Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 109

Thread: Out of reach not true

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chandler, AZ
    Posts
    4,047

    Post imported post

    OK, there has now been several cities police forces that have stated that the unloaded, encased firearm doesn't have to be out of reach.

    How do we get this fixed? http://www.opencarry.com/wi.html

  2. #2
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
    OK, there has now been several cities police forces that have stated that the unloaded, encased firearm doesn't have to be out of reach.

    How do we get this fixed? http://www.opencarry.com/wi.html
    As I've been trying to tell everyone, the Alloy case means nothing to us because it is an unpublished opinion. Here is the last line in the opinion:

    "This opinion will not be published. See WIS. STAT. RULE 809.23(1)(b)5."


    Here is current Wisconsin law regarding unpublished opinions (emphasis added):


    809.23(3) CITATION OF UNPUBLISHED OPINIONS. (a) An unpublished
    opinion may not be cited in any court of this state as precedent or
    authority
    ,
    except to support a claim of claim preclusion, issue preclusion,
    or the law of the case, and except as provided in par. (b).
    (b) In addition to the purposes specified in par. (a), an unpublished
    opinion issued on or after July 1, 2009, that is authored by
    a member of a three−judge panel or by a single judge under s.
    752.31 (2) may be cited for its persuasive value. A per curiam
    opinion, memorandum opinion, summary disposition order, or
    other order is not an authored opinion for purposes of this subsection.
    Because an unpublished opinion cited for its persuasive
    value is not precedent, it is not binding on any court of this state.

    A court need not distinguish or otherwise discuss an unpublished
    opinion and a party has no duty to research or cite it.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  3. #3
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Trempealeau County
    Posts
    2,187

    Post imported post

    Shotgun wrote:
    paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
    OK, there has now been several cities police forces that have stated that the unloaded, encased firearm doesn't have to be out of reach.

    How do we get this fixed? http://www.opencarry.com/wi.html
    As I've been trying to tell everyone, the Alloy case means nothing to us because it is an unpublished opinion. Here is the last line in the opinion:

    "This opinion will not be published. See WIS. STAT. RULE 809.23(1)(b)5."


    Here is current Wisconsin law regarding unpublished opinions (emphasis added):


    809.23(3) CITATION OF UNPUBLISHED OPINIONS. (a) An unpublished
    opinion may not be cited in any court of this state as precedent or
    authority
    ,
    except to support a claim of claim preclusion, issue preclusion,
    or the law of the case, and except as provided in par. (b).
    (b) In addition to the purposes specified in par. (a), an unpublished
    opinion issued on or after July 1, 2009, that is authored by
    a member of a three−judge panel or by a single judge under s.
    752.31 (2) may be cited for its persuasive value. A per curiam
    opinion, memorandum opinion, summary disposition order, or
    other order is not an authored opinion for purposes of this subsection.
    Because an unpublished opinion cited for its persuasive
    value is not precedent, it is not binding on any court of this state.

    A court need not distinguish or otherwise discuss an unpublished
    opinion and a party has no duty to research or cite it.
    Thank you, I have argued this very point with other OCDO members in the past.

    The farthest out of reach arguement should be DEAD.

    I have heard lawyers and cops have stated that with full compliance of 167.31, it can be anywhere. Even on your lap. All the other case law, as far as I have researched deals with loaded and/or uncased firearms.

  4. #4
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    High altitude of Vernon County, ,
    Posts
    1,025

    Post imported post

    This is a great eye oppener. Thank you for the info.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    22

    Post imported post

    Unpublished does not mean unpersuasive.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193

    Post imported post

    Is there any significance to a transport violation not being listed in the criminal statutes while concealed carry and its elements are so listed? Is there a presumption that vehicle carry is not subject to the same limiting elements as concealed carry? Thank you.

  7. #7
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Trempealeau County
    Posts
    2,187

    Post imported post

    County Prosecutor wrote:
    Unpublished does not mean unpersuasive.
    True. But is does mean unprecedental.

