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Thread: Girl abducted in busy parking lot, in broad daylight

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Ironically, less than 10 minutes before this video was recorded, I had just finished placing an order for a new M&P 9c. Over the past few weeks I had decided that a) 9mm ammo is much cheaper to practice with, and until today, a distant b) my 5-shot 642 may not be enough, should the need ever arise.

    After watching this video, I will feel much more comfortable with a 12+1 shot 9mm.

    Keep your eye out for a dark green van with Rhode Island tag number 984610.

    http://fredericksburg.com/News/Web/2...0529abduction/

    The girl did seem to be aware of her situation, you can see that as she is approached, she changes direction in an attempt to elude her abductors. She is simply overwhelmed at 5 against 1.

    It's a tough call, what do you do if you are there and see this going down?

    TFred


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    Information obtained by Jacksonville authorities indicated that the family had stopped in Stafford County on the way to a move in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., and apparently the teen did not want to move and had to be forced back into the van by family members in order to continue the trip.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    It's a tough call, what do you do if you are there and see this going down?
    I'd be inclined to do nothing (except call the cops and maybe follow?)... too many potential legal problems with defending someone I don't know.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    t33j wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    It's a tough call, what do you do if you are there and see this going down?
    I'd be inclined to do nothing (except call the cops and maybe follow?)... too many potential legal problems with defending someone I don't know.
    I agree as this case dramatically shows, you don't know the full issue. Be a good witness and maybe follow the van, if you can do so safely while talking to the police.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
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    If i was there, carrying or not, i would have done something. Watching this video I was struck with a great deal of anger, at the people just watching, I find it absolutely obscene, that the woman with the white bag did nothing, except to get out of the way of the abductors. I watched the video closely and didn't see one person with a cell phone, calling the police.

    This isn't a question of whether a 5-shot revolver is enough. It is a question of character and a duty to help, in whatever way you can.

    Christopher

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The number of folks who whipped out their cell phones to call 911 and to take pictures is just overwhelming - NOT!

    One female walked around the incident with barely a turn of her head to observe what was happening. After the van drove off several folks walked to a point closer to where things had happened - as if they had been a bit farther away but now wanted to get close to the scene - and all they did was talk to each other.

    If you ever thought of depending on others to at least call the cops and report the crime being committed against you, here is just one more example of how much that is just not going to happen.

    This is a classic case of how badly things could have gone if someone had jumped the gun (no pun intended) and intervened without knowing what was in fact taking place. That's not to say this was not the time & place to yell "Do you need help?" or "I'm calling the police" - at that point one of the family members might have responded by telling you what was going on, and the matter could have been resolved much sooner. (No, Iwill not just stop being concerned, but a few words exchanged might make me believe it was not in fact a kidnapping in progress. And yes, I'd still call the cops no matter if they all told me the same story.)

    So - how long does it take to drive from Fredericksburg, Va to Jacksonville, Fl with a reluctant teenage girl who needs to be fed and given bathroom breaks? Seems strange that the kid did not try to bolt again during the rest of the trip.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    bealaskan wrote:
    If i was there, carrying or not, i would have done something. Watching this video I was struck with a great deal of anger, at the people just watching, I find it absolutely obscene, that the woman with the white bag did nothing, except to get out of the way of the abductors. I watched the video closely and didn't see one person with a cell phone, calling the police.

    This isn't a question of whether a 5-shot revolver is enough. It is a question of character and a duty to help, in whatever way you can.

    Christopher
    I agree. People have to act.

    The news reports it wasn't an "abduction" after all.

    http://www.wric.com/Global/story.asp?S=12566681

    I just love the story: "After witnesses watched.... "

    To which I add: and did NOTHING.

    Of course, we're all advised to "take down information and give it to police."

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    It takes about 8 hours. My wife and I left Fredericksburg at 5pm and were in Jacksonville between midnight and 2AM. This was with 3 gas in a full size V-8 pickup, potty, and meal stops.

