (who is paranoid about dogs) called and is refusing to deliver mail to our address anymore. He does not feel safe that we let our dogs roam our yard supervised. He also made it extremely clear that he feels unable to defend himself with pepper spray as I carry a gun and he is afraid of what I might do. But he feels that it is no longer safe for him to enter onto my property. They told me I should contact the West Milwaukee Postal office and talk to the manager Chuck and come to some kind of agreement.

    I asked them what exactly is the issue and they said there isn't one. They are required to investigate all calls like this (not sure if they meant involving open carry or my dog). I asked them if it was clear that I have the right to allow my dogs to roam freely upon my own property as well as the right to openly carry a firearm. They told me yes that they and the Post Office are aware of my rights to both. I asked them again what the issue was and they told me that the Postal Service has the right to refuse to deliver my mail. I told them OK I will talk to Chuck and see what can be worked out.

    They then proceeded to leave. I called them again to clarify another thread and asked them if I have my weapon encased and unloaded does it have to be out of lung reach? They said no as long as it is unloaded and encased it can be anywhere in the vehicle. I asked ok so I can put my encased weapon on my dash? He told me yes but expect to still be asked to exit my vehicle at gun point. Just an opinion of a uniformed patrol officer though and does not reflect case law but just how he would react.

    Well I am off to drive down and talk to the Postal Manager in person to see if I can work out this dog thing. I am also going to make sure he understands my right to carry as well. Seems the postal worker was just fine until the day he asked me if I was a detective and I told him no. Some peoples kids.

    If I have to put up a mailbox at the end of my driveway I am getting one of those gun mailboxes lol. Anybody here a welder who can make one? lol


    wow had to edit all my typos and remove the attack

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    An officer abusing his discretion does not determine illegality or legality.

    Doug is going to ask me to cite case law
    No, you aren't expected to know case law.

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    Must be coming up on a full moon. I had some idiot leave his vehicle in the middle of the intersection in front of my house this morning. He just started walking down the street. My friend and I were standing in my yard and I asked the guy if he needed some help and that he could not just leave the vehicle parked in the middle of the street. His response was, "mind your own feckin business or I will smash you in the feckin face." My friend tried to reason with the guy and the guy charged at him yelling that he was going to cut his feckin face up. Nice huh?

    I told my friend that I would release my dog and the guy took off the other way. I then called 911. The guy was arrested for DC. I guess the cops weren't interested in the fact that he was driving without a license. As after I looked the guy up he just got his 4th+ driving after suspension.

    Anyway, I informed the Chief, who was the officer that responded that if the guys attempts to come back to my property I will do what ever it takes to defend myself and my family. The Chief knows I carry. The chief said, "I asked him what he would have done if he would have entered your property and found himself looking down the barrel of a gun and he said he was prepared for that." A true blue idiot.
    How can you be prepared for someone ending your life?

    This guy has prior battery charges, DC's, Property damage, Theft of property as well as his driving after suspensions. The chief said he told him if he is found anywhere near my property he will be arrested for Bail jumping.

    I wonder if that is before or after I do what is legally necessary to defend myself or my family.

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    Regular Member KansasKraut's Avatar
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    The mail service can refuse to deliver mail to your house?! I didn't know that. Considering that the Postal Service is a government bureaucracy and is the sole standard mail delivery service, I find that ridiculous. So you pay your taxes to support aforementioned bureaucracy and they can deny you service at will because some ***** is afraid of dogs, guns, and people? I'd fire off a letter if it were a private business, but complaining to the Postal Service would be pointless. I can see it now: "We appreciate and value your comments regarding our postal carrier and your denial of service. Kindly go f*ck yourself." Gotta love the gov't.

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    Hmmmm. So, police are now messengers for the post office?

    Call the post office and work out some agreement? How about the post office send a letter stating their position and inviting a discussion?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    SNIP Anyway, I informed the Chief, who was the officer that responded that if the guys attempts to come back to my property I will do what ever it takes to defend myself and my family.
    Oh, my.Sucha remark can later be twisted or honestly mis-remembered if I ever do have to use a gun for self-defense. Cop can then say on the stand, "Yes aboutthree months previously he had a similar encounter and he made it clear in an interview after that he would shoot. No, Mr. Prosecutor, he did not say anything along the lines of waiting until a weapon was in view, or trying to avoid a conflict, or waiting until the trespasser entered the house."