  8. #8
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    County Prosecutor wrote:
    Unpublished does not mean unpersuasive.
    Correct. But the fact that one may not even cite the case makes it unpersuasive. How will you persuade a judge with a case that you cannot cite?

    The Alloy case is from 2000, and only unpublished cases from July 1, 2009 or after may be cited.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Post imported post

    Seems to me then that an individual could have a a soft carrying case sewn around a holstered hand gun and then where the entire case and holster on their belt even when driving. All that would be necessary to be within the law would be for the firearm to be unloaded.

    Of course you would have to make the case so it attached to the holster with velcro so the case could be removed after exiting the vehicle. This would remove the need of unholstering and reholstering all that would be needed would be the loading and unloading.

    Just my .02 maybe I should patend this idea. lol I guess in a sense I just did.

  10. #10
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    J.Gleason wrote:
    Seems to me then that an individual could have a a soft carrying case sewn around a holstered hand gun and then where the entire case and holster on their belt even when driving. All that would be necessary to be within the law would be for the firearm to be unloaded.

    Of course you would have to make the case so it attached to the holster with velcro so the case could be removed after exiting the vehicle. This would remove the need of unholstering and reholstering all that would be needed would be the loading and unloading.

    Just my .02 maybe I should patend this idea. lol I guess in a sense I just did.
    Unfortunately if you want to carry with a chambered round you'll have just as much unholstering and reholstering as before. Revolvers would remain completely empty unless unholstered.


    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Post imported post

    Shotgun wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    Seems to me then that an individual could have a a soft carrying case sewn around a holstered hand gun and then where the entire case and holster on their belt even when driving. All that would be necessary to be within the law would be for the firearm to be unloaded.

    Of course you would have to make the case so it attached to the holster with velcro so the case could be removed after exiting the vehicle. This would remove the need of unholstering and reholstering all that would be needed would be the loading and unloading.

    Just my .02 maybe I should patend this idea. lol I guess in a sense I just did.
    Unfortunately if you want to carry with a chambered round you'll have just as much unholstering and reholstering as before. Revolvers would remain completely empty unless unholstered.

    That is correct. You if you do not carry with a chambered round, you would not have to do anything other than slide a mag in and out. If the case was made as to attach to the holster with velcro, it would be essentially a tear away case which would still completely encase the firearm. This could be done with a paddle holster or a belt holster. If the firearm does not have to be out of reach, then it would be legal for it to be on your hip if it was encased. The mag would also have to be removed from the firearm while in the vehicle of course.

    All one needs to learn for the act of self defense, is to rack the slide as you draw the firearm from the holster. Practice makes perfect, at least we hope.

  12. #12
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    J.Gleason wrote:
    rack the slide as you draw the firearm from the holster
    Sure, provided you have the necessary space and free hand to rack the slide. Attacks may happen up close and suddenly and your weak side may be fending off an attack as your strong hand draws. It's possible to rack a slide against the holster or belt, but it's more difficult, and perhaps impossible during a struggle. I prefer a gun that's ready to fire the moment it clears the holster. You may have to literally shoot from the hip.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Post imported post

    Shotgun wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    rack the slide as you draw the firearm from the holster
    Sure, provided you have the necessary space and free hand to rack the slide. Attacks may happen up close and suddenly and your weak side may be fending off an attack as your strong hand draws. It's possible to rack a slide against the holster or belt, but it's more difficult, and perhaps impossible during a struggle. I prefer a gun that's ready to fire the moment it clears the holster. You may have to literally shoot from the hip.
    I definately agree. So even with having to load and unload you could still have the firearm on your hip while in the vehicle without having to place it in a seperate case.

    It could stay in the holster inside the attached case until you exit the vehicle.

    Would be mighty nice in the event of a carjacking!

    As far as the chambered round issue, not having a round in the chamber has it's benefits as well.