    This is a tough one to say given the lack of details. What was the victim screaming? What were the aggressors saying? Maybe the statements and conversations made it clear to those in the immediate vicinity that it was a child not wanting to move to a new home. How do you handle a situation where the girl is saying, "Mom, I don't want to move to Florida. I'm not getting in the car."

    Finding the van within 13 hours later seems like a success especially since it was what 1000 miles from the supposed crime scene. But it does underscore the point that when seconds matter, police are minutes away.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    It's hard to say what I'd have done. I guess a lot would depend on if I was in one of my "Too damn many people in my world" moods. They get more frequent as time passes.

    Because of the age of the girl, I suppose I'd have stopped it until I found out what was going on.

    To be honest, when I looked at the video my first idea was that she had jumped bail and was just going back to jail.

    Had it been an adult male, I'd have stuck to minding my own business. Not a very macho answer...but at least truthful.:?

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    I would have intervened and did so in another case of domestic violence that put myself in jeopardy once before. I would still be somewhat cautious knowing that I could suffer an armed attack by any involved.

    I don't know what the laws are in Virginia but in Missouri you are justified in using self defense if you reasonably believe such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person.

    From the looks of the video, I think a citizen witnessing what is occuring is justified in using force to intervene even though it could end up being a big mistake. Public kidnappings that look exactly like this are becoming a common sight now that we are in the information age. It would be perfectly reasonable to react to this situation just the same. I would hope that should my wife, 18yr old daughter or my 3 year old daughter be in the same situation, that others would use whatever force is necessary to help them out.

    I think at least partial responsibility also rests with the group of people who violently captured this girl and basically abducted her in that van. There are better ways to go about it and this is a situation that might have been much better served by all parties to have the police involved with instead of using such extreme measures as they chose to do.

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    rlh2005 wrote:
    It takes about 8 hours. My wife and I left Fredericksburg at 5pm and were in Jacksonville between midnight and 2AM. This was with 3 gas in a full size V-8 pickup, potty, and meal stops.

    This is a tough one to say given the lack of details. What was the victim screaming? What were the aggressors saying? Maybe the statements and conversations made it clear to those in the immediate vicinity that it was a child not wanting to move to a new home. How do you handle a situation where the girl is saying, "Mom, I don't want to move to Florida. I'm not getting in the car."

    Finding the van within 13 hours later seems like a success especially since it was what 1000 miles from the supposed crime scene. But it does underscore the point that when seconds matter, police are minutes away.
    Ther wasn't any sound on the video so we don't know what was being said. It sould have been just as you stated that the arguing made it appear as a family deal so I am not as quick to jump on the bystanders as some. The advice about being sure of what you are jumping into is always good as when I took my CWP class the instructor related a local incident that happened not long before the class. It was similar where it appeared that a man was about to be dragged from a mini-van and killed with his family watching. We were asked to say what we would do and if we would get involved. It turned out that it involved off-duty LEO and drunks. If and outsider had tried to get involved it very well could have ended bad. Luckily the police showed up in time and got things straightened out but always know what you are getting into.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I think most here would have reported and observed. Some would have detained.

    Do not know how I might have responded as there is too little information lacking sound and the ability to interact with participants.

    Excellent example of why hasty decisions or preceding w/o knowing exactly what is happening can be perilous.

    I can understand the young lady not wanting to move to Florida and desiring to stay in Virginia though. I share that thought.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    PT111 wrote:
    rlh2005 wrote:
    Finding the van within 13 hours later seems like a success especially since it was what 1000 miles from the supposed crime scene. But it does underscore the point that when seconds matter, police are minutes away.
    Luckily the police showed up in time and got things straightened out but always know what you are getting into.
    In time?

    Wow, when seconds count, the police make contact 13 hours later.

    Not knocking LE, just the reference however slight, that they were there when needed.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    I think most here would have reported and observed. Some would have detained.

    Do not know how I might have responded as there is too little information lacking sound and the ability to interact with participants.

    Excellent example of why hasty decisions or preceding w/o knowing exactly what is happening can be perilous.

    I can understand the young lady not wanting to move to Florida and desiring to stay in Virginia though. I share that thought.