    I am thinking there is no need for such remark. Real men will understand without being told. I am thinking it has too much potential liability for too little gain.

    "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law" as the saying goes.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    Doug I thought you might ask for case law since I was quoting an opinion about an interpretation of the law. Probably jumped the gun with it but was expecting it.

    Just got back from the Post Office. I talked to the manager there and he informed me that he has to stop all delivery since his carrier is in fear of the dog. I told him that I want to find an acceptable solution to this issue and he had none to offer. I went on with a few ideas like putting a mailbox at the end of my driveway. He asked if I had a fence which I responded an invisible fence. He just gave me a weird eye. I then offered to not let my dogs out during a 4 hour or other reasonable period. He said that he balances 5 routes and it would be too difficult to determine when the mail might be delivered. I told him how it is unfeasible for me to get a postal box as I work 3-4 contracts at once as well as travel for extended periods of time out of state. My wife is disabled and cannot drive to the post office and that would leave us without being able to get our mail or legal notices within a reasonable time frame. He told me that there was nothing he can do and that his hands are tied by the union.

    I went on to tell him how all the other carriers love our dog and that he should investigate whether or not this carrier has any "reasonable" cause to fear for his safety. He told me that since the carrier "feels unsafe" that makes him unsafe. SO basically they can all say that they "feel unsafe" and force everybody to retrieve their mail from a PO box. Oh yeah and they can charge you for that box on top of it. There was another manager there who tried to tell me that allowing my dog to run free is against the law but Chuck quickly corrected her that West Allis has no law against it as long as the dog remains on private property and is leashed when off the property. I guess this was conveyed to him by our friendly West Allis PD officers when they investigated/harassed me earlier. Thought it was really funny how when we atarted the conversation he bent way to the side to check that my holster was empty. LOL. Well he said he will call me tomorrow morning after he talks to the union reps. He also made it really clear that if I continue to let my dogs run free while I am watching them that he may even stop deliveries to my neighbors as well up to and including 4 houses on either side. So now they are going to try to cause unrest in my community and make my neighbors hate me. What does he expect me to do leash my dogs in my own yard every time they have to drop one? Dogs will/should bark when somebody enters the property. This is not a threatening gesture it is how dogs behave.

    I also asked him how my carrying a firearm had anything to do with my animal and he pretty much said that the postal carrier is afraid to defend himself from a threat because of my weapon. I asked him if he understood that my firearm poses no threat to his carriers in any way. On the contrary if one of my animals or another animal was attacking anybody I would put it down in an instant and my carrying a firearm gives me the means to do so. I didn't go into the legalities of it all as most of those are up to perception at the time and therefore cannot be guaranteed one action or another. But I just wanted to convey that my firearm is not nor should it ever be an issue with his carriers.

    Half tempted to get a dog statue and install some remote barking unit in it and put it at the edge of my driveway. Then every time the carrier walks by trigger the thing. Maybe post a sign that reads "Mail Carriers and Other Officials should be afraid of bark." OK I am just joking but if it gets to the point that I have to pick up my mail everyday I will do something to show my displeasure in the postal service.

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    The obvious point is that this mail carrier can no longer deliver mail to any property where dogs are in an unfenced yard. How can such a carrier keep his job? Only work apartment buildings and commercial routes?

    If there are two homes with unfenced dogs in a given small neighborhood, then the whole neighborhood would be off limits for this carrier.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I would call the U.S. Postmasters office and file a complaint. If there has never been an issue with your pets that is in your favor. Either the carrier is fit for the job or he isn't. Union or no union.

    If this is the case every carrier can say they are afraid for their safety. Even in down town Milwaukee where the gang bangers hang out with their pants on the ground. Everyone in the city of Milwaukee could potentially be forced to get a P.O. Box.

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    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    I would call the U.S. Postmasters office and file a complaint. If there has never been an issue with your pets that is in your favor. Either the carrier is fit for the job or he isn't. Union or no union.

