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Out of reach not true

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
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paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
OK, there has now been several cities police forces that have stated that the unloaded, encased firearm doesn't have to be out of reach.

How do we get this fixed? http://www.opencarry.com/wi.html
As I've been trying to tell everyone, the Alloy case means nothing to us because it is an unpublished opinion. Here is the last line in the opinion:

"This opinion will not be published. See WIS. STAT. RULE 809.23(1)(b)5."


Here is current Wisconsin law regarding unpublished opinions (emphasis added):


809.23(3) CITATION OF UNPUBLISHED OPINIONS. (a) An unpublished
opinion may not be cited in any court of this state as precedent or
authority
,
except to support a claim of claim preclusion, issue preclusion,
or the law of the case, and except as provided in par. (b).
(b) In addition to the purposes specified in par. (a), an unpublished
opinion issued on or after July 1, 2009, that is authored by
a member of a three−judge panel or by a single judge under s.
752.31 (2) may be cited for its persuasive value. A per curiam
opinion, memorandum opinion, summary disposition order, or
other order is not an authored opinion for purposes of this subsection.
Because an unpublished opinion cited for its persuasive
value is not precedent, it is not binding on any court of this state.

A court need not distinguish or otherwise discuss an unpublished
opinion and a party has no duty to research or cite it.
 

BROKENSPROKET

Regular Member
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Trempealeau County
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Shotgun wrote:
paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
OK, there has now been several cities police forces that have stated that the unloaded, encased firearm doesn't have to be out of reach.

How do we get this fixed? http://www.opencarry.com/wi.html
As I've been trying to tell everyone, the Alloy case means nothing to us because it is an unpublished opinion. Here is the last line in the opinion:

"This opinion will not be published. See WIS. STAT. RULE 809.23(1)(b)5."


Here is current Wisconsin law regarding unpublished opinions (emphasis added):


809.23(3) CITATION OF UNPUBLISHED OPINIONS. (a) An unpublished
opinion may not be cited in any court of this state as precedent or
authority
,
except to support a claim of claim preclusion, issue preclusion,
or the law of the case, and except as provided in par. (b).
(b) In addition to the purposes specified in par. (a), an unpublished
opinion issued on or after July 1, 2009, that is authored by
a member of a three−judge panel or by a single judge under s.
752.31 (2) may be cited for its persuasive value. A per curiam
opinion, memorandum opinion, summary disposition order, or
other order is not an authored opinion for purposes of this subsection.
Because an unpublished opinion cited for its persuasive
value is not precedent, it is not binding on any court of this state.

A court need not distinguish or otherwise discuss an unpublished
opinion and a party has no duty to research or cite it.

Thank you, I have argued this very point with other OCDO members in the past.

The farthest out of reach arguement should be DEAD.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

I have heard lawyers and cops have stated that with full compliance of 167.31, it can be anywhere. Even on your lap. All the other case law, as far as I have researched deals with loaded and/or uncased firearms.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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Madison, Wisconsin, USA
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County Prosecutor wrote:
Unpublished does not mean unpersuasive.
Correct. But the fact that one may not even cite the case makes it unpersuasive. How will you persuade a judge with a case that you cannot cite?

The Alloy case is from 2000, and only unpublished cases from July 1, 2009 or after may be cited.
 

J.Gleason

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Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
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Seems to me then that an individual could have a a soft carrying case sewn around a holstered hand gun and then where the entire case and holster on their belt even when driving. All that would be necessary to be within the law would be for the firearm to be unloaded.

Of course you would have to make the case so it attached to the holster with velcro so the case could be removed after exiting the vehicle. This would remove the need of unholstering and reholstering all that would be needed would be the loading and unloading.

Just my .02 maybe I should patend this idea. lol I guess in a sense I just did.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
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Madison, Wisconsin, USA
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J.Gleason wrote:
Seems to me then that an individual could have a a soft carrying case sewn around a holstered hand gun and then where the entire case and holster on their belt even when driving. All that would be necessary to be within the law would be for the firearm to be unloaded.

Of course you would have to make the case so it attached to the holster with velcro so the case could be removed after exiting the vehicle. This would remove the need of unholstering and reholstering all that would be needed would be the loading and unloading.

Just my .02 maybe I should patend this idea. lol I guess in a sense I just did.
Unfortunately if you want to carry with a chambered round you'll have just as much unholstering and reholstering as before. Revolvers would remain completely empty unless unholstered.
 

J.Gleason

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Location
Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
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Shotgun wrote:
J.Gleason wrote:
Seems to me then that an individual could have a a soft carrying case sewn around a holstered hand gun and then where the entire case and holster on their belt even when driving. All that would be necessary to be within the law would be for the firearm to be unloaded.

Of course you would have to make the case so it attached to the holster with velcro so the case could be removed after exiting the vehicle. This would remove the need of unholstering and reholstering all that would be needed would be the loading and unloading.

Just my .02 maybe I should patend this idea. lol I guess in a sense I just did.
Unfortunately if you want to carry with a chambered round you'll have just as much unholstering and reholstering as before. Revolvers would remain completely empty unless unholstered.
That is correct. You if you do not carry with a chambered round, you would not have to do anything other than slide a mag in and out. If the case was made as to attach to the holster with velcro, it would be essentially a tear away case which would still completely encase the firearm. This could be done with a paddle holster or a belt holster. If the firearm does not have to be out of reach, then it would be legal for it to be on your hip if it was encased. The mag would also have to be removed from the firearm while in the vehicle of course.

All one needs to learn for the act of self defense, is to rack the slide as you draw the firearm from the holster. Practice makes perfect, at least we hope.
 