    For example many carriers who have small children may like this option in the event that the child ever would handle the firearm without the parent knowing about it. A small child more than likely would not realize they have to rack the slide to load the round into the chamber.

    Another example would be if a carrier were to get into an altercation in which a thug criminal disarmed the carrier and now had posession of the firearm at least the carrier knows that there is not a round in the chamber giving them less of a chance of being injured or killed upon being disarmed.

    Personally while carrying I do not let anyone get that close to me. Not even friends. Sometimes friends do stupid things. Then again if you have someone that is that hell bent on taking your firearm from you that person is not a friend. All options are on the table.


  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    71

    Post imported post

    If a gun is properly cased that is not a concealed weapon IMO. You can ask any law enforcement agency or DA/CA and they will confirm this. Concealing a cased gun seems to be the funky area, but still I do not see it being consistent with our Constitution..

    People transport guns on ATV's, motorcycles, boats, truck cabs without a bed or box, and simply carrying a cased gun, people do this everyday in Wisconsin. It is absurd to think someone could not have a method to transport a gun.

    People have debated this issue alot on here and I dont think that debate will ever end, because I do not think you will find a LEO or DA that would charge you with anything. The Alloy case, he had a cased gun inside of another box next to the drivers seat, nowhere do I see they argue it was an unloaded or properly cased gun, was it loaded or not? And he was concealing the cased gun, people are even saying an enclosed holster or case on the dash is illegal. I really dont know, and I am no lawyer, but the argument itself seems silly.

    The out of reach thing has to be untrue, explain gun cases that are made for ATV's. Explain gun racks in a truck or boat, explain a gun case with a freaking handle on it.


  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Post imported post

    minuteman wrote:
    If a gun is properly cased that is not a concealed weapon IMO. You can ask any law enforcement agency or DA/CA and they will confirm this. Concealing a cased gun seems to be the funky area, but still I do not see it being consistent with our Constitution..

    People transport guns on ATV's, motorcycles, boats, truck cabs without a bed or box, and simply carrying a cased gun, people do this everyday in Wisconsin. It is absurd to think someone could not have a method to transport a gun.

    People have debated this issue alot on here and I dont think that debate will ever end, because I do not think you will find a LEO or DA that would charge you with anything. The Alloy case, he had a cased gun inside of another box next to the drivers seat, nowhere do I see they argue it was an unloaded or properly cased gun, was it loaded or not? And he was concealing the cased gun, people are even saying an enclosed holster or case on the dash is illegal. I really dont know, and I am no lawyer, but the argument itself seems silly.

    The out of reach thing has to be untrue, explain gun cases that are made for ATV's. Explain gun racks in a truck or boat, explain a gun case with a freaking handle on it.
    My point exactly, So if a person has a holster which has an attachable case such as with velcro that would entirely encase the firearm even though it is still on your hip and in the holster, as long as the firearm is unloaded you could legally carry this way in your vehicle.

    For example, lets look at a Fobus Paddle Holster. The case would slip up under the holster, inbetween the paddle and the holster. The rest of the case ould then be pulled up and over the firearm and attach to a piece of velcro on the back side of the holster where the holster meets the paddle. with elastic around the opening, the material would eclosed the firearm making it encased with no part of the firearm exposed. The case could even have a zipper sewn in so the firearm could be accessed through the zipper as well.

    After leaving the vehicle, the carrier would simply release the velcro and peel the case off of the holstered firearm unencasing it. Then all that would be left to do is the loading and unloading ritual.

    ETA: This would also be great for motorcyclists

    Give me your thoughts on this as I might go forward with this and talk to some holster companies.