    Yata hey
    They were from Rhode Island, in transit to Florida.

    But then again, finding herself in Virginia and perhaps recognizing her good fortune, she decided to stay?

    But the bigger question for all those who say they would have done more than observe and report -- just what is it you would have done? And for those of you who say you would go to the display/offer of deadly force, what are your justifications?

    A special note to Peter Nap - Really, in spite of what you may have heard, I'm your friend, pal, buddy and boon companion, m'kay?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    this same type of situation occurred feet away from me years ago, while driving through an alley. i stopped my truck, called 911, and described what i saw. that's all i did.

    fortunately/unfortunately, the police were unable to identify the cross street and alley i called from, even though there was a police substation close enough for me to throw a rock in their window.

    it was later found to be a family picking up a runaway relative. this kind of crap stopped when PW county passed the illegal alien ordinance back in 2007.

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    But the bigger question for all those who say they would have done more than observe and report -- just what is it you would have done?* And for those of you who say you would go to the display/offer of deadly force, what are your justifications?


    To answer that question, you maintain situational awareness, act in a manner appropriate, and then re-assess the situation . A simple 911 call, give a detailed description of the vehicle along with the plate number, and sending someone for a security guard, may be enough. If you in a position to interfere long enough for help to arrive, even if that means putting yourself at risk, then that may be necessary. If you are armed and unholster your firearm in the defense of another, that is dependent on the situation. Whatever your course of action, the use of deadly force is only taken as a last resort.

    The point I was making, in my earlier post had little to do with OC or CC. It was more to do with our society. We have become a society of people who don't what to get involved.

    I am glad this situation had a happy (relatively) ending but what if the girl in question, was found dead? If I was in that situation and failed to act in some manner, to defend another and my inaction resulted in the injury or death of another, I know I would not want to live with that guilt.

    Christopher

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Will those either without guilt or with perfect foresight, please take two steps forward.

    I'd like to meet you.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    rlh2005 wrote:
    Finding the van within 13 hours later seems like a success especially since it was what 1000 miles from the supposed crime scene. But it does underscore the point that when seconds matter, police are minutes away.
    Luckily the police showed up in time and got things straightened out but always know what you are getting into.
    In time?

    Wow, when seconds count, the police make contact 13 hours later.

    Not knocking LE, just the reference however slight, that they were there when needed.

    Yata hey
    I was talking about the situation that was being discussed in my CWP class. There the police showed up while theman was being pulled from his vehicle. Wound up being a good cop/bad cop situation and yes the bad cops got fired among other penalties.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    PT111 wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    rlh2005 wrote:
    Finding the van within 13 hours later seems like a success especially since it was what 1000 miles from the supposed crime scene. But it does underscore the point that when seconds matter, police are minutes away.
    Luckily the police showed up in time and got things straightened out but always know what you are getting into.
    In time?

    Wow, when seconds count, the police make contact 13 hours later.

    Not knocking LE, just the reference however slight, that they were there when needed.

    Yata hey
    I was talking about the situation that was being discussed in my CWP class. There the police showed up while theman was being pulled from his vehicle. Wound up being a good cop/bad cop situation and yes the bad cops got fired among other penalties.
    I see the distinction now that I reread it. My bad.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Will those either without guilt or with perfect foresight, please take two steps forward.

    I'd like to meet you.

    Yata hey
    {Walking backwards} Most LEO will tell you that they hate domestic violence cases between husbands and wives and a few situations have been posted oon this board. They show up somewhere for a call about a man beating a woman and start to try and protect the woman. Next thing you know both the man and woman are beating on the cops. Sometimes even when foresight is perfect it is still flawed.

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    Looking at the "abductors" a little more closely in the video, you see that one of them looks like a girl in her teens or twenties, not badly dressed. They don't look like stereotypical thugs.Little details like that would make a big difference when deciding what to do.