    If this is the case every carrier can say they are afraid for their safety. Even in down town Milwaukee where the gang bangers hang out with their pants on the ground. Everyone in the city of Milwaukee could potentially be forced to get a P.O. Box.
    Exactly my point. My dog was barking as dogs do and in no way charged him or made any other threatening gesture. My dog was over 25' away and had stood there barking. I need to find out who I can file a complaint with as well as if I'm entitled to contest this somehow. Just don't feel it is right for them to be able to make that decision with out some sort of due process. It's not like I let my dog out unsupervised, even though it is my right to do so.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Must be coming up on a full moon. I had some idiot leave his vehicle in the middle of the intersection in front of my house this morning. He just started walking down the street. My friend and I were standing in my yard and I asked the guy if he needed some help and that he could not just leave the vehicle parked in the middle of the street. His response was, "mind your own feckin business or I will smash you in the feckin face." My friend tried to reason with the guy and the guy charged at him yelling that he was going to cut his feckin face up. Nice huh?

    I told my friend that I would release my dog and the guy took off the other way. I then called 911. The guy was arrested for DC. I guess the cops weren't interested in the fact that he was driving without a license. As after I looked the guy up he just got his 4th+ driving after suspension.

    Anyway, I informed the Chief, who was the officer that responded that if the guys attempts to come back to my property I will do what ever it takes to defend myself and my family. The Chief knows I carry. The chief said, "I asked him what he would have done if he would have entered your property and found himself looking down the barrel of a gun and he said he was prepared for that." A true blue idiot.
    How can you be prepared for someone ending your life?

    This guy has prior battery charges, DC's, Property damage, Theft of property as well as his driving after suspensions. The chief said he told him if he is found anywhere near my property he will be arrested for Bail jumping.

    I wonder if that is before or after I do what is legally necessary to defend myself or my family.
    That is messed up J. Keep your eyes open for the next few days. At least in this case, you know the cops will be doing an extra few passes for a few weeks. Again, I would keep your eyes out for that scum. I hope to God you never need it, but I would also try to carry as much around your home as you can, but I guess you know that...

    Hey, I live in a "good" part of Milwaukee (in a way). I still hear all of the shots that go off blocks away from my house. Gangs, and gang members suck. No respect for anyone, anything...

    Back to the OP (sorry). I would bet your talk will fix any issue your mail person has with you. I sure would be shocked if it does not. I have gotten a lot of mail "by hand" from our carriers. Never have had any problem with the fact that I have a firearm on at the time. The dog thing, that might be an issue for him though. If he fears them, he won't be forced to come to your door. So how big is this killer mail man eating dog of yours?

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    Not to make things more difficult and/or add confusion to the situation but, the Post Office isn't a government outfit..... much like the Federal Reserve is a private company that works with and for the Govt. The Post Office is run and controlled by, and has a federal employees union, but isn't actually part of "The Government".


    So, that being said, they might think they can skip your house delivery but, seeing as how they have monopoly on letter delivery, I think the mailman should just "sack-up" and do his well paid job.
    <-----Leading by example....while armed

    Wisconsin democrats are a tough bunch, and you know what they say-- "when the going gets tough...."

    A "No Guns" sign protects me as much as a speed limit sign keeps people from speeding.

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    I have an Australian Sheppard mixed doggy also. Great bread. I think that mail man is in the wrong business if he's that easily flustered.

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    The mail can refuse delivery to your house due to fear ofthe dog but I don't get why the police were there or what they have to do with any of that

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    revolverrandy wrote:
    The mail can refuse delivery to your house due to fear ofÂ*the dog but I don't get why the police were there or what they have to do with any of that
    I suspect that the mail carrier called the police and made a report. The police are required to make a best effort to investigate such reports. I was probably only a CYA move on the mail carriers part to document the issue for the union. Without some sort of official witness and/or investigation his case of refusing to deliver mail to the address would be more difficult.

    I guess one way to put it is that someone other than the mail carrier and the home owner had to validate that the homeowner had a dog in order for the mail carrier to refuse service. The police will do that for free.