Shotgun

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J.Gleason wrote:
rack the slide as you draw the firearm from the holster
Sure, provided you have the necessary space and free hand to rack the slide. Attacks may happen up close and suddenly and your weak side may be fending off an attack as your strong hand draws. It's possible to rack a slide against the holster or belt, but it's more difficult, and perhaps impossible during a struggle. I prefer a gun that's ready to fire the moment it clears the holster. You may have to literally shoot from the hip.
 

J.Gleason

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Shotgun wrote:
J.Gleason wrote:
rack the slide as you draw the firearm from the holster
Sure, provided you have the necessary space and free hand to rack the slide. Attacks may happen up close and suddenly and your weak side may be fending off an attack as your strong hand draws. It's possible to rack a slide against the holster or belt, but it's more difficult, and perhaps impossible during a struggle. I prefer a gun that's ready to fire the moment it clears the holster. You may have to literally shoot from the hip.
I definately agree. So even with having to load and unload you could still have the firearm on your hip while in the vehicle without having to place it in a seperate case.

It could stay in the holster inside the attached case until you exit the vehicle.

Would be mighty nice in the event of a carjacking!

As far as the chambered round issue, not having a round in the chamber has it's benefits as well.

For example many carriers who have small children may like this option in the event that the child ever would handle the firearm without the parent knowing about it. A small child more than likely would not realize they have to rack the slide to load the round into the chamber.

Another example would be if a carrier were to get into an altercation in which a thug criminal disarmed the carrier and now had posession of the firearm at least the carrier knows that there is not a round in the chamber giving them less of a chance of being injured or killed upon being disarmed.

Personally while carrying I do not let anyone get that close to me. Not even friends. Sometimes friends do stupid things. Then again if you have someone that is that hell bent on taking your firearm from you that person is not a friend. All options are on the table.
 

minuteman

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Messages
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Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
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If a gun is properly cased that is not a concealed weapon IMO. You can ask any law enforcement agency or DA/CA and they will confirm this. Concealing a cased gun seems to be the funky area, but still I do not see it being consistent with our Constitution..

People transport guns on ATV's, motorcycles, boats, truck cabs without a bed or box, and simply carrying a cased gun, people do this everyday in Wisconsin. It is absurd to think someone could not have a method to transport a gun.

People have debated this issue alot on here and I dont think that debate will ever end, because I do not think you will find a LEO or DA that would charge you with anything. The Alloy case, he had a cased gun inside of another box next to the drivers seat, nowhere do I see they argue it was an unloaded or properly cased gun, was it loaded or not? And he was concealing the cased gun, people are even saying an enclosed holster or case on the dash is illegal. I really dont know, and I am no lawyer, but the argument itself seems silly.

The out of reach thing has to be untrue, explain gun cases that are made for ATV's. Explain gun racks in a truck or boat, explain a gun case with a freaking handle on it.
 

J.Gleason

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Location
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minuteman wrote:
If a gun is properly cased that is not a concealed weapon IMO. You can ask any law enforcement agency or DA/CA and they will confirm this. Concealing a cased gun seems to be the funky area, but still I do not see it being consistent with our Constitution..

People transport guns on ATV's, motorcycles, boats, truck cabs without a bed or box, and simply carrying a cased gun, people do this everyday in Wisconsin. It is absurd to think someone could not have a method to transport a gun.

People have debated this issue alot on here and I dont think that debate will ever end, because I do not think you will find a LEO or DA that would charge you with anything. The Alloy case, he had a cased gun inside of another box next to the drivers seat, nowhere do I see they argue it was an unloaded or properly cased gun, was it loaded or not? And he was concealing the cased gun, people are even saying an enclosed holster or case on the dash is illegal. I really dont know, and I am no lawyer, but the argument itself seems silly.

The out of reach thing has to be untrue, explain gun cases that are made for ATV's. Explain gun racks in a truck or boat, explain a gun case with a freaking handle on it.
My point exactly, So if a person has a holster which has an attachable case such as with velcro that would entirely encase the firearm even though it is still on your hip and in the holster, as long as the firearm is unloaded you could legally carry this way in your vehicle.

For example, lets look at a Fobus Paddle Holster. The case would slip up under the holster, inbetween the paddle and the holster. The rest of the case ould then be pulled up and over the firearm and attach to a piece of velcro on the back side of the holster where the holster meets the paddle. with elastic around the opening, the material would eclosed the firearm making it encased with no part of the firearm exposed. The case could even have a zipper sewn in so the firearm could be accessed through the zipper as well.

After leaving the vehicle, the carrier would simply release the velcro and peel the case off of the holstered firearm unencasing it. Then all that would be left to do is the loading and unloading ritual.

ETA: This would also be great for motorcyclists

Give me your thoughts on this as I might go forward with this and talk to some holster companies.
 

Doug Huffman

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Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
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Shotgun wrote:
County Prosecutor wrote:
Unpublished does not mean unpersuasive.
Correct. But the fact that one may not even cite the case makes it unpersuasive. How will you persuade a judge with a case that you cannot cite?

The Alloy case is from 2000, and only unpublished cases from July 1, 2009 or after may be cited.
Do you mean as SCOTUS shouldn't be persuaded by international/other nations' law?
 

J.Gleason

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Canard wrote:
You mean like this... http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum1903.php

Talk to the folk in Illinois, this is how they carry, or at least talk about carrying.
Yes some what like that except it would intergrate with any side holster.

I must say I do like the fanny pack style though as well as you can carry other things inside such as ID or a cell phone or recorder/camera.
 
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