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    I don't think I would have drawn or even unholstered if I would have approached my to find out whats going on my hand would be damn close to my sidearm though. I don't think I could have just stood there those people family or not went about that in the completely wrong way. I'm glad everything turned out for the better. Also appearance doesn't always matter but then again I don't trust any one know matter how they are dressed but thats from getting blown up by or having friends get blown up by people in police uniforms that hung out with you every day until some one lets their guard down.



    Any ways it's always a lot easier to critique actions of others when you're not there and when you don't have a clue how you would handle a situation even if you have handled the same situation 20 times. If that made since.




    Semper Fi

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    Of course we don't have the luxury of the audio so we can only go by what we are seeing on the video. The girl could be yelling first names or "Dad" which would have informed onlookers immediately that it isn't a stranger abducting someone.

    For the sake of this topic I amassuming that I don't have any of my own children with me and that audio hasn't given a distinct clue as to what is really happening before my eyes.

    This is a very interesting scenario as itdemonstrates perfectlythat what you see isn't always what you got. It reminds me of a police training video I saw on youtube where an officer draws down on an armed suspect. He orders him to drop his weapon and as he is,he's sneaking ahandgun from his back waistband.An officer who comes around the corner from the rear yells out gun and takes down the armed man.

    I have no qualms with admitting that I would have gotten involved. The entire thing looks like an abduction. I don't think I would have drawn a firearm first thing but I would have definitely left that option open if I was convinced a violent crime was occuring and deadly force was presented to me or possibly even if the abduction continued. The fact that my firearm is visibly holstered on my side may be enough in itself to help calm down this situation from a physical level to a verbal level.

    If I made a big mistake then I would have possibly had to pay for that mistake. I just can't sit there and watch any woman or child be snatched and grabbed in a public parking lot. Usually its a hell that is too difficult to imagine that awaits victims of these kinds of crimes. Its imperative that a victim isn't taken from a public location to a secluded location.

    I've preached to both my wife and teenage daughter to pay attention to other people inparking lotsor if anyone follwed them from the store. I've really tried to pound the idea into them that they must fight and scream to their last breath right there in the parking lot, including if the person trying to take them is armed.

    Whatever you do, you can't allow yourself to be taken from the scene and that would have been the thought that was at the very front of my mind in this particular circumstance and would have kept me motivated.

    Sometimes you have to trust your instincts and these people doing this action are partially responsible as well.

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    I work the 3 to midnight shift. About a year and a half ago I went out to pick up lunch and half way back to work I witnessed what I thought was an abduction. An adult male chased down a teen age girl and took her by force to a car parked along side the road. He then pulled out and stopped at a traffic light. I had already dialed 911 on my cell and was sitting one car back and to his right. I wrote down the license number and got ready to follow and keep the cops informed of the location and direction he drove. A cop finally arrived and I honked and waved him over and pointed out the car as the driver made a left after the second light we encountered changed. The cop responding pulled the guy over and I pulled in behind the cop along with a car behind me with a woman who also saw what happened.

    Turned out the girl was grounded and had left the house and her father went looking for her and had found her. He was the one who had grabbed her. The cop came back to inform me everything was okay and thanked us for our concern for the girl. I felt bad for making the call especially since the cop said the father had a suspended license and I got the impression he was waiting for his seargent to get there to see if he was going to have to ticket the father and arrest him for driving with a suspended. But, I would do it again in a heartbeat because it could have been a real kidnapping.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    mobeewan wrote:
    I felt bad for making the call especially since the cop said the father had a suspended license and I got the impression he was waiting for his seargent to get there to see if he was going to have to ticket the father and arrest him for driving with a suspended. But, I would do it again in a heartbeat because it could have been a real kidnapping.
    Why feel bad about doing the right thing? Dad made the decision to drive on a suspended license in order to get his kid back home before she got (herself) into more trouble than just breaking being grounded. That's something he can take up with the judge, and there is a legal theory of competing necessities that can be used to excuse his willful violation of the law in that instance.

    The point is you saw something that did not look right and took enough action to get the situation checked out, without acting in an overly extreme way such as drawing down on Daddy. I'll bet that deep down in his heart he was glad that at least two folks were concerned enough about his daughter to call the cops and have the situiation checked out.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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