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    About 15 years ago, I moved into a new neighborhood. I bought a rottweiler puppy. As he grew, he became friendly to the neighbors. When he was about 3, he was on a tie out. My neighbor was trimming bushes, the dog became aggravated and started barking. He pulled out the earth anchor and dragged the chain slightly on my neighbor's property.
    I heard the barking and went out. I put the dog inside and apologized to the neighbor. For 10 minutes, he reamed my ass. He was right and I had to stand there and take it.
    I called a fence company that day to come out and give me an estimate.
    When my wife and son came home, I told them what happened. I then went to the hardware store.
    When I came back, they told me to sit down. They went over to the neighbor and apologized. He had a shotgun and waved it around cursing and threatening them and the dog. I called a friend in the police dept. He asked me if he pointed it at them. I said no and he asked me to calm down and not do anything now.
    Well, I put my HK P7 in my back pocket and went outside. Staying on my property, I was hoping for that bastard to come out.
    He didn't. I didn't speak to him for 10 years.

    About a month later, I come home and there's a note in the mailbox from the carrier. He could no longer deliver mail to the house because of the vicious dog.
    I thought, what the hell did he do now. He was inside the house. The picture window was intact and to the best of my knowledge he had not learned to unlock the door.
    I called the post office and they said the carrier would not come out unless the gates across the driveway from the newly installed fence were closed. They also wanted the mailbox moved to the end of the driveway.
    I asked, what did the dog do? He barked at the carrier- through a thermopane window.
    I thought a minute and then told the branch manager that the last thing I wanted was a carrier to get bitten. Then I told her that a federal judge in Chicago ordered the postal service to deliver mail to the Cabrini Green projects (now demolished) even though carriers had been shot at and robbed. I then said I was going to call the congressman's office and see what he would say about it. I also said I would call my attorney about this. Well, anyway about 2 days later, mail was delivered and there's been no problem since.

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    An aggressive dog barking behind glass is like a cocked and locked 1911 in a holster..

    Some people just don't know they're not in any danger from either.. :quirky

    -Adam

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    You can call the local postal inspectors and see what they tell you.If you had a regular carrier on the route you wouldn't have a problem but since you have subs on the route i'd just keep the dog tied up and away from the mailbox.USPS has alot of dog bite injuries and i bet money the PI's tell you the same thing i did.

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    loved the little nail from behind; he has a gun, so i'm afraid........never mind he was a law abiding citizen, and had shown no hostile intent, in fact was sympathetic and cooperative. nice of them all to come over to your house and all. so......when do i get to be invited over, and have to see your viscious dogs?! everyone coming to here to visit beware! we have our attack cats in the back yard on leashes, they are so dangerous!

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    Think your mail man would deliver to this or is it over the top






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    elvenhome21 wrote:
    Think your mail man would deliver to this or is it over the top




    OOOH! I WANT!

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    If i was to build one i would make it where it did one of three things.

    Either the trigger opened the mailbox or when you opened the mailbox the hammer and trigger pulled back ( you would need a spring on the face so it would snap shut and the hammer would come slamming down just to add to the realism)

    Or on a semi auto, think of it as a barrel cut in half horizontally so its like a trough to hold the mail and the slide is the cover to the mailbox. To open the mailbox you have to push the slide back and put the mail in the barrel (or you could even have the mail be put in the ejector hole in the slide).

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    I want to thank you for posting this Cobra. I used your example as a way to continue to educate my wife on such matters. She is pretty savvy because I talk about this type of stuff from time to time. But the USSC decision today about asserting your fifth amendment rights proved a good discussion starter. We both think the court really got this one wrong.

    I have said this on this website before, but I will repeat for the newcomers:
    You should be very concerned when the USSC consistently votes 5-4 on open and shut constitutional issues.

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    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    Well I have been doing a lot of research on this issue and can't seem to find any reports were the USPS has had an officer deliver notification of refusal to deliver mail. Standard practice is to deliver notification via mail which is pretty ironical. I will be submitting in FOI request to find out why exactly they felt that 2 detectives, a squad car, and animal control is required for such notifications. I still think that the bigger issue was my weapon since none of this was a problem till earlier in the week when I told him I was not LE. I am wondering if I can submit a FOI request on all complaints my mailman has filed on other parties? From what a neighbor says he complains about everything and likes to refuse mail. Unfortunately regardless of any of it there is nothing I can really do other than to get rid of my dogs from what I am reading. Wife won't let me put a stuffed dog in the tree with a remote barker and a rope so when he comes I can drop it and turn on the barker. Also thought of getting a neighbor to allow me to have my mail delivered to their address so the **** would still have to deliver my mail next door. I will post pictures of my "killer dogs" later.

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