  16. #16
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    High altitude of Vernon County, ,
    Posts
    1,025

    Post imported post

    Well you might be on to something. I would prefer to see Wisconsin's transportation laws loosen up.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Canard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    SE, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    148

    Post imported post

    You mean like this... http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum1903.php

    Talk to the folk in Illinois, this is how they carry, or at least talk about carrying.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193

    Post imported post

    Shotgun wrote:
    County Prosecutor wrote:
    Unpublished does not mean unpersuasive.
    Correct. But the fact that one may not even cite the case makes it unpersuasive. How will you persuade a judge with a case that you cannot cite?

    The Alloy case is from 2000, and only unpublished cases from July 1, 2009 or after may be cited.
    Do you mean as SCOTUS shouldn't be persuaded by international/other nations' law?

  19. #19
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    You're asking me, Doug?

    I said nothing about SCOTUS. Didn't even imply it.


    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Post imported post

    Canard wrote:
    You mean like this... http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum1903.php

    Talk to the folk in Illinois, this is how they carry, or at least talk about carrying.
    Yes some what like that except it would intergrate with any side holster.

    I must say I do like the fanny pack style though as well as you can carry other things inside such as ID or a cell phone or recorder/camera.

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Post imported post

    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:
    County Prosecutor wrote:
    Unpublished does not mean unpersuasive.
    Correct. But the fact that one may not even cite the case makes it unpersuasive. How will you persuade a judge with a case that you cannot cite?

    The Alloy case is from 2000, and only unpublished cases from July 1, 2009 or after may be cited.
    Do you mean as SCOTUS shouldn't be persuaded by international/other nations' law?
    I do not believe SCOTUS should be persuaded by international/other nations' laws.

    Their constitutions may be different then ours and may very well be more stringent. The only thing the SCOTUS should focus on is our constitution. But that is just my .02

  22. #22
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chandler, AZ
    Posts
    4,047

    Post imported post

    J.Gleason wrote:
    I do not believe SCOTUS should be persuaded by international/other nations' laws.

    Their constitutions may be different then ours and may very well be more stringent. The only thing the SCOTUS should focus on is our constitution. But that is just my .02
    We now have 4 cents!!!

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    93

    Post imported post

    Lets not forget that Mr. Alloy was found guilty, twice. Although his case is unpublished it does show what kind of argument judges have made in the past to find someone guilty of a firearm related offense. I wouldn't make too many assumptions about what one can and cannot do based on an unpublished guilty verdict. What is your defense if charged with carrying a concealed weapon because the weapon is within reach or "on or about your person? Another interesting unpublished opinion is State of WI vs. Caprice S.I. which will probably not help to clarify the issues here but does deal directly with them.

    http://www.wicourts.gov/ca/opinion/D...ml&seqNo=32273

    I think that to come to the conclusion that a encased firearm trumps all potential legal issues may be foolish.

    Maybe.

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Post imported post

    So I guess you better not carry shoe strings or a lock. How about keys? I could kill someone with my keys, are they a concealed weapon? What about the arm of my glasses? If I break off the arm of my glasses I could probably stab you in such a way to kill you.

    The prosecutor and the judge that convicted this girl should be ran out of town on a rail. This is the problem with this state. The judges and prosecutors have all become so obsessed with getting themselves an OJ case that they will railroad anyone for the smallest infraction of the law hoping that the case will gain some precidence and they will become famous.



  25. #25
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    J.Gleason wrote:
    So I guess you better not carry shoe strings or a lock. How about keys? I could kill someone with my keys, are they a concealed weapon? What about the arm of my glasses? If I break off the arm of my glasses I could probably stab you in such a way to kill you.
    What seems to be missing from that case is a discussion whether she actually had a weapon. As I understand it, for something to be regarded as a weapon it has to be either designed as a weapon, or, actually used as a weapon. Padlocks and shoestrings are not designed to be weapons and I didn't notice anything in the decision that implied the girl actually used it as a weapon. Lots of things can be "used" as a weapon, e.g., baseball bat, steak knife, cue stick, broken bottle, a rolled up newspaper, a pencil, a vehicle... but none are weapons until they are employed as such